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 Posted - November 19 2011 : 4:19:01 PM
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*I hope this becomes a topic for photos of our Camelback type locomotives. A place some could go to see what trains of this type look like. Not a place to pat a person on the back, or say I want one, where did you get it, Oh I like the color, That is such a different locomotive. And all the other niceties involved with written communication. If you want to talk PM the person. Here is just a place for the photo, and info on a particular camelback. Or if you have information on the particular locomotive, or model train, to help the poster of the photo and those here at the Tyco Forum. If a photo does move you enough, or your interest in the engine is great. Please PM the person who has posted the photo with your statement or question.
Frank
drawing of a P&R 4-4-0 camelback #411
toptrain
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Edited by - toptrain on December 31 2015 08:58:50 AM
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Posted - November 19 2011 : 4:28:58 PM
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My first post. I'll will find a defination for a Camelback, Mother Hubbard, Center cab. or Teakettle.
Found in the Wipidepia Encycolpedia ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camelback_locomotive
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on November 19 2011 4:48:06 PM
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Posted - November 19 2011 : 4:58:10 PM
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my only camelback (mother hubbard) ken
Edited by - catfordken on November 19 2011 5:03:15 PM
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Posted - November 19 2011 : 5:06:08 PM
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* The first Camel back I owned was of a 0-4-0 type. It was made of all metal. A die cast locomotive with a brass fireman's shelter. The tender was also made of this same cast metal. The second one I got was almost the same. The Tender was different. It has a all brass tender. I dont have a photo of either of my old locomotive. I have one of the original locomotives. the one with the brass tender. I will have to dig it out for the loco and its drive are in a parts box and the tender on my work bench. It is there for a future project.
* The type has been spoken of here on more than one occasion.
* What happened to one of them was a rebuild. The Boiler was used and the drive discarded to the parts box. The cast tender fell appart and was thrown out. I kitbashed a Tyco 0-6-0 drive into the locomotive. Then took a standard Tyco switcher tender and shortned it. Then added some detail. It was my yard switcher for 15 years.
Frank
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Posted - November 19 2011 : 6:04:08 PM
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My only Camelback, Mantua...
Mike
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Posted - November 19 2011 : 7:58:19 PM
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Here's a Mehano 2-6-0 Camelback in CPR. It was sold in one of the President's Choice trains sets.
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Posted - November 20 2011 : 11:03:18 AM
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Here are a couple of my Mantua Goats:
Currently listed:
On display in my office:
My parts locomotives:
Sean
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Posted - November 20 2011 : 3:19:15 PM
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A newer type mantua 0-4-0c CNJ #1022
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Posted - November 30 2011 : 10:30:49 PM
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This is the 0-6-0c version of the newer Mantua camelback.
frank
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Posted - December 02 2011 : 7:57:48 PM
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quote:* A up detailed Mantua Pacific Camelback. It has a new pilot. A new headlight. New compressors and piping. Some new piping on the right side.
frank
Originally posted by toptrain - December 02 2011 : 7:21:08 PM
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Nice job Frank!
Sean
"If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti!
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Posted - December 04 2011 : 09:44:26 AM
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Thanks Sean. But all I did was Buy it. It was redetailed in 4 places. Water ejectors on one side. The compressors on the other. Boiler front. And the pilot. Do you know who makes pilots like that one. It says 1910 -1920. A type I like but cant find. A cow catcher that extends out but still has a spot for a modern coupler. Good for double heading. I have 2 similar that are part of a pair of MDC 4-4-2 frames. Cast as part of the frame. I may be cutting one off for the Reading 4-4-4 I am doing.
frank
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Edited by - toptrain on December 04 2011 09:46:27 AM
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Posted - December 04 2011 : 09:59:41 AM
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frank did you check here ken
http://greenwayproducts.com/storeroom/brass/brass_corner/pilots_snowPlows.html
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Posted - December 04 2011 : 11:27:23 AM
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I remember when I lived in NJ, I was obsessed with Camel Backs!
You should get one of those giant ERie 0-8-8-0 CB's Frank!
Eventualy got over it, thank goodness.... 
-Gareth
-Gareth
"A is A"
-Aristotle
Law of Identification
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Posted - December 04 2011 : 1:29:09 PM
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Didn't Life-Like make a Old Time Teakettle loco?
I want one & a Camelback loco 
hey Toptrain that 2nd pic of the 4-6-2 Camelback The front trucks derailed Also the loco behind it has a sideways headlight & numberboard
What is the history on the Camelbacks  Aside the ICC banning them cause of safety isses
Edited by - microbusss on December 04 2011 1:50:48 PM
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Posted - December 06 2011 : 2:01:42 PM
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Here is a rare bird.
RDG 1176 camelback.
frank
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Posted - December 15 2011 : 1:22:38 PM
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Here's my HOTCO 4-6-0 Camelback. It's in perfect condition; the only thing that had rotted on them was the original archbar tender trucks, which were incorrect for this loco anyway. I drilled out a set of Bachmann talgo Reading style trucks for it, and added pickup wipers and Intermountain wheels.
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Posted - December 15 2011 : 2:47:40 PM
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Uhh How do you make one of these?
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Posted - December 17 2011 : 6:51:12 PM
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CNVIA ; WHY ARE ARE PUTING SENCELESS COMENTS ON THIS POST.? YOU ARE NOT ADDING TO ANYTHING. FRANK
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Posted - December 22 2011 : 10:45:15 AM
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About the end camelback production.
** Concerning the statement I have read in many Model Railroad magazines. About Camelback locomotives and the reason for there not be Manufactured after around 1910. The common thought, widely held by historians, is that the ICC ordered a end to the production of Camelback type locomotives early in the 20th century for safety reasons. The main given reason would be lack of communication between Engineer and Fireman. Well, no evidence of such a order has been uncovered. * * Camelback locomotives were used right to the end of steam. Three are still in existence now. One of them the 0-4-0 X Reading 1187 is being rebuilt to be run again. Estimates of the total number of camelback type produced range up to 3,000. The Reading actually converted several rear cab locomotives to
camelback type in the late 1920's. If there was a order any of this could not have been done.
** My info was found when reading " The Railway and Locomotive Historical Society" bulletin # 141. in a article starting on page 61. The article is "Wootten and the Reading Shops" by James Holton. The RHLS is the oldest Railroad Historical Society in this country. Page 69, part of the article is where the information is located. The article goes from page 61 to 76.
*** I would have to say that production stopped because of The association of the camelback to a older time. Modern looking locomotives were favored. Old looking designs lost favor. Still the Wootten fire boxed locomotives were made. Their ability to burn soft coal and the saving the railroads realized continued.
frank
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Posted - December 22 2011 : 11:41:05 AM
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quote: I used to play on that when I was a kid,The strasburg railroad used it until 1967 as it did not have enough power to pull their heavy trains according to their info. It now sits at the railroad museum of pennsylvania awaiting restoration.
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Posted - December 22 2011 : 12:32:53 PM
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quote:
I went there this past Summer and I actually saw this locomotive! I took a picture of it, but think it is on my old computer and cant access it on this one. I recall it not looking this good now.
Sean
Sean
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Posted - December 22 2011 : 1:02:01 PM
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quote: quote:
I went there this past Summer and I actually saw this locomotive! I took a picture of it, but think it is on my old computer and cant access it on this one. I recall it not looking this good now.
Sean
Originally posted by Mustangs_n_Trains - December 22 2011 : 12:32:53 PM
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No,its in pretty bad shape last time i saw it this past summer
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Posted - December 22 2011 : 2:17:36 PM
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quote: I used to play on that when I was a kid,The strasburg railroad used it until 1967 as it did not have enough power to pull their heavy trains according to their info. It now sits at the railroad museum of pennsylvania awaiting restoration.
Originally posted by royal blue - December 22 2011 : 11:41:05 AM
[/quote]
My Son steve was born in 1974, in this photo he is 9 or 10. The photo is taken on the property of the Strasburg railroad. So this engine was at the railroad in 83 or 84.
frank
Originally posted by toptrain - December 22 2011 : 2:04:26 PM
[/quote]I was born in 75 and thats about the same time as i played on that loco,it used to sit up front on the one track near the gift shop in a non-op status.Its heard they are going to restore it to operating status eventually ,i hope they do.thanks for posting these pics. J.
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Posted - December 22 2011 : 2:32:38 PM
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Geez Frank. All I wanted to know is how you make onew out of a regular steamer.
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Posted - December 22 2011 : 4:59:32 PM
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C-N-V-I-A, Why do I really believe that there is no truth to what you are saying. Could it be the after reading the over 1000 posts you have put here in such a short time, that they are full of nothing. This is a model train forum. Here a question off topic is done as a PM. This is not a forum for comics with no helpful statements, and intentionally misleading questions. If it is for the other, I am sure you will chase away all the modelers except for the most liberal of us.
* If you must ask your questions or make remark use the PM and stop filling threads with your style of posts. I would appreciate it if you wouldn't post in any thread that I start.
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on December 22 2011 5:06:11 PM
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Posted - December 22 2011 : 10:40:02 PM
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Frank, I always understood that they were outlawed because of danger to the crew if any of the side rods failed, which would ravage the cab. I have that old book on train wrecks that states that as the reason, though it could be wrong. I imagine it was also very risky for the fireman to move between the cab and the backhead under normal conditions, much less with snow and ice.
They certainly weren't the most comfortable for their crews. The cabs must have been stifling in the summer, with the engineer and fireman pressed up against the boiler like that.
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Posted - December 23 2011 : 04:49:27 AM
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quote:Frank, I always understood that they were outlawed because of danger to the crew if any of the side rods failed, which would ravage the cab. I have that old book on train wrecks that states that as the reason, though it could be wrong. I imagine it was also very risky for the fireman to move between the cab and the backhead under normal conditions, much less with snow and ice.
They certainly weren't the most comfortable for their crews. The cabs must have been stifling in the summer, with the engineer and fireman pressed up against the boiler like that.
Originally posted by NickelPlate759Â -Â December 22 2011Â :Â 10:40:02 PM
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"...they were outlawed because of danger to the crew if any of the side rods failed, which would ravage the cab."
This is true. Although, not so much for the smaller driver-wheeled locomotives, since their speeds were limited to 30-50mph. The side rods didn't have much swing if they came loose.
Not the same story to Camelbacks built to pull express trains. Bigger wheels meant faster speeds and wide circular-swinging rods... The fireman would be deaf and blind to any violence occuring to his co-workers astride the boiler. He'd keep shoveling until the train came to a stop.
The reason the camel-back locomotives were useful is/was because it could burn low-grade coal, anthrocite coal (spelling?), And for the fact that a wider firebox was needed, the fireman stayed at his own shelter behind the backhead so that he could better distribute the coal over a wider firebox. Most of the time, he seldom ever went to the "mid-cab".
The other danger to the camelbacks was that in case of a potential boiler explosion, the engineer had a longer fall from the window, if he actually had the chance to jump before the explosion. Communication WAS terrible between him and "boiler attendant" on the left side. There was NO safe access to the other side... it'd be good if your co-worker was a hated inlaw. The fireman to the rear would also be doomed because he's focussed only on his ability to keep the firebox fed... he'd be fortunate if there were a second set of pressure gauges at his "work-station" so he could monitor them besides poking his head around to see the smoke or wince trying to see what hand-signals the engineer or boiler attendant was giving.
John
I don't have a one track mind. It depends on the turn-out.
"I love your catenary!"
Is that a power-trip or just another pick-up line?
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Posted - December 23 2011 : 08:12:56 AM
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* Nelson, John,
* First anthracite was not low grade but hi grade coal oar.The highest ! It burned the hottest and the longest. It also burns the cleanest, with the least smoke. Wootten fire boxes were designed to burn anthracite Culm, waste coal. Because any coal culm burns very quickly, a loco burning culm wares out the fireman. A CNJ camelback class the K1, ( it was a 4-8-0w ) had 2 fireman assigned to trains. The Philadelphia and Reading when testing its first Camelback, a 4-6-0w no 408, had instructions from Wootten to burn just culm. The roundhouse supervisor, after seeing what was happening, for further tests changed to pea coal. This is still a cheaper grade of coal. After the success of a look alike 4-6-0w # 412 at the Paris, France exposition. All passenger trains burned only pea coal. Culm was used only in freight locos, but not on all.
*I am glad you picked up on this. A real response is a gratifying thing. With the Camelback it's early dangers were counterbalanced by some Camelback wootten boilered locomotive gains. Chief among them is the huge savings of using culm and pea coal. The safety aspect of having the superior view of the track ahead was also prominent on the list of plusses. The advent of Timken and their use of ball bearings instead of brass sleeves, with proper maintance, solved the side and main rod problem. But overzealous management always trying to move along repairs, always shorting the time a check, test ,or repair takes kept the danger of operating any steam locomotives high. Technology lessen the danger. Bad management increased it. Still the government, the ICC, never issued a order to stop manufacturing Camelbacks. The ICC did have something to say about giving the fireman a set of pressure gauges to monitor boiler pressure. This did happen. Remember, company policy told the fireman what he could do with this information . Again historians for years made comments about railroad policies without ever seeing written confirmation of orders on rules. Engineers knew they had to run on time.
* As to safety at speeds. Camelbacks in freight rolls were mainly plodding behemoths of the drag age. Double and triple heading slow moving freight trains with 2-8-0c and 4-8-0c were the norm. CNJs mikes did a lot of work but the camelbacks did more. It wasn't until multiple diesels lash ups started pulling freight that the speed increased. * On passenger trains on the Reading and CNJ in the 30's and 40's the Camelbacks ruled. They both had rear cab pacific's. The Reading more of them. The Reading also had more Passenger trains. The camelbacks didn't go away and remained . As to their being a 50MPH speed restriction. Schedules were maintained and trains were on time. To do this the 50 couldn't have been.
* I wonder how the old railroads safety records would compare if matched up against our modern trains. Trains still crashed.
frank
toptrain
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Edited by - toptrain on February 11 2014 1:54:39 PM
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Posted - December 23 2011 : 8:20:36 PM
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Frank, interesting point about the roller bearings and proper maintenance. As for the pressure gauges, it's hard to believe management didn't put them on the backhead to begin with. It couldn't have been easy to know how much coal to shovel without immediate feedback, having to rely on hand signals from the engineer instead.
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Posted - December 23 2011 : 10:06:14 PM
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I read some where once railroaders of the time had called them widow-makers due to the fact of the cab's placement. Were wooten fire boxes used on non-camel back engines?
" Heck with counting 'em rivets, TRAINS ARE FOR FUN! Not called the Mad Scientist for nothing either!"
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Posted - December 24 2011 : 11:19:46 AM
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cnj m2 and m3s had wooten style fireboxes,used for heavy freight,g3/4 pacifics also had them,the blue comet being a famous one,but it seems only cnj used them,cannot find reference to any others ken
http://www.homauchchunk.co.uk/2-8-2wr.htm
frank this loco a p7 and the mantua one at top of the page of site,are they wooten fireboxes
/tyco/forum/uploaded/catfordken/20111228104156_p7.jpg
Edited by - catfordken on December 28 2011 10:42:08 AM
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Posted - December 28 2011 : 12:59:45 PM
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quote:cnj m2 and m3s had wooten style fireboxes,used for heavy freight,g3/4 pacifics also had them,the blue comet being a famous one,but it seems only cnj used them,cannot find reference to any others ken
http://www.homauchchunk.co.uk/2-8-2wr.htm
frank this loco a p7 and the mantua one at top of the page of site,are they wooten fireboxes
Ken : Yes it is. The wooten Firebox.
frank
Originally posted by catfordken - December 24 2011 : 11:19:46 AM
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toptrain
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Edited by - toptrain on February 16 2012 3:11:41 PM
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Posted - December 28 2011 : 1:01:52 PM
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| frank you posted my listing,but no comments ken
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Posted - December 28 2011 : 1:26:34 PM
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Ken This P7 and its 3 other P7s are thethe direct result of the reworking of the C1s 4-4-4 class into them. They had wootten fireboxes. I have mentioned them in a article I am doing on the C1 class backdateing from these very P7 class.
As to other rear cab wootten fireboxed locomotives. The Reading developed the Wootten and almost all their steam right up to the T1 4-8-4 had them.
as to Reading rear cab wootten here is a 0-6-0, I have photos of 4-4-0s, 2-8-0s, 4-6-2s, 2-8-2s and 4-8-4s all with rear cabs. The DL&W also had them.
/tyco/forum/uploaded/toptrain/20111228132919_LC22-0113-1b.jpg
quote:cnj m2 and m3s had wooten style fireboxes,used for heavy freight,g3/4 pacifics also had them,the blue comet being a famous one,but it seems only cnj used them,cannot find reference to any others ken
http://www.homauchchunk.co.uk/2-8-2wr.htm
frank this loco a p7 and the mantua one at top of the page of site,are they wooten fireboxes
Originally posted by catfordken - December 24 2011 : 11:19:46 AM
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toptrain
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Edited by - toptrain on December 28 2011 1:34:35 PM
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Posted - December 29 2011 : 12:42:40 AM
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Not to get too far OT, but Justin here's a Reading 2-8-8-0 with a Wooten firebox. I wonder if anyone made these in brass.
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Posted - December 29 2011 : 09:07:58 AM
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Nelson I never seen a photo of that loco type. Always seen the 2-8-8-2s. I dont think they had to many 2-8-8-0s. I like the twin front sand boxes on the front of the boiler. That is hade to do because the front drive articulates. A solid pipe would break. You need some kind of flexable pipe.
frank
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Posted - December 29 2011 : 09:24:32 AM
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the certainly did make the n1 class locos in brass,daiyoung made it ken
n1 2-8-8-0
n1 2-8-8-2 this is how they started,but in the 40s the trailing trucks were removed as above
Edited by - catfordken on December 29 2011 11:01:43 AM
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Posted - December 29 2011 : 7:54:50 PM
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Thanks for finding those, Ken... awesome models. I guess they removed the trailing truck to gain a little TE. It's an interesting prototype because the boiler looks way too short for the frame, giving it a big front porch.
Frank, check out the website for some other Reading photos.
http://www.schuylkillhavenhistory.com/RAILROADS.html
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Edited by - NickelPlate759 on December 29 2011 7:55:35 PM
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Posted - January 15 2012 : 10:28:19 AM
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The Mantua Mikado Camelback CNJ 1608. It has become a LV N1
frank
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on November 11 2012 09:39:12 AM
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Posted - February 16 2012 : 3:23:57 PM
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I have a 4-6-0 camelback that was a bunch of parts and a spare body. It became CNJ 645
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on November 11 2012 09:38:06 AM
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Posted - February 16 2012 : 3:49:55 PM
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I got this gem in pieces and now I'm trying to get the rest of the parts to put it back in service.
I need the valve gear hanger and valve gear. I have some of the valve gear but need the rest.
I also need a head light.
Under the paint I see #59 on the bottom plate it says newone model Tokyo Japan
FIDDLEHEAD RAILWAY CO.
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Posted - February 16 2012 : 4:10:42 PM
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One more project. I'm trying to build this
Into a hopped up version of this
FIDDLEHEAD RAILWAY CO.
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Posted - February 16 2012 : 4:33:26 PM
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Frank
Is that a spare you would sell??
Ken
FIDDLEHEAD RAILWAY CO.
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Posted - April 03 2012 : 6:08:57 PM
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NICE guys! Anyone have a spare Camelback cab lkike that on the Mantua 0-4-0 or 0-6-0, in plastic? And possibly the firemans shelter as well?
If so, what might you want for it, cash, or trade welcome!
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - April 04 2012 : 3:18:09 PM
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quote:NICE guys! Anyone have a spare Camelback cab lkike that on the Mantua 0-4-0 or 0-6-0, in plastic? And possibly the firemans shelter as well?
If so, what might you want for it, cash, or trade welcome!
Originally posted by EM-1Â -Â April 03 2012Â :Â 6:08:57 PM
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* No matter what loco you model if it isn't the Mantua camelback, you will have to make 2 new walls. the front and rear. These are the hardest to make. The roof and side walls are easy.
* Go to Google E-Books. Search the railroad you wish to model. a lot of unnecessary thing will come up in the general search. It may take awile to find what you are looking for. if you know the wheel arangement and railroad try that search. You need to find a drawing for the loco you want to model. Once you have that a scale drawing can be made from it. From the HO scale drawing you can make a template to trace the cab walls for you model and build what you need from sheet plastic. the hardest part is getting the drawing.
Frank
Frank
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
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Posted - April 06 2012 : 12:31:40 AM
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Frank,
Now I know where that PM came from LOL I was like hmmmmmm where did I post that about the camelback cab and firemans shelter!
As for your reply now, I have the drawing of the original model I plan to model, I can litterally make the existing Mantua cab fit the boiler I have with little difficulty! Thing is finding one of them to do it with!
As for the prototype, I plan to model a B&O E-18 "Vauclain" compound 2-8-0 Camelback, which if you look at one, the cylinders look like they are upside down! I have the entire locomotive (regular 2-8-0), that I want to use to build this beast!
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
Edited by - EM-1 on April 06 2012 12:51:23 AM
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Posted - April 06 2012 : 07:12:09 AM
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John ; I hope you can post a photo or a link to a photo of the E-18. I cant invision upside cylinders.
frank
North East rails has this unowned photo of a B&O E -18 Vulcan compound. There are 3 differentt potos of the class. This is the only unowned one. It isnt a camelback. Looks more like a MDC old time 2-8-0.
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo1937s.jpg
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on April 06 2012 07:21:11 AM
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Posted - April 06 2012 : 07:35:38 AM
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John, when I think about Camelback Vulcan compound Locomotives this cylinder arangement is what I think of.
Frank
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on November 11 2012 08:20:36 AM
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Posted - April 06 2012 : 10:35:58 AM
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Frank,
That would be the Vauclain cylinders I was thinking of, but in the pictures I could find, the cylinders were at such a distance, they didn't look right, BUT in my "B&O Power" motive power roster book in black and white at a distance, thats the cylinders, so they look MUCH better then my "upside down" comment posted above!
Thats the ones I plan to model my Camelback to be! I'll have to have a look at the northeast railfan website its been awhile since I was over there looking around!
Thanks for the "up close" of those!
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - April 06 2012 : 10:46:01 AM
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When the Royal Blue ws started. The CNJ and Reading recieved from Baldwin Vulcan Compound Locomotices to power it. The CNJ and Reading had camelbacks and the B&O had this.
/tyco/forum/uploaded/toptrain/20120406110623_4-4-0 2b BO.jpg
After the B&O seen how the CNJ and Reading compound locomotives out preformed there standard they got this
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo1450s.jpg
A Vulcan compound Alantic. There may be a camel back. The B&O's only class of Camelback 2-8-0's were the E-19. It wasn't a Vulcan compound. Neither were to photos of the E-18s I seen. For some reason they were listed as Vulcan compounds
frank
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on April 06 2012 11:09:44 AM
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Posted - April 06 2012 : 11:28:07 AM
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2 Vauclain compound camelbacks ken
/tyco/forum/uploaded/catfordken/20120406112736_Vauclain.jpg
/tyco/forum/uploaded/catfordken/20120406112755_Vauclain2.jpg
and a link to a b&o one
http://www.vintagepostcards.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=VPC&Product_Code=TRANRA-J3643&Category_Code=TRANRA
Edited by - catfordken on April 06 2012 11:32:05 AM
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