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 Posted - April 02 2008 : 1:37:27 PM
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Thanks, Ray. I love tinkering with this kind of stuff.
Gareth, here are the pulleys I considered. I ended up with the small brass pulley on the motor, and the large black pulley on the input shaft to the gearbox. The large one came from a big dual cassette deck, so it started out as two pulleys in one that I had to saw apart. The diameter was perfect for the clearances in the frame. The belt is the shortest one I've ever found - I think it might be from a shelf stereo.
I built a styrene cradle for the motor, and used heavy-duty double-sided tape to hold the motor down, which provides some sound-deadening. The cradle is tacked in with hot melt, because I needed something solid but removable. It runs well, but the A-Line flywheel is slightly uneven and causes a roar, so I have to remove it and try another. I can't really use anything soft like RTV to mount the motor because of the pull from the belt. I sidelined the project a while ago in favor of more pressing jobs.
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Nelson
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Posted - April 02 2008 : 1:40:11 PM
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| I hvae 3 chattanoogas I would immediately repower with a drop in replacement if I could do it for $30 or less.If it was more It would likely be one at a time. They look as good as a current ihc loco, only they hold some sentimental value
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Posted - April 02 2008 : 2:53:44 PM
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My two cents worth:
I feel the best option would be higher quality replacement parts. If you change the motor to something else, it would not longer be a Tyco. Tyco was never the best running engine on the track and didnt pretend to be. This is what makes Tyco, Tyco. My memories are of trying to get the engine moving, dealing with its low power and all the little things that make people upset today. I enjoy buying Tyco and other brands and fixing them up and getting them to run as good as I can. I like the challange. If you could buy a drop in motor and get a Tyco engine to run smoothly and had more power, it would ruin my memories.
Parts I would like to see:
Amature, gear on the end of the motor, better magnets, rubber drive bands, motor covers, brushes and springs.
Neil
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Posted - April 03 2008 : 01:47:49 AM
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You know guys, if you put Wiseco pictons and Carillo rods in a Honda or whatever motorcycle they are still a Honda or whatever with aftermarket parts.
NWSL wheels don't make your Mantua steamer not one. It's a matter of interpreatation. Also a matter of how much operation the locomotive will see. Lots, well a better motor would be better. occasionally optimise what you have the PT.
-Gareth
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Posted - April 03 2008 : 02:07:19 AM
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It's kind of like Granpa's axe: the handle has been replaced 3 times, and the head twice, but it's been in the family for years...
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Posted - April 03 2008 : 02:53:15 AM
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Hey NP:
Ah thats because an Axe/Hatchet has a soul. Like a knife. Maybe it's a Celtic thing? [:D]
-Gareth
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Roy
Little Six
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Posted - April 03 2008 : 11:06:44 AM
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One thing I like about the PT drive is that one can manually turn the wheels. It's not like some Lionel steamers that will actually coast under their own weight, but I've never liked the self-locking attribute of single-tooth worm gearsets, which are the rule in HO and smaller gauges. Yeah OK, it's pretty silly. [:I]
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Nelson
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Posted - April 03 2008 : 2:08:17 PM
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| A dead engine will always be a dead engine. Unless you give it new life. If I can't put a new engine that is reliable I am just throwing away my money.
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Posted - April 18 2008 : 10:53:05 PM
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| How about an N scale motor from NWS? I seen some at a train show that might work in the original power torque drive. I will try to get one to see if it will work. The one i seen looked like it would fit in the power torque block with minimal effort or modification.
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crfan
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Posted - May 12 2008 : 12:38:33 PM
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I'm definitely in the market for replacement motors for TYCO locomotives. I would purchase your replacement(s) if available. I currently need motors for two ALCO C-430s and two steam locos--0-8-0 and a 2-8-0. Let me know if they become available.
Mark
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Posted - January 18 2009 : 6:39:37 PM
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i know this is an old post but whatever happened with this idea?
i like the 630s & 430s, if there was a replacement motor/remotor or whatever i would be interested as long as their around $30-$35 bucks. kit or drop in makes no difference to me. the power torque is junk! that is why i sold all 7 or 8 super 630s i had. they all ran like crap. i would fix one & in a weeks time it would be screwed up again. i think a lot of people that had or had their Tyco engine from way back when would do this. my first train was a CHATTANOOGA CHOO CHOO steamer. it would run for a while & then stop. sent it back for repair, get it back & it would run good for a day or two & then stop again. i had that sent off 5-6 times before the warranty finally run out.
jerry
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Posted - January 18 2009 : 7:16:16 PM
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I still have a few I am working on. They have been on the back burner.
The problem with remotoring the C630 truck is finding a thin enough motor to fit between the flanges of the center wheels.
The 4 wheel truck diesel and tender drive aren't a problem.
Ray
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Posted - January 26 2009 : 2:37:21 PM
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I have been looking for more possibilities in the way of motors for this project and came across this 12V motor.
http://www.precisionmicrodrives.com/product_info.php?products_id=194
Ray
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Posted - January 26 2009 : 3:16:02 PM
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quote:
I'm by no means an expert, but wouldn't the RPM's on that motor be too high?
    
- Matt -
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Posted - January 26 2009 : 3:52:59 PM
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I'm no expert either. I resign.
Ray
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Posted - January 26 2009 : 6:21:50 PM
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Ray:
Is that the same one you sent me the link to? Looked good to me? Don't remember seeing an RPM speed?
-Gareth
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Posted - January 26 2009 : 11:00:01 PM
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Looks pretty good. What was the cost? Thanks Ray!
Alco Fan
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Posted - January 26 2009 : 11:18:50 PM
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They are listed at 4.49 Not sure what that translates to USD.
4800 rpm isn't that excessive.
depends on what you compare it to i guess.
Ray
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Posted - January 29 2009 : 07:30:22 AM
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I think 4800 RPM is slow in MR terms. The motors NWSL sells for HO are in the 10,000 RPM range, and I'm sure the PT motors were probably in excess of that. The 12v motor in Ray's link looks like the right choice.
So why are you resigning, Ray? 
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - January 29 2009 : 10:49:49 AM
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quote:So why are you resigning, Ray?
Originally posted by NickelPlate759-January 29 2009: 07:30:22 AM
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The job is done.
All we have to do now is go into production.
Ray
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 Posted - March 06 2009 : 4:49:18 PM
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I know I'm supposed to be gone for a week, BUT...
I'm waiting for the glue on my version of the FrankenTorque to dry as I write this.
In my case, I used a common Tyco switcher, so it has the two axles with wheels and one axle with a gear in the middle. That's what made how I did it possible.
All I used was a $2.00 hack-saw, a can motor with pulley and belt from a broken DVD player, a pair of needlenose pliers, and some old acrylic caulking I found in the basement.
I'll post pictures soon, and maybe a video as well!
- Matt -
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Posted - March 06 2009 : 6:45:51 PM
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I'm surprised there isn't a pile of NOS (New old Stock) parts for Tyco powertorque motors somewhere. Did Tyco destroy all the parts? Same with the dies?
Maybe my memory has faded but I seem to remember the PT motors ran pretty good all things considered. The only problems I ever encountered was squealing after several hours of hard use (and they saw hard use by this then 10 year old!).
Todd
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Posted - March 06 2009 : 10:44:59 PM
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Well, my project went great, for about 15 seconds. 
*EDIT*: I had to remove those pictures out of embarrassment...what was I thinking? 
- Matt -
Edited by - MM 1498 on January 28 2010 09:11:49 AM
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Posted - March 07 2009 : 02:45:17 AM
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Dental rubber bands are far too small. You could cement a pulley to the dummy wheel on the center axle and cut a belt to size, but that means the wheels will turn at near motor speed. There is going to be virtually no reduction, which will make it way too fast, and hard on the motor.
I'd like to run a belt from the motor to a pulley on the large reduction gear, but the tension would pull it upwards, and there's nothing to keep it on it's pin without the pinion. It would take some redesigning.
The Tyco Depot
Edited by - NickelPlate759 on March 07 2009 02:46:14 AM
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Posted - January 17 2010 : 9:20:58 PM
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I think I'm gonna print this puppy out and go back over it!
Some great ideas here!
-Gareth
"A is A"
-Aristotle
Law of Identification
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Posted - January 27 2010 : 8:31:09 PM
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Gawd Help Us, Ray and I are talking about reviving this project.
What i need is can anyone remember what the thread was called taht included the photo's of the PT truck variations? I can't find it, can someone assist?
-Gareth
"A is A"
-Aristotle
Law of Identification
Edited by - romcat on January 27 2010 8:31:50 PM
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Posted - January 27 2010 : 9:11:10 PM
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That was GIC's thread. Do we have to have a seance to summon his presence?
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Posted - January 27 2010 : 9:24:28 PM
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http://www.tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2879
Alco Fan
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Posted - January 28 2010 : 12:12:07 AM
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quote:
Yea, that's the one.
Thanks.
What I am wondering is, What are the most common problems that are found when trying to revive a PT drive locomotive.
Gears?
Brush springs?
Brushes?
Armature?
Melted motor cover?
Traction tires?
Cracked wheels?
Bottom cover (coupler mount and sideframe mount)?
From what I have seen from others (and my own adventures) installing the flat can motors.
This is a viable option, but may not be the route that everyone wants to travel.
Ray
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Posted - January 28 2010 : 12:42:11 AM
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To throw in my 2 cents, the most common problems I see are worn teeth on the pinion, and keeping the bearings oiled while keeping the brushes dry. Another weak point is those plastic tabs that hold the brush retainers in place on the Mark II's... bend them back too far, and they don't spring back.
I've actually had very good luck reviving the units that have come into my possession over the past few years, but that's only because now I know what not to do. I've never had any motor components burn up on me.
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - January 28 2010 : 10:57:29 AM
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No seance necessary (but that would be funny)  Just have a lot on my plate and a lot of frustration lately....
Anyway. With over 100 PT locos having traveled through my possession, I've got a few opinions. I didn't rebuild all of them and not all of them required (or were worthy of) a further look, but the majority of them have. For whatever that's worth.
I'll start with Ray's excellent list of weak points, adding comments and my own additional points in Red:
Gears - A weak spot, but not as common as I once thought. It seems other issues kill these first.
Brush springs - not often
Brushes - see above
Armature - see Brush issues. I kind of take the three pieces - Brush + Springs + Armature - as one assembly. In all honesty I don't think I've ever come across a truly fried armature that wasn't the result of some other issue like poor/excessive lubrication or binding gears. I know a smooth-running PT is quite capable, and proves the armature is more than up to the task. But it seems 90% of the time other problems kill these things before worn brushes and springs could ever hope to become an issue.
Melted motor cover - Never have seen this, but could see how it might be possible. You had other problems before this would ever happen.
Traction tires - #1 question on this forum....
Cracked wheels - Yes, I have been surprised how many of these I find, especially the idler (middle, "dummy") axle on 4-wheel trucks. More often than worn gears for sure.
Bottom cover (coupler mount and sideframe mount) - This is definitely an issue and a weak point, and possibly the #1 problem with PT trucks... HOWEVER I consider this a cosmetic issue, and not one of performance. Sure, it's a part that would need repair or replacement... but it can run even without a sideframe (or coupler).
Incidentally, there are two or three variants on these. And two axle thicknesses... which makes interchanging a little trickier at times.
To the above I will add:
Missing Pinion - Have found at least a dozen PT's where the pinion gear was completely missing. I know folks here have had issues with them slipping off in the past too. And there's no margin for error if you need to enlarge the hole for a new armature. So replacements for these should be available. But you can't simply make a "bigger/stronger" pinion, because that would require the complete redesign and re-engineering of literally every single other component in the motor!
Broken Gear studs / Weak block - Here is in my opinion, the #1 problem with the PT. You can replace an armature. You can replace the gears. You can swap cracked wheels and replace broken truck covers. But those stupid, tiny zinc gear studs are your enemy: if one breaks, that's it! And you would be amazed how often this happens: A number of my DOA examples succumbed to this, and I've also managed to break a few.
Dried-up lubricant is the #1 culprit. When that stuff hardens, it may as well be mortar and when a gear tries to torque its way through, CRACK goes the axle. But that's not all: I've seen a few where the gear could turn "freely enough" but may have some crud underneath. No problem to remove it, right? Well it is when the zinc has swelled and the gear is binding upon (attempted) removal.
Break a stud, just go ahead and gut the truck and make a dummy loco, donate the parts to other units.
Overall thoughts?
IMO a faster/stronger armature or motor will be useless if it is so powerful as to snap the gear studs. Now I am genuinely curious to see what would happen if you DID say, upgrade the windings or use stronger magnets or what have you. It's worth investigating. But remember: there is not much room in the PT block for beefier parts. And one that runs well, runs as well as they would ever need too... so one may not have to "upgrade" the armature much.
I think proper lubrication and proper, freely-turning gears are the key. A burned-up armature can almost always be traced to sluggish gears... of course if the armature IS burned up, and you fix the gears, well... I guess you need to fix/replace the armature then too.
A PT can be made to run well... provided the parts are in good shape and you clean ALL the old crud out of them. But with the newest of these now approaching 20 years old, and the bulk of them now 30 years or more, well - you wouldn't drive a car that old without a tune-up would you? Yet at the end of the day, it's a Tyco usually not worth more than $20 and so the time to invest on a teardown/rebuild is often questionable.
I honestly think a piecemeal approach to replacement - say upgrading only the armature, or only the gears, or whatever - will expose other weakpoints in the OEM remnants. You have already seen this with the CD-motor units: The OEM gear slop becomes loud, other parts get broken in the process, etc.
So I would reason that a replacement supply of OEM-spec parts would be helpful.
Or a completely new design to replace the original kit while retaining the original trucks for appearances' sake might be worthwhile.
But simply slapping a new _____ in there, without cleaning out the gears and such is no guarantee, and may be asking for trouble. Obviously the CD transplants show this is successful in theory. Unfortunately, you might have an afflicted block that breaks gear pins when you attempt this... which sends you right back to square one, with zero. So that's a wild-card disclaimer that needs to be addressed.
Edited by - GoingInCirclez on January 28 2010 12:48:02 PM
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Posted - January 29 2010 : 5:12:24 PM
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IMO the windings are weak and so are the brush springs.
Alco Fan
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Posted - January 29 2010 : 5:26:39 PM
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What I'm investigating with ray is what I refer to as the TERP "DOX" short for Orthodox as in as close as possible to the original scrolls.
This version would include:
1/. Improved windings as in how it's wound and what wire and what gauge to get the best suitable to moving a model train locomotive
2/. New much more powerful permamnent magnets to match the rewound armature.
3/. New gears. Pinion, reduction, idler. Ray and I are discussing ratios as well that might reflect more prototypical speeds at max power, as in 65-85mph for a 4/630 at full power 12V
Now the issue becomes, who's gonna convert them? Ray & I or the customer or both? might require a gear puller, a ram press... though a vise might stand in...
Of all the variations this is my favourite, because it's the for lack of a better word "purest" version.
-Gareth
"A is A"
-Aristotle
Law of Identification
Edited by - romcat on January 29 2010 5:37:34 PM
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Posted - January 29 2010 : 8:50:10 PM
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It would be interesting to test a PT with a set of super-strong nedymium magnets and see how it performed, but unless someone is making neodymium replacements for old Aurora slot cars, there wouldn't be anything out there close to fitting. The only crescent shaped magnets I've seen available are for Xmod motors, which are a highly customizable line of mini RC cars sold by Radio Shack, and nowhere near the right dimensions.
The problem with beefier springs is that it = more drag, particularly in a pancake motor with a large brush and commutator surface area. A small cylindrical commutator with a set of precious metal wipers like those in the tray motors offer the least drag, and don't oil foul easily because they're non-porous, but they add to the motor's depth.
Finally, I propose we change the name to "Tyco Weak Engine Replacement Project", or TWERP. 
The Tyco Depot
Edited by - NickelPlate759 on September 09 2010 7:43:06 PM
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Posted - January 29 2010 : 9:51:28 PM
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It won't be weak when it's done, thats kinda the point!
We'll test and we'll see.
-Gareth
"A is A"
-Aristotle
Law of Identification
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Posted - January 30 2010 : 07:20:04 AM
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neat info guys STILL gotta ask friend for motors he has laying around & sorry the double shaft motors are super rare  So he don't have those 
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Posted - September 09 2010 : 6:47:13 PM
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Gareth,
If you make a replacement motor for the PT, I would buy at least two, maybe three, just for starters.
How much do they cost?
Cheers, Ian
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Posted - September 09 2010 : 9:06:49 PM
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| My Nickel..... As a collector I used the PT if they were original to the engine. Otherwise, I totally hate the PT motor and the traction tires for them. If I decide to become an operator, I would change every operating PT motor to an 60's MU type motor. I have a couple that are at least 45 years old and have started right up after being in storage and unused for 45 years. Tyco should have never stopped using them.
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Posted - September 10 2010 : 12:46:42 AM
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| I would definitely buy some replacement motors. I would leave my mint never run still in the box locomotives as they are, but the ones that have been run? Fair game for any modifications as far as I'm concerned. I'm playing around right now with LED lighting on a Tyco GP-20 & Alco Super 630...
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Posted - September 12 2010 : 8:12:12 PM
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zerosen,
Let us know how it goes...
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