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 Posted - March 01 2015 : 6:08:25 PM
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Another PT smoked today.
Time to stop goofing around with the factory stuff and put 30 years of engineering experience to work. The PT can't be so bad a design that major improvements can't be made. I'm going to totally rebuild this sucker, armature included.
~ Dave
They're ALL toys
Edited by - RDC1 on March 21 2015 05:32:24 AM
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Posted - March 01 2015 : 6:28:26 PM
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Let me know how it goes! I've found a slot car guy who rewinds Aurora armatures. I've also found AFX dot brushes work well and Aurora springs. Thought of Aurora Thunder Jet magnets or rezapping the factory ones for extra insurance.
" Heck with counting 'em rivets, TRAINS ARE FOR FUN! Not called the Mad Scientist for nothing either!"
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Posted - March 01 2015 : 10:03:23 PM
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quote:Let me know how it goes! I've found a slot car guy who rewinds Aurora armatures. I've also found AFX dot brushes work well and Aurora springs. Thought of Aurora Thunder Jet magnets or rezapping the factory ones for extra insurance.
Originally posted by Redneck Justin - March 01 2015 : 6:28:26 PM
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Have you tried any of those rewound armatures?
~ Dave
~ Dave
They're ALL toys
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Posted - March 01 2015 : 10:24:40 PM
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Not yet. I will soon. The magnets usually hold up. The windings usually catch the blunt force and abuse. I say a rewound arm and new brushes and springs are the only thing needed. Someone once mentioned adding a .010" bronze washer from NWSL between the arm and block on the pinion side of the PT helps also. Make sure before a rewound that the armature has a good commutator still.
" Heck with counting 'em rivets, TRAINS ARE FOR FUN! Not called the Mad Scientist for nothing either!"
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Posted - March 02 2015 : 7:05:19 PM
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I'm going to look at the whole assembly, magnets included. I've already ordered a variety of replacement magnets, brushes & springs.. I haven't decided on a wire gauge yet. I can manufacture a brand new commutator if I have to.
If you try out the rewinding service, let us know how it goes.
~ Dave
~ Dave
They're ALL toys
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Posted - March 02 2015 : 7:42:00 PM
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Cool. Can't wait to see some progress.
" Heck with counting 'em rivets, TRAINS ARE FOR FUN! Not called the Mad Scientist for nothing either!"
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Posted - March 03 2015 : 2:31:24 PM
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I'm gonna keep my eyes on this thread, maybe you can fix some of the issues with the PT and make improvements!
just me Ray... and just because I have Tyco doesn't mean I am not a model railroader
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Posted - March 03 2015 : 2:52:07 PM
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Ditto. I have a few PTs that need help. One will most likely end up with a CD drive motor just so I can say I've done it...
Tim
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Posted - March 03 2015 : 5:50:31 PM
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I need a few more armatures so I can try different winds. I might have to do some shopping on eBay to get what I need.
~ Dave
~ Dave
They're ALL toys
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Posted - March 11 2015 : 06:57:37 AM
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Parts and equipment are starting to trickle in now ... the Postal Service has been really slow with all the snow we had. With any luck I should be able to start this study within 2 weeks.
I pondered for quite a while on how I would go about this. At first I thought that I would analyze each component, starting with the magnets. I was afraid though that removing the magnets to measure the Gauss would weaken the magnets. I decided that the best way is to measure the pulling force of a bone stock locomotive to establish a base line. Then after each modification, measure the pulling force again. After the measurements, I'll put the engine to work pulling cars around a loop to see if she'll hold up. I should have some very visible results.
If there's anything else y'all think I should look at while I'm at it, please, by all means let me know.
~ Dave
~ Dave
They're ALL toys
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Posted - March 11 2015 : 11:26:55 AM
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quote: I was afraid though that removing the magnets to measure the Gauss would weaken the magnets.
~ Dave
Originally posted by RDC1Â -Â March 11 2015Â :Â 06:57:37 AM
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Since these magnets are identical (?) to those in slot cars, I have never heard that they have any problem with loss of magnetism when removed. I've got plenty of Aurora magnets loose in my slot car toolbox, and they still have plenty of magnetism left, even after 40 years of sitting around. I think the Tyco ones are also "permananet magnets", not the Alnico types which are a hybrid.
JErry
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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Posted - March 11 2015 : 6:17:51 PM
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just wondering
Wouldn't Rare Earth Magnets work in motors or are they TOO strong?
I still say PT motors was a crummy motor anyway 
But here I am fixing them up With the help of a friend hehe
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Posted - March 11 2015 : 6:32:19 PM
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quote: quote: I was afraid though that removing the magnets to measure the Gauss would weaken the magnets.
~ Dave
Originally posted by RDC1Â -Â March 11 2015Â :Â 06:57:37 AM
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Since these magnets are identical (?) to those in slot cars, I have never heard that they have any problem with loss of magnetism when removed. I've got plenty of Aurora magnets loose in my slot car toolbox, and they still have plenty of magnetism left, even after 40 years of sitting around. I think the Tyco ones are also "permananet magnets", not the Alnico types which are a hybrid.
JErry
Originally posted by AMC_Gremlin_GTÂ -Â March 11 2015Â :Â 11:26:55 AM
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You are correct, however I have no way of measuring the before & after removal to be absolutely sure. Also, I think I'm going about it a more practical way and in a way that means more to us by measuring the performance of the locomotive before and after upgrades.
~ Dave
~ Dave
They're ALL toys
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Posted - March 11 2015 : 6:35:53 PM
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quote:just wondering
Wouldn't Rare Earth Magnets work in motors or are they TOO strong?
I still say PT motors was a crummy motor anyway
But here I am fixing them up With the help of a friend hehe
Originally posted by microbusss - March 11 2015 : 6:17:51 PM
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This is one of the things that I would like to find out. It is possible to hurt a motor's performance by using magnets that are too strong. I haven't sprung the $25 yet for the rare earth slot car magnets yet, but I just might, depending on the results of the different magnets that I did order.
~ Dave
~ Dave
They're ALL toys
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Posted - March 11 2015 : 11:00:07 PM
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Dave, I found one powertorque for you PM me your addy and I'll mail it next week, its yours for the cause!
just me Ray... and just because I have Tyco doesn't mean I am not a model railroader
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Posted - March 11 2015 : 11:57:51 PM
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quote:Dave, I found one powertorque for you PM me your addy and I'll mail it next week, its yours for the cause!
Originally posted by rgcw5Â -Â March 11 2015Â :Â 11:00:07 PM
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PM sent ... thanks a lot!
~ Dave
They're ALL toys
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Posted - March 12 2015 : 12:00:30 AM
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quote:| It is possible to hurt a motor's performance by using magnets that are too strong. Originally posted by RDC1Â -Â March 11 2015Â :Â 6:35:53 PM
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The only downside I've observed is making some motors a little louder, but if you're using a PT, I don't imagine you're shooting for silent running, anyhow.
Carpe Manana!
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Posted - March 12 2015 : 05:47:45 AM
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quote: quote:| It is possible to hurt a motor's performance by using magnets that are too strong. Originally posted by RDC1Â -Â March 11 2015Â :Â 6:35:53 PM
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The only downside I've observed is making some motors a little louder, but if you're using a PT, I don't imagine you're shooting for silent running, anyhow.
Originally posted by scsshaggy - March 12 2015 : 12:00:30 AM
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A silent PT would be nice though, wouldn't it? I don't know if there's much I can do about the noise.
~ Dave
~ Dave
They're ALL toys
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Posted - March 16 2015 : 12:51:19 AM
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Dave, are you sure it's the windings themselves that burned? A motor can smoke for numerous reasons: too much oil in the brushes, brush dust accumulation, the brush springs overheating and collapsing, or the commutator traces wearing / burning thru. Unless you're torture testing them hours a day, they shouldn't burn out like this... in fact the bearings should start squealing first, or the pinion should work loose or strip. In 1975 I abused my original 2-8-0 Chattanooga by adding a lot of lead to the tender and pulling at least 20 cars with it, and it held up for over a year before the pinion started to slip. At that age I didn't know how to degrease the parts to get the CA to hold, so it ended up in my junk pile, but the motor itself never died.
Pinning down the point of failure and the reason for it is important before attempting any sort of redesign. Keeping oil out of the brushes and off the commutator is the most important aspect of keeping these running, which means only a trace of oil on the brush end bearing when it gets noisy. If you've already ticked all those boxes, then rewinding the armature with more turns for higher resistance (and lower speed) would be an interesting experiment.
The Tyco Depot
Edited by - NickelPlate759 on March 16 2015 12:52:28 AM
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Posted - March 16 2015 : 06:47:35 AM
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Hi Nelson, yup, the windings fried. Here are the resistance readings from the commutator:
Plates 1 to 2 reads 0.2 ohms (plates numbered with a sharpie)
Plates 2 to 3 reads 0.5 ohms
Plates 3 to 1 reads open
When this engine stopped, there was no screaming from lack of lube. It was pulling 5 Blue Coal hoppers, stopped dead and went up in smoke, literally.
I don't want to ID the failure of just this engine. I have some really good running engines with Power Torque motors, but I have 2 that are absolutely miserable with no running consistency.
With my impending test, measurements and modifications, I intend to identify modifications of performance improvement for the Power Torque. Measured and proven, not just "I think it runs better."
I hope all will be pleasantly surprised when I start this, hopefully this weekend when the post man brings my stuff.
~ Dave
~ Dave
They're ALL toys
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Posted - March 16 2015 : 09:52:44 AM
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Greatly looking forward to your findings! My first Tyco was a PT that seems burned out also. Would love to resurrect it.
Tim
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Posted - March 17 2015 : 03:22:46 AM
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Then by all means Dave, experiment away!  Any idea what you plan to do? More turns of the same gauge wire? Larger gauge is going to lower resistance and increase current draw unless you add enough extra turns, and I'm guessing space is limited. OTOH, the original wire dia. is so fine that winding it is going to be a lesson in zen patience.
The Tyco Depot
Edited by - NickelPlate759 on March 17 2015 07:57:54 AM
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Posted - March 17 2015 : 06:11:01 AM
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The first thing to do is to take some measurements of the bone stock loco to see how well it can pull. First until the wheels slip, and then weighted so the wheels do not slip. Then start making changes, one at a time and measure the results. I'm starting with magnets of different Gauss. Then I'll look at the armatures. I'm sure there will be some trial and error. I've never wound an armature this tiny before.
~ Dave
~ Dave
They're ALL toys
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Posted - March 17 2015 : 06:42:12 AM
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Have you found ceramic or neodymium crescent magnets of the same dimension?
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - March 17 2015 : 07:00:11 AM
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Yes, I've found quite a few souped up magnets, including poly and neodymium.
~ Dave
They're ALL toys
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Posted - March 17 2015 : 7:01:37 PM
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The gear is starting to roll in
~ Dave
They're ALL toys
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Posted - March 17 2015 : 7:31:30 PM
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Dave, I am not saying there is anything wrong with your gauges there but have you ever seen the gadget that Micro-Mark sells for testing pulling power? I have one and it is nice. It reads out in metric or English (whatever we are SAE etc.) and is digital.
Randy
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Posted - March 17 2015 : 7:40:11 PM
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Nope, never seen it, but I just checked it out. Wish I had known about it. Oh well, my spring scales will have to do for this, unless they prove unworthy of the job. I have to leave some money in the budget for magnets and other things.
Thanks for the heads-up! That gadget just might come in handy if the spring scales don't work out.
~ Dave
~ Dave
They're ALL toys
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Posted - March 21 2015 : 07:14:04 AM
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Hi all. I'll be moving this project to: http://tycodepot.com/
~ Dave
They're ALL toys
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Posted - April 19 2015 : 8:06:25 PM
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Full details on the other site.
~ Dave
~ Dave
They're ALL toys
Edited by - RDC1 on April 19 2015 8:08:14 PM
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