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smitty9999
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 Posted - December 08 2010 :  11:16:13 PM Link directly to this topic  Show Profile  Add smitty9999 to Buddylist
Hi Everyone,

H had an idea and I figure I should throw it out there to the Tyco universe.

Has anyone attempted to have 2 drive motors in one engine? It doesn't seem like it would be very difficult to do and it may yield better performance.

Thanks

-Matthew-
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AMC_Gremlin_GT
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quote:
Hi Everyone,

H had an idea
Has anyone attempted to have 2 drive motors in one engine? It doesn't seem like it would be very difficult to do and it may yield better performance.

Thanks

Originally posted by smitty9999 - December 08 2010 :  11:16:13 PM



The problem with dual motors is that invariably, one of them has more power than the other, so one is always dragging, and the other one is always pulling harder. With DCC, you can MU your engines, and set the CV values so that the power bands match at the same throttle settings. With analog engines, it all depends on how well they're built, and can you find a matched pair? I don't think you can easily, judging by the fact that seemingly NO manufacturer offers a dual motor engine from low to high-end manufacturer. There's a reason they don't, because it's too hard to make it work. It's easier to make a dual DRIVE system, rather than a dual engine system. So while it seems like a good idea, matching the power outputs has been too much to overcome to make it easily feasible.

Jerry

" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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smitty9999
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 Posted - December 09 2010 :  01:29:14 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add smitty9999 to Buddylist
Thanks for the info. This saves me a lot of headache.
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toptrain
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 Posted - December 09 2010 :  08:18:16 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add toptrain to Buddylist
quote:
Thanks for the info. This saves me a lot of headache.

Originally posted by smitty9999 - December 09 2010 :  01:29:14 AM



Hey, what headach ? People were dual motoring Tyco-Mantua F7s for years. Drives were sold seperatly for this purpose. They ran all right. You must make sure that both drives have their feeds paralleled so as to prevent poor pickup at frogs and points from affacting drive profermance. The irratic drive proformance of stock single drives with one dirty axel at insulated frogs is elimated. Now you need 2 dirty axels on the same drive truck to cause this problum.
frank

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microbusss
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sounds neat there toptrain Wish I could do that to my CofSF E-7 loco
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NickelPlate759
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Franks' right. Here's the exploded parts sheet from a Tyco double-motored F9.

http://www.hoseeker.org/assemblyexplosiontyco/tyco226f9apg2.jpg

The MU-2 trucks were built well enough that they should run at pretty consistent speeds, so long as their properly lubed and the brushes and commutators are clean and oil free. The most common cause of speed variations and spongy performance is oil soaked brushes.

The Powertorque trucks were another matter, because they were so erratic that they tended to buck one another. I tried to balance out two PT's in a Shark I had many years ago, but eventually the pinions started wearing and loosening up on the motor shafts due to one truck pulling or pushing the other.

Nelson

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toptrain
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 Posted - December 10 2010 :  6:29:57 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add toptrain to Buddylist

[quote]The MU-2 trucks were built well enough that they should run at pretty consistent speeds, so long as their properly lubed and the brushes and commutators are clean and oil free. The most common cause of speed variations and spongy performance is oil soaked brushes.

The Powertorque trucks were another matter, because they were so erratic that they tended to buck one another. I tried to balance out two PT's in a Shark I had many years ago, but eventually the pinions started wearing and loosening up on the motor shafts due to one truck pulling or pushing the other.[end quote]

Nelson it is common to see a pair of PT drives in a tyco GG1
frank

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Edited by - toptrain on December 10 2010 9:38:23 PM
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tkruger
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 Posted - December 10 2010 :  9:39:15 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add tkruger to Buddylist
quote:
quote:
Hi Everyone,

H had an idea
Has anyone attempted to have 2 drive motors in one engine? It doesn't seem like it would be very difficult to do and it may yield better performance.

Thanks

Originally posted by smitty9999 - December 08 2010 :  11:16:13 PM



The problem with dual motors is that invariably, one of them has more power than the other, so one is always dragging, and the other one is always pulling harder. With DCC, you can MU your engines, and set the CV values so that the power bands match at the same throttle settings. With analog engines, it all depends on how well they're built, and can you find a matched pair? I don't think you can easily, judging by the fact that seemingly NO manufacturer offers a dual motor engine from low to high-end manufacturer. There's a reason they don't, because it's too hard to make it work. It's easier to make a dual DRIVE system, rather than a dual engine system. So while it seems like a good idea, matching the power outputs has been too much to overcome to make it easily feasible.

Jerry

Originally posted by AMC_Gremlin_GT - December 08 2010 :  11:45:12 PM



Athearn did make a dual motor Blue Box engine. The DD-40 runs well. I have two and both are great pullers. The trick is that the motors have to both be kept in good condition. They are wired together and connected together with a central drive shaft. The down side to these locos is that they are huge, 8 wheel trucks. I have found out the hard way that both motors have to be serviced together. The ones with the open (wider) Athearn motors are loud.

Edited by - tkruger on December 10 2010 9:40:18 PM
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microbusss
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sounds neat there tkruger Got pix of those DD-40s?
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AF Kid
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 Posted - December 11 2010 :  8:01:25 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add AF Kid to Buddylist
Gotta disagree with you AMC. I have several original Tyco and Mantua Double motor F7/9's.
They are original factory per the original box. They run well. The DD40's as previously stated run especially well when they have the flywheels attached. A few months ago I made a Tyco double motor Shark using some junker MU engines I had laying around. After some tinkering it runs well. The only draw back to a double motor is that it is a little slower due to the power draw is twice that of a single motor engine. It can be done....

I can post some pic of Athearn DD40's tomorrow.....

Edited by - AF Kid on December 11 2010 8:08:41 PM
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AMC_Gremlin_GT
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quote:
Gotta disagree with you AMC. I have several original Tyco and Mantua Double motor F7/9's.
They run well. ...The only draw back to a double motor is that it is a little slower due to the power draw is twice that of a single motor engine. It can be done....

Originally posted by AF Kid - December 11 2010 :  8:01:25 PM



Well, all I can say is, if they worked so well, why isn't the market flooded with dual-motored engines? Namely because they must not work WELL enough to justify the higher expense of a second motor, and with 5-pole skew-wound motors they came up with a better engine, and reliability, so why hassle with a second motor and matching power bands? The market determines what succeeds and what fails. Sure, dual motor engines exist, but they didn't overpower the market for some reason. I've never seen one personally, so with all the Tyco engines on Ebay, and they're not that common or I would have seen them advertised, I guess that means they weren't that successful, from either cost, operational, or production reasons. How many new engines coming out now are dual motored? I've never researched it, myself, but I don't see them advertised, so the gain in performance must not be worth the trade-off in expense of production or operation. Maybe they work, but not well enough for them to take over the market. So, why bother?

Jerry

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NickelPlate759
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Jerry, I think it was a combination of cost / price point and mechanical factors.

The problem with the MU-2 and PT trucks is that they were designed to do all of the pulling with 4 or 6 wheels, using traction tires to make up for the unpowered truck. Since traction tires have much better adhesion, speed differences in the two motors become an issue when they're working together, with the faster one laboring hard to pull the train and it's slower counterpart. The brushes & commutators in MU-2's were exposed to slinging lubricants from the gear and bearing on the brush end if over-lubed, and being riveted together with sideframes permanently attached weren't the easiest to service and clean for the average user, assuming they even knew to do so. The commutator on the PT motor was virtually impossible to keep oil free.

The Athearn DD40 was a different animal. It benefitted from 2 motors because of it's size, since the prototype was essentially 2 smaller diesels on one frame, and the Athearn motors were a literal snap to service & tune. Another important difference is that all wheels were powered without need for traction tires, so slippage could occur if there were small speed variations between the two motors without causing overheating, or damage to the drive train. It wasn't really any different from lashing two or more Athearn diesels together in a consist.

When I double-motored my PT Shark, I started out with one truck that was consistently faster, so I used a a few diodes to drop the voltage to it and got them to run about the same speed. This worked fine until the fast truck started to become sluggish due to the oil issue. The differences were often extreme - one would be screaming and trying to move the train, while the other barely turned. After that trying to keep them clean and balance them so that the engine would run properly became like sawing the legs off a table, and I scrapped the whole project. It ran very well for a while and pulled every car I had, but it didn't last. As I recall, the loco ended up in the round file circa 1981.

A better way to do this with either style Tyco truck would be to replace the traction tire wheels with standard ones, then weight the engine for better traction. It would be interesting to try with MU-2's, especially with the all brass wheels from a trolley.

quote:

Nelson it is common to see a pair of PT drives in a tyco GG1

Originally posted by toptrain - December 10 2010 : 6:29:57 PM



As manufactured, or modified later?

Nelson

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catfordken
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for the dc people out there who want more power from a single loco,a dual motor seems a cheaper option than switching to dcc which with all its benefits,is an expensive one for those who have lots of older dc models,on the other hand if you are just starting up a layout and buying your first set dcc is the way forward,more so as bachmann dcc locos are very cheap albeit basic chips,just thought i would throw in my pennies worth,ken
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AF Kid
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The top engine is a single motor DD40.

The middle pic is a earlier DD40 with the larger flywheels.

The pic is a DD40 with the newer motors and smaller flywheels.

These are all Athearn DD40's.

Actually, I have a Tyco 60's SF double motor F9 I got off of Ebay. The harder ones to find are the powered "B" units with the box marked as such. I agree with the other posters that double motor engines didn't sell well because of the cost.

Edited by - AF Kid on December 13 2010 12:00:10 AM
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AMC_Gremlin_GT
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quote:


I agree with the other posters that double motor engines didn't sell well because of the cost.

Originally posted by AF Kid - December 12 2010 :  11:53:45 PM



Another reason is that for most smaller engines, there's little enough extra room, and especially steam engines. where would you PUT a second motor? And the DD40 diesel probably has limited appeal, being used as both an experimental testbed and long-haul specialist, not a bread-and-butter locomotive, and limited to the UP railroad it seems. So most modelers wouldn't or couldn't use a monster like the DDA40 on their layouts anyway. My AC4400's are long enough as it is, although I wouldn't mind a Centipede myself, doubt it'd run on any layout I use, either. As for the older Tyco F9s with double motors, I've been combing Ebay and Modeltrainsyard.com this weekend for any mention of those, and have yet to see one. So either they're all collected up, or just rare as Florida Penquins or Polar parrots. I'd like to get my hands on one someday to check it out. But I won't lose any sleep over dual-motors. Gee, think twin 4-cylinders in a car are as good as a strong V-8? Eh....

Jerry

" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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farace
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quote:
Gee, think twin 4-cylinders in a car are as good as a strong V-8? Eh....


Interestingly enough, Alfa Romeo in the '30s experimented with two twin-motor race cars, dubbed the "Bimotore." One had twin eight-cylinder engines side by side, the other had one engine in front and one in the rear. They showed some promise, but Alfa never continued with development because they were very hard on tires and of course used more fuel than a single engine. It's hard to win if you're constantly visiting the pits. Of note, though, is that Tazio Nuvolari set a new land speed record with a Bimotore at 226 mph. Pretty good for 1935!
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AF Kid
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Here are two pics of my original Tyco SF F9 which has a double motor. Notice that the MU trucks are metal and not blue. This indicates that it is circa the early 60's.




Edited by - AF Kid on December 14 2010 10:48:15 PM
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AMC_Gremlin_GT
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quote:
Here are two pics of my original Tyco SF F9 which has a double motor. Notice that the MU trucks are metal and not blue. This indicates that it is circa the early 60's.


Originally posted by AF Kid - December 14 2010 :  10:47:22 PM



I'll have to keep an eye out for one of these. I looked at the last two shows last weekend,and found none with the double motor trucks.

Jerry

" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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NickelPlate759
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So how well does that beastie run, AF?
Nelson

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AF Kid
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 Posted - December 16 2010 :  10:44:32 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add AF Kid to Buddylist
It runs pretty good.

This is sad..... My layout is a 4 foot long test track, as I don't have room for a layout.

The pics below are of a Tyco Rock Island Shark, that I converted to a double motor. The front motor frame has to be contoured to fit the inside of the shell.





/Pete

Edited by - AF Kid on December 16 2010 9:21:01 PM
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JohnnyKane
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quote:
Interestingly enough, Alfa Romeo in the '30s experimented with two twin-motor race cars, dubbed the "Bimotore." One had twin eight-cylinder engines side by side, the other had one engine in front and one in the rear. They showed some promise, but Alfa never continued with development because they were very hard on tires and of course used more fuel than a single engine. It's hard to win if you're constantly visiting the pits. Of note, though, is that Tazio Nuvolari set a new land speed record with a Bimotore at 226 mph. Pretty good for 1935!


Originally posted by farace - December 13 2010 :  10:56:18 AM



FWIW- There were a few Cadillacs with a motor in the front and the rear...
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/00q3/mosler_twinstar_eldorado-specialty_file

/tyco/forum/uploaded/JohnnyKane/mosler_twinstar.jpg

Edited by - JohnnyKane on December 16 2010 10:52:50 AM
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AMC_Gremlin_GT
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quote:

Actually, .... The harder ones to find are the powered "B" units with the box marked as such.

Originally posted by AF Kid - December 12 2010 :  11:53:45 PM



Are the shells metal or plastic? I found a B unit searching through Modeltrainsyard.com, the shell is cracked badly on one end. They said it was all metal, but it sure looks like plastic. And it has black metal truck bases, with the raised portions for gears on each truck, and riveted. Thinking about bidding on it. Already at 4.25

Jerry

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AF Kid
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The early Tyco Shark type diesel were metal... like a die-cast.

All of the Tyco F9's were made of plastic. I also have a Brown Box era SF Freight double motor engine.

Recently, there was a Shark motorized "B" unit on Ebay and it sold for $32 I think.

Edited by - AF Kid on December 17 2010 01:25:18 AM
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AMC_Gremlin_GT
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I just bid and won on a metal Mantua C&O B unit, and it appears to have dual motors, judging by the bulges on the bottom of the trucks. I missed the A unit, though. Oh well. It only had bulges for the gears on one truck. should be interesting to see what I get in the mail.

Jerry

" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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AMC_Gremlin_GT
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Here's my B unit acquisition. The shell has taken a beating, but it does have two motors. I haven't tried it yet.



Due to the shape of the shell, I may transplant it to another Mantua shell, when I find one with the screw-down holders. the end of this B unit is broken out, and would be a challenge to fix, much as I like the C&O livery. But at least I found one of these rare and reclusive units, from someone on Ebay that had no idea what it was, so I got it for around $10.

Jerry

" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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AF Kid
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Nice Pick..... Your best bet is a SF shell- passenger or freight. A Rio Grande shell would be a good project also as they were made only in the Red Box era.
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AMC_Gremlin_GT
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quote:
Nice Pick..... Your best bet is a SF shell- passenger or freight. A Rio Grande shell would be a good project also as they were made only in the Red Box era.

Originally posted by AF Kid - December 26 2010 :  12:48:52 AM



Ha, funny you should mention SF...I found I had a Mantua F3? dummy A unit while searching thru my parts yesterday, in good shape. I think I'd gotten it along with some Varney shells I'd bought. So I think that will be my prime candidate for the transplant now. Yehaw!

Jerry

" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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