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 Posted - August 22 2014 : 08:08:54 AM
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Well, I finally got 4 of the 9 current Auto Loader racks 100% finished this week, I cut down some Lionel O gauge brush springs, and they fit around the threaded stud perfectly, and now the trucks are slightly sprung from the center mounting point.  Soon as I find more Athrearn-type trucks, I will finish this project ( this year  ).
Anyway, since I was working on flats, I decided to do a piggyback as well, and it's basically the same design as the auto loader, so it went quickly, got it done Wednesday. While looking for more to do Thursday, I found a flat in my display case, the 3 tractor trailer cab flat, and got that out to modify. I'd already modified it by adding a wavy washer to the original Tyco truck so it wouldn't wobble, but all that will get blown away with the new upgrade. I hope to have a decent set of Tyco flats to run at shows soon, the way this project is going. Will also do the Tractor and concrete pipe cars, when I find them.
So while my real job is slowing down right now, I'm finding more Tyco projects to upgrade and keep me busy Hopefully I'll be showing them off at shows this year.
  
Jerry
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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babuff
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Posted - August 22 2014 : 12:26:13 PM
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Jerry
Could you explain how you did the truck conversions in more detail? You mentioned threaded studs. Is this something you installed yourself? What size stud? Not sure how the athearn truks would be mounted, but I have a few Tyco screw mount truck instead of the plastic push on type that probably would work.
Leo
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Posted - August 22 2014 : 1:16:49 PM
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The threaded studs and springs don't make the cars ride too high? Do you have a picture of an installed truck?
Glenn
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, "... I drank what?"
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Posted - August 22 2014 : 9:05:20 PM
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quote:Could you explain how you did the truck conversions in more detail? You mentioned threaded studs. Is this something you installed yourself? What size stud?
Leo
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The threaded studs and springs don't make the cars ride too high? Do you have a picture of an installed truck?
Originally posted by gmoney - August 22 2014 : 1:16:49 PM
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Ok, guys, here's the hardware and sequence. What I have been looking for is not really a stud, but a threaded insert, rivet, etc. Not easy to find. The size is 2-56 thread, most hardware with flanges on it only go down to 4-40, but after looking long and hard a couple weeks ago, I ran across a guy on Ebay selling EXACTLY what ( I thought ) I wanted. I was hoping for a wider diameter but still a 2-56 thread, but that ain't happening, so I adapted my approach, as you will see.
The hole in the flat is bigger than the diamter of the insert, so it has to be glued in. Not a problem, with the flange size, it's a near-perfect fit, and the glue holds it in place so it won't wobble. With the Athearn-type trucks I used ( screw-on ), it doesn't ride high, and because of the design of these particular Tyco flats, the original Tyco truck/coupler run almost flush with the bottom of the flat anyway, so mounting a Kadee there didn't affect the coupler height that I've detected. Other Tyco flats have the coupler riding MUCH farther away from the bottom of the flat. so they may require shims, but the Auto Loader, the 3 Semi cab, and the Piggyback flat all have the same design, and work without coupler height mods, I used older Kadee 5&10 delayed Magnamatic couplers, I think they are identical to #5's.
Ok, that's the description, here's the photos. :)
/tyco/forum/uploaded/amc_gremlin_gt/20140822203608_1_hardware.jpg
Above, the 1/4 inch long 2-56 threaded inserts I paid 8 cents apiece for. I'm not sure yet what Lionel O gauge the springs are for, but the tapered ends are perfect for the screw head to hold them in place. I haven't paid the boss for them yet, so not sure how much, but maybe 20-25 cents apiece?
/tyco/forum/uploaded/amc_gremlin_gt/20140822203654_2_hardware_truck.jpg
Above, here's the Athearn-style truck I used that has a wide enough hole for the flanged insert to pass through and not bind or chatter.
/tyco/forum/uploaded/amc_gremlin_gt/20140822203749_3_hardware_flat.jpg
Above, a flat I have placed an insert into, with the truck and other inserts. A little glue on either side of the flange, down in the groove, and it'll be ready to install the truck.
/tyco/forum/uploaded/amc_gremlin_gt/20140822203831_4_Flat_stud.jpg
Above, here you can see how far above the bottom the insert protrudes out. I thought about cutting them off, then the flash of brilliance hit.
/tyco/forum/uploaded/amc_gremlin_gt/20140822203950_5_spring_truck.jpg
Above, with the truck mounted onto the flanged insert, you TNEN install the cut-down lionel brush spring. 
/tyco/forum/uploaded/amc_gremlin_gt/20140822204037_6_hardware_spring_truck_screw.jpg
Above, with the spring in place, I installed a 5/16 long 2-56 screw ( I'd have to measure to be sure, but longer than 1/4 inch ), on the cut-down Lionel brush spring. There's enough give in it so the truck will move a bit side to side, but held in place with the spring, it is now "sprung", and has some flex, but it's holding the truck FLAT to the bottom of the car. The spring is Not between the truck and flat bottom. And the longer insert gives the spring the support it needs, so it isn't mushy. I was surprised how well this works, now that it's done. I could have cut off the inserts shorter, but getting them flat would have been tough, so when I had the brain flash to use springs, and it actually WORKED, well, I was very , and like 
I tested the coupler height at work, against an Athearn engine, and it was perfect. I JUST pulled out my round phenolic disc shaped coupler gauge, and the coupler goes into the slot perfectly, the "hose" needs to be bent up a bit ( as usual ), but I couldn't have gotten the height more perfect if I'd tried real hard ( and I didn't. ). The hardest part of this WHOLE project was finding the perfect mounting hardware ( flanged insert ) that I've been looking for for some time. I just got lucky on Ebay finding this smooth one. There are others out there, that are wider and can be heat-inserted, but I thought I'd try these first, and they work well with the spring option that I will probably stick with it.
Again, these 3 Tyco flats are the perfect choice to use this option on, the concrete pipe flat rides a bit higher off the coupler ( different truck? ), so not sure it would come out the same, but I will probably check one to see if this conversion will work on it as well. I just need to find more of these Athearn-type screw-on trucks, which I'm pretty sure I have, just need to find them  . If you're interested in buying this flanged insert for yourself, here's the Seller and the link to an auction.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-25-2-56-Brass-Threaded-Inserts-Thru-Pivot-Bushing-Blind-Nut-Knife-Making-/280897951122?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4166d29592
CNCSpider is the seller.
Hope this helps with understanding how I managed to get these Tyco flats upgraded, and hopefully running at shows soon. I've NEVER seen a consist of the Auto Loaders run anywhere, so I may be the first to have some nice ones, as they have athearn trucks, steel wheels, and SPRUNG trucks now  Couldn't be happier with the way they turned out, they roll smooth, and once I get the AMX's and Camaro's loaded onto them, I will be happily showing them off at shows this year.
Jerry
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
Edited by - AMC_Gremlin_GT on August 22 2014 9:15:25 PM
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Posted - August 22 2014 : 9:39:28 PM
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I thought you had the spring between the underframe and truck, which would make the car ride higher. It's all clear now! I wonder if you even need to glue the threaded inserts in, since the spring would hold the flange against the underframe.
You know, now that I think about it, Rubik's Cubes are held together the same way!
Glenn
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, "... I drank what?"
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Posted - August 22 2014 : 10:34:40 PM
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quote:I thought you had the spring between the underframe and truck, which would make the car ride higher. It's all clear now! I wonder if you even need to glue the threaded inserts in, since the spring would hold the flange against the underframe.
Originally posted by gmoney - August 22 2014 : 9:39:28 PM
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Well, now that you mentioned it, I have already installed two of the inserts into the 3-truck cab flat , without the glue, and will see how it does. They wobble a bit, but not too much, once they're tightened down, they may be OK with the springs installed as well. I'll let you know how well it does when I'm finished with it. I still think I'd prefer them being glued in, but I"ll try one anyway. Easy enough to rectify if it's too floppy.
No, installing the springs between the truck and frame would have made it a Looney Tunes car at best. This way it holds it to the chassis but can still rock some. A MUCH better way to go.
Jerry
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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babuff
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Posted - August 23 2014 : 10:37:22 AM
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Thanks for the info I thought you just used threaded rod stock, but sleeving the hole makes a whole lot more sense.
Leo
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Posted - August 23 2014 : 11:32:15 AM
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A great tutorial! Tyco flats are very accommodating for Kadee coupler installation. I've been using the original trucks after removing the coupler apparatus, reaming the trucks with "The Tool" and installing 33 inch Intermountain wheel sets. Sometimes I use Kadees with underset shanks as they can mount a little low. (I suppose I could also use 36 inch wheel sets with a #5.) I took your advice and purchased some inserts from your eBay source. Do you have any recommendations on purchasing the Lionel springs?
Edited by - detroitterminal on August 23 2014 11:33:30 AM
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Posted - August 23 2014 : 11:41:58 AM
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quote: I've been using the original trucks after removing the coupler apparatus, reaming the trucks with "The Tool" and installing 33 inch Intermountain wheel sets. Sometimes I use Kadees with underset shanks as they can mount a little low. (I suppose I could also use 36 inch wheel sets with a #5.)
Originally posted by detroitterminal - August 23 2014 : 11:32:15 AM
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That is the way I have done it with many Tyco flats (as well as most all Tyco rolling stock), although I use the Kadee 33" wheelsets. No particular reason other than they seem to be more readily available.
It is a nice conversion but personally I have never had issues with the Tyco trucks wobbling, so converting them with The Tool made more sense to me and more importantly saves money.
http://tycodepot.com/
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Posted - August 23 2014 : 11:48:01 AM
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quote:A great tutorial! .... I took your advice and purchased some inserts from your eBay source. Do you have any recommendations on purchasing the Lionel springs?
Originally posted by detroitterminal - August 23 2014 : 11:32:15 AM
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thanks for the kind comments. I didnt' want to destroy the original trucks, in case I ever wanted to put them back to original condition.
Anyway, as far as the Lionel springs...here's an ebay auction, these are the springs, at least they're identified. A bit pricey at 3.60 for two springs and two brushes, will have to see if I can find the springs separate, or from a spring vendor. At least now I've identified them :
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LIONEL-MOTOR-BRUSH-1001M-46-FOR-1001-SCOUT-ENGINES-2-BRUSHES-SPRINGS-/321483072452?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item4ad9e263c4
I don't have any other source at the moment, the bosses supply is limited, so I may hit the Internet again to see if I can find something similar.
Jerry
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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Posted - August 23 2014 : 11:53:19 AM
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Oh, looky, I found a source.... $1 for a pack of 4, and I have even used the large end of the spring, can probably get 3 or 4 spring sections out of one spring, as I have used the larger end and bent in the spring some so the screw will hold it.
http://stores.smittystoytrainparts.com/690-1001-m47-pack-of-4/
Think I may have to order some of these myself from here.
Jerry
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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Posted - August 23 2014 : 1:57:52 PM
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you know, I wonder if retractable pen springs cut down would be an idea?
just me Ray... and just because I have Tyco doesn't mean I am not a model railroader
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Posted - August 23 2014 : 3:10:21 PM
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quote:you know, I wonder if retractable pen springs cut down would be an idea?
Originally posted by rgcw5Â -Â August 23 2014Â :Â 1:57:52 PM
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Two thoughts ( already thought of that ) - They're too narrow, and the wire is too thick, needs to have lots of force to push up the ink part, and that would be too much for the trucks. Which is why I thought of brush springs because they should have some tension, just not excessive amounts. Good try, though.
Jerry
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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Posted - August 23 2014 : 5:44:07 PM
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While cleaning/sorting stuff in the basement, I ran across a bin I'd put flat cars in to modify a long time ago, and 4 more Tyco green flats and a Trailer Train flat came out to be modified the new way. Had to toothbrush the TT flat, as it was dirty and had spiderwebs on it. Ick. The others were mostly clean. So I've already torn them down, and glued in the flange inserts. I'll mark and drill them for Kadee pockets after the glue dries. Here's a pic of the 6 green ones, two already done and ready for new trucks, and the four just-found ones. I probably have more around, but these are what I can get my hands on right now. Will keep hunting for more as I clean up.
Jerry
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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