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 Posted - November 12 2009 : 1:59:58 PM
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last night i got out a few trains to run & tinker with. two of them were new in the box engines. one Santa Fe c630 with directional lighting & the other a rock island c430. both new in the box. i pulled them out of their box, put one drop of oil on the bearing on the brush plate, & another drop on the pinion gear. i run the rock island first for about five minutes in forward with the power pack about half way open, then I started running it in reverse. About two minutes into it, I started smelling the famous "your powertorque is now trash" smell. I did the same thing with the c630 & it did almost identical to the first. I've use several different types of oil over the years & have just never had any luck at all with a power torque drive. i sold my colection of tyco about five years ago because of this. how do you guys have any luck with them? i just don't get it. i did run my golden eagle that i converted with a ps2 tray motor for about a half hour with no problems at all. i guess i'll be converting these two as well.
jerry
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Posted - November 12 2009 : 2:28:40 PM
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One problem I have with the PT design is the vent holes in the block are great places for excess oil to leak or get slung into the armature.
Next time you oil one, try removing the pinion gear and put the oil in the bearing behind it. A "drop" might even be too much... try a toothpick touch. Don't put the oil near the face of the gear or on the teeth. And don't oil *anything* beyond the bearing surfaces.... use grease for the rest.
Most of mine run OK, and I don't always lubricate them. I've been pretty fortunate that I've only killed maybe two, and resurrected more than that.
More critical than lubricating the armature shaft, is cleaning the grease out of the rest of the gears. Old grease dries up and causes excessive resistance which leads to overheating, in extreme cases this snaps the shaft pins right off the block. Most of my teardowns are strictly to eliminate old grease. But if a pin gets broke, forget about it.
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Posted - November 12 2009 : 6:18:13 PM
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I think those 2 locos are begging for a ps2 tray motor transplant.
Ray
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Posted - November 12 2009 : 7:04:36 PM
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Smokie - You did use model train oil - right? 3-N-1 oil will burn a Tyco up -- speaking from experience
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Posted - November 12 2009 : 8:42:40 PM
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hey Ray, i'm way a head of you. i replaced both motors today. i did the rock island first, & while i was doing the santa fe c630, i let the rock island run. it ran for about two hours on half throttle. after i finished the other, i let it run for a little over an hour. both run great "now". that makes six i've done so far. all have no issues yet, "knock on wood".
brian, i've used model train oil, 3-n-1 oil, & even 10w-30 motor oil. i think goingincircles has it right. out of all that i've smoked & converted, all had oil on the brushes, & comuter when i took them apart for the new motor. i've always used a drop, but i think that is way to much. i have five that still have the power torques in them. i'm going to take one apart, clean it, & & try a very small toothpicks worth of oil on it & go from there. at least there not just junk anymore, at least i can give them a new life with the ps2 tray motor..
jerry
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Posted - November 15 2009 : 7:55:27 PM
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well i took three 630's apart today. i took the brush plates off, sprayed everything down with carb cleaner (not the plastic parts), blew everything dry, put them back together & added just one drop of oil on both the front & back where the shafts come through. instead of a toothpick i used a small .025" dia. wire. they all run pretty good, not as good as the tray motors, but still pretty decent.
i've noticed out of all the PT's i've fried, all have had the brush springs overheated. when they overheat, they lose their tention & lose contact with the brushes. the smell is more than likely the oil burning off the comuter, & the springs getting cooked. i've took those fried power torques & cleaned everything off, & stretched the springs back out to about a quarter inch, put them back together, & they ran again. with the right springs i believe they could be rebuilt, if someone wanted to.
on the ps2 tray motor awaps i've been doing, i noticed today the weight of the engine is the limiting factor on pulling power. they just don't weigh enough to pull real long trains. they slip to much. i had one today pulling 16 cars & i could tell there was a traction problem. what are the weights made of that come in the tyco's? i think about three or four ounces of lead would really help the tractive effort.
jerry
Edited by - smokie on November 17 2009 9:35:27 PM
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Posted - November 16 2009 : 04:37:38 AM
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Most of the weights are steel. Lead works equally well. Smokie - you've got my address - if you can send me a spring from a Powertorque I'll look to see if I can find some replacements and stock up.
Rus
Starting my Tyco and other favorites collection over again after 37 years.
My still in progress list of inventory and wantlist: tyconut.com
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Posted - November 16 2009 : 3:18:46 PM
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Smokie, you did exactly what I wanted to recommend, but I didn't have the time to type it out when I first read this. The bearing on the brush side is about 1mm away from the brushes, and it's almost impossible to keep it from slinging. Like you discovered, you have to put much less than a drop on the brush side bearing to keep it to a minimum.
I think it's the ratio of motor torque vs. commutator diameter -- these motors are low torque, but the commutators are a larger diameter than any can motor, and they get layered with burned oil -- can you say disc brake?   I didn't even think of the springs burning up, but that makes sense... they can't handle the stall current. I wonder if a slightly thicker spring would work without loading down the motor too much.
Anyway, congrats!
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - November 16 2009 : 8:45:19 PM
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While repowering a GP20 (see the repower thread) I came across this very problem. I needed wheels with traction tires, so I decided to swap with a non-functional sharknose that I'm saving for a later project.
The sharknose looks new and is in the original box. The first thing I noticed, though, was an oil stain on the styrofoam insert. When I opened up the truck to take out the wheels, the axles were dripping with oil. It was absolutely a mess. Somebody had just poured it in. I guess that's why it doesn't run anymore.
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Posted - November 16 2009 : 10:00:56 PM
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i wonder if any of the slot car brush springs would work? i wouldn't want to go much stiffer on the springs, but i would guess a little wouldn't hurt. i've stretched old burnt springs & reused them & it will work like that, but it's not the ideal way to do it.
jerry
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Posted - November 17 2009 : 12:17:55 AM
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quote:i wonder if any of the slot car brush springs would work?
Originally posted by smokie-November 16 2009: 10:00:56 PM
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They would work, but I don't know of any slot cars that were made with coil springs. The Aurora T-Jet and AFX cars had sprung contacts under the chassis that pressed the brushes against the commutator, so there was no burned spring problem with them.
In my personal experience, the springs on the Bachmann pancake motors can take abuse without going incandescent. I ought to measure them with my calipers and see if the wire is any thicker.
The Tyco Depot
Edited by - NickelPlate759 on November 17 2009 12:20:37 AM
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Posted - November 17 2009 : 9:40:27 PM
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i fixed my traction problem that i posted easlier in this thread about. the replacement traction tires i had put on them wasn't up to par. i found out today that a #47 rubber O ring fits great. you can get a pack of ten at lowes for $1.97. i bought three packs & replaced all the others.
they are pulling great now. i do need a better power pack/transformer. i need on that starts the voltage a lot lower that my tyco power pack does. any ideas on a good one thats not going to put me further into the poor house?
jerry
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Posted - November 17 2009 : 11:27:58 PM
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I had powertorque issues today as well. One of my BN sharknoses was running fine, then the gear popped out. I put it back, but now the loco is running slow. I think it will be my next repower project...that seems to be a permanent solution to all the problems.
The other sharknose had more trouble. I finally got the motor to work, but the axle of the big gear broke right off. It's part of the frame! All the gears were frozen with disgusting thick grease. I think I should have cleaned it more before I tried to run it...but for all I know it was broke before. Anyway, I managed to repair the little axle...it was quite a chore...and now the thing runs, but slow. I'm not sure what to do with it because I don't think my "repair" will last.
The sharknoses that I have seem to have super-cheap motors. Much more than the GP20 I repaired. Are they worth a repower, or will the gears just break?
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Posted - November 18 2009 : 05:21:50 AM
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The gears won't break unless they are caked with dried up grease, which must be what finally claimed the pin for the reduction gear. If you remotor, the weakest link is the zamac pinion, which will fail at some point. When I remotored my Chattanooga, I was careful to use a brass one from a first gen PT, but I like Shaygetz' solution here using the pinion portion of the large plastic gear instead:
http://www.tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7309
The Tyco Depot
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