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 Posted - November 27 2007 : 3:46:49 PM
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We are having some private discussions about the authenticity of something called pre-production or prototype toys and I wanted to get all the opinions of the forum. I am NO authority on TYCO trains. I do, however, know a lot about Aurora Slot cars and have published a book on the subject. The Complete Color Guide To Aurora HO Slot Cars, check it out, it's on Ebay ans Amazon and you could order it from Borders if you wanted to. There is a chapter dedicated to Aurora prototypes and several are listed. Even the Aurora trains that Pemco made are pictured there. I have several of them in my collection. To me, a pre-production or prototype toy is something that can be authenticated. In many cases it only goes on someones word. Most people who try and fake prototypes or strip down slot cars do so because there is a high value in some of the prototype stuff to some collectors. There does not seem to be that high demand in this hobby for those types of things. I can not imagine someone, anyone. spending several hours making a forgery of a pre-production piece for the sake of making a few dollars at best. This stuff does not seem to be worth a fortune and I realize it is best to err on the side of caution when deciding what is real or not. I for one, always ask where it came from and how you got it. All that said, I am not mad, annoyed, or dis-illusioned by the questions about authenticity. I just can't see the profitibility in making something like what I have. I want to keep it intact for the nostalgic and historical aspect of it. These things need to be put out to the public and this forum is the best place for that. I would appreciate comments, positive or negative, as to the value or reason for anyone wanting to re-create any of this stuff. Some of the things I photograph in the future are really crude in artistry. I could have done better in some cases but the thought and ingenuity is truly TYCO's. I can not take credit honestly for any of it. I am in the process of authenticating the originator of my collection but it has not been easy as he has retired and moved. I will keep you posted...... Having fun in TYCO TRAINLAND -Bob
Bob the Slot Car Guy
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Posted - November 27 2007 : 4:05:20 PM
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Based on the things you've posted pics of on here, I think they are all real prototypes. If someone was going to try and forge a prototype, you'd think they would try to make them look fairly nice. Some of the ones you have on the other hand are very crudely painted, and some only painted on one side. This (to me) indicates that they are real.
I don't see why anyone would go to the trouble of painting a Tyco engine to make it look like a prototype so they could make money. There are a few pieces Tyco made that would go for way more than a "prototype" whether it be real or fake.
-cheez
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Posted - November 27 2007 : 4:30:10 PM
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I guess I'll jump in here since I've been involved in these discussions.
To be clear, I'm not so much questioning the authenticity of Bob's collection, as I think he has shown enough quantity and uniqueness in his collection as to really be onto something.
But there are very good questions that need to be raised about an unknown or custom work. For instance, you all know about my Tide and Oreo cars, the black Hooker tanker I can duplicate, and even my SKI tanker which looks convincing enough. As Cheez said, these possibly look too nice. And I didn't do them for profit, as much as a personal challenge and a favor to other collectors. (Although I found one last set of Tide decals and will be selling a completed car shortly).
But the emergence of Bob's collection, and especially the methods Tyco used for mockups (stickers instead of paint) really made me question an item of my own collection:
That is what I assumed to be a crude custom work, of the following real locomotive:
Looking at the model, I had many questions, primarily: who would go through the trouble to model such a unique E8, and then use such a crude base as the Tyco E7? When it came to me, it still had vampire trucks! Not to mention, the "Independence" font was wrong, using crude sticker letters; the number "652" was wrong font; and they did not color the red "R stone" on the nose or the blue "The Rock" on the sides (I touched those up myself). Seems like whomever did this fell short of accuracy. But the hand-painted star was pretty nice.
Now look at this:
/tyco/forum/uploaded/GoingInCirclez/tyco_stuff%20031.jpg
Bob's GM&O prototype. Using vinyl stickers, I then realize that the "GM&O" letters are the SAME SIZE AND FONT as the incorrect "Independence" on my E7. The number "5628" is again, the same size and font. Now maybe that was just convenient use of stock decals. But then, I realized that my E7's filled pilot and windows were added later, after the unit was first painted (the blue on the pilot is a different shade, and there were problems with the red touch-up on the windows and the letters had peeled).
So... is this a Tyco prototype? Is it a pure custom-made model done by a Rock Bicentennial fan on a budget? Or is it a combo of the two? Who is to say? The similarities are astounding. I merely considered it a unique model with interesting character until I saw some of Bob's prototypes.
But of course, I can't prove anything. And got the engine for not much.
It is what it is, and they are what they are.
I say collect what you like, and research and preserve the history if you can. The minute you start obsessing about the dollar value of anything, the fun goes out the window and it's not a hobby anymore.
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Posted - November 27 2007 : 4:48:01 PM
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Hi Guys:
I think in the marketplace, a claim is a claim. You have to agree to standards. Thats iffy in this model train world unless something is glaringly NIB.
If you look on Ebay and following the "C" condition standard you are acknowledging that it's about appearance only, primarily since some of the loco's are 50+ years old and not been run since many forum members were kids or not planned(?) yet![:D]
It's very subjective as I'm sure most of us have found out on openeing a package from the mail. I know I have been guilty of this to some degree once recently, so I'm making amends. I will however be more careful in the future to secure an understanding of what is what. Now the guy I disappointed (one of our TCF brethren) was fair and so was I, but thats what integrity requires. (I've even sent a Locomotive to a forum member who never paid for it.) That brings us back to the Pre-production prototypes.
I think Cheez hit it right (Smart-ass kid!) who would make fake Tyco's!!!! ??? The only other reason to claim to have "RARE" Tyco's would be to gain, garner accolades from this body for example, and Good Gawd wouldn't that be sad SO: I think we say. Neat stuff; sell some of it to me!!!???
Semper Tycois Fidelis,
Romcat (Gareth)
Edited by - romcat on November 27 2007 4:57:45 PM
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Posted - November 27 2007 : 6:06:45 PM
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| Bob - I too saw your eBay items under the Mr Aurora eBay handle. At first I thought you were an eBay seller I bought from several years back named "mrtyco" who sold mostly Tyco slot cars but sold some Aurora as well and that you had come back under a new name. But I just checked my old e-mail archive and see that the sellers names were Dan & Karen Esposito so I guess they were not you, lol! Back in 2003 or so he offer a bunch of Tyco trains on eBay that he told me were from an ex-Tyco employee including some prototypes. Some of the items you had up on eBay looked alot like the items they sold including the NOS Warbonnet Santa Fe GP-20's with just the foam and no boxes (I picked up like 8 of those back then). I wonder if you both got some of these items from a similar or same ex-Tyco employee source. One of the treasures I got back in 2003 was a prototype Tyco Burlington Northern SD24. It too had been created with decals/stickers and not all paint. I could post pictures of it too later if anyone is interested. Not sure if this is the right forum to do that or if I should do it the Tyco Motive Power forum. Mike
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Posted - November 27 2007 : 8:52:41 PM
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Hey Skyhighballoon
Picies for sure! Get em up here!
Or as you suggest In the Tyco Motive forum section would probably be best.
Better still how about posting in the LotW section by hitting reply to the current week Nov 26-Dec.1st and adding them in!!??
Thanks,
Gareth
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Vern
Switcher
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Posted - November 27 2007 : 8:58:41 PM
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| I just got hold of a TYCO Match Box ho train set still in shipping box and believe it to be the real thing I am wondering if any of you could tell me what it may be worth?: I am new to this forum and do not quite undersand how it all works
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Posted - November 28 2007 : 12:00:34 PM
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| romcat - BN Pics posted in the Motive Power forum. I figured it might be of enough interest to be in it's own post rather than the LotW forum where it would be at the bottom of the heap and not so easy to find. Mike
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