|
|
 Posted - December 09 2013 : 9:02:00 PM
|
This is regarding the tender trucks that go with the 1890's Rogers 4-6-0 and 4-8-0's (and maybe others) . . .
Does anyone have any tricks to get these to conduct better? Or methods they would recommend for taking them apart and putting them back together?
I have one pair of Precision Scale Company trucks that make all of my Rogers locomotives run better, but they are not the correct period for the tender and I'm thinking there must be a way to get the Tyco-Mantua trucks to perform a little better. I've done all the usual recommended stuff, but to be any more aggressive, I'm going to have to disassemble the trucks and it would be interesting to see what you other folks have done about this problem.
Thanks,
Barry
|
Country:  USA ~
Posts: 2087 ~
Member Since: March 16 2013 ~
Last Visit: July 05 2018
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - December 09 2013 : 9:44:30 PM
|
Polishing the bolsters and kingpins helps, but it's really only temporary. There's also conductive lube that should help for a while, but the only bulletproof way is to hardwire them.
I did it on a Pacific once by drilling holes in the top of each truck and then installing a Mantua self-tapping washerhead screw in each, which I used to secure the end of a wire. I drilled holes in the tender floor above each truck, and routed the wire up into the tender, where it was screwed to the frame with a third washerhead screw. With the 4 wheel trucks on the old timers, you'd be better off soldering the wires to the steel truck bolsters.
The Tyco Depot
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 3927 ~
Member Since: June 20 2007 ~
Last Visit: November 19 2015
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - December 10 2013 : 12:59:37 AM
|
Hey, thanks for your reply Nelson. That's an interesting solution you came up with and I may end up trying that. Your reply leads me to a couple more questions: 1. The frames on these are steel? I ask to clarify because the metal seemed relatively soft when I was drilling. 2. In the photo, I've circled the spot where I thought I could drill it out and the side frame would come off the thin metal bolster, but . . . drilling hasn't gotten me anywhere so far. I've drilled almost all the way through (past the point where the metal bolster is inserted) and something more seems to be holding the bolster in place yet. Do you know the best way to take these apart?
One thing I did since my earlier post of this topic was to "force" the existing wheel set out of one set of trucks and replace them with some new steel wheels I had (that were insulated one side) and this improved performance some; especially considering I did only one set of trucks. But the wheels are still sloppy in the frames and that seems like it could effect conductivity big time. The other thing that may have helped is that the inside of the frame where the axle spins wasn't clean (despite my best efforts at picking and soaking and brushing) and I got those spots nice and shiny. Still the slop in the wheels . . .
That slop in the tracking of the wheels in the frame is the other reason I'd like to take the trucks apart (without destroying them) and reassemble them with a tiny nut and bolt; maybe even a set screw? I'm thinking if I could initially get just one side frame off and get it moved in maybe even just a mm?
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 2087 ~
Member Since: March 16 2013 ~
Last Visit: July 05 2018
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - December 10 2013 : 02:45:27 AM
|
The sideframes are zamac, but the center bolster is steel, which will take solder, while zamac won't. Zamac can be difficult to drill through, but oil helps the bit cut through faster. I know people have drilled these out and tapped them so that the wheels are removable, and the screw could also be a wire attachment point. (I tin the wire with solder, make a loop with the tinned end for the screw, and make sure the screw head traps some of the insulation for strain relief.)
Normally I just bend the steel part to free the wheels and then bend it back. If the sideframe hasn't let go yet maybe you need a larger bit, or you haven't drilled far enough.
The Tyco Depot
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 3927 ~
Member Since: June 20 2007 ~
Last Visit: November 19 2015
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - December 10 2013 : 10:22:21 AM
|
| Thanks Nelson. We'll see what happens.
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 2087 ~
Member Since: March 16 2013 ~
Last Visit: July 05 2018
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
Status:
offline
| |
Posted - December 10 2013 : 2:46:54 PM
|
quote:Thanks Nelson. We'll see what happens.
Originally posted by Barry - December 10 2013 : 10:22:21 AM
|
I wouldn't worry too much about back and forth action of the wheelsets in the truck frames. If anything, they will probably improve pickup with a self-cleaning action when the axles rub the insides of the truck journals. You might also consider replacing the trucks with sprung archbar trucks. I did this on the Bachmann 4-4-0 I was working on a couple of months ago, and it runs pretty good, inspite of the styrene tube driveshaft I made for it.
"S"tring boB
|
|
Posts: 0 ~
Member Since: October 09 2013 ~
Last Visit: December 13 2013
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - December 10 2013 : 11:21:04 PM
|
I usually put a tiny amount of automatic transmission fluid on the ends of the axles to inhibit corrosion where they contact the side frames. There should be just enough to coat the bearing surfaces but not enough to get on other surfaces where dirt could stick.
Carpe Manana!
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 2405 ~
Member Since: September 17 2013 ~
Last Visit: May 01 2025
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - December 11 2013 : 01:00:40 AM
|
| "S"tring Bob, Tell me who makes good arch bar tender trucks. Thanks. Barry
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 2087 ~
Member Since: March 16 2013 ~
Last Visit: July 05 2018
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - December 11 2013 : 08:55:18 AM
|
Barry, take a look at Tichy. https://www.tichytraingroup.com/Shop/tabid/91/SearchValue/truck/Default.aspx They make what I think is a nice arch bar truck. You can get them in a ten pack and they also come as a kit. The kit form takes a little time to build but they are very nice. The ones I have seen could be adapted to pick up power from metal wheels. The kit comes with their plastic wheel sets.
Randy
Edited by - rbturner on December 11 2013 08:59:23 AM
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 365 ~
Member Since: April 30 2011 ~
Last Visit: April 22 2025
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - December 11 2013 : 8:17:19 PM
|
| Hey Randy, I like their (Tichy) products and those trucks look nice, but I'm wondering what kind of fancy tricks I need to perform to transfer the "juice" from the wheels to the metal tender frame? What do you do? Like run a little wiper from the tender frame to rub the axle? Thanks. Barry
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 2087 ~
Member Since: March 16 2013 ~
Last Visit: July 05 2018
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - December 11 2013 : 11:48:46 PM
|
quote:I'm wondering what kind of fancy tricks I need to perform to transfer the "juice" from the wheels to the metal tender frame? What do you do? Like run a little wiper from the tender frame to rub the axle? Thanks. Barry
Originally posted by Barry - December 11 2013 : 8:17:19 PM
|
Wipers should be mounted on the trucks, themselves, to avoid messing up the swivel. Then, you'd either need to design the wiper to contact the tender frame at the truck bolster or run a very flexible wire up from the wiper to the tender frame.
See the pickup arrangement MDC uses on plastic tender trucks here:
http://www.hoseeker.net/mdcinstructionscars/roundhouseroldtimertender404pg1.jpg
Carpe Manana!
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 2405 ~
Member Since: September 17 2013 ~
Last Visit: May 01 2025
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - December 12 2013 : 02:49:25 AM
|
Hey Don, Thanks. That drawing of the "pick up shoe" helps (I never thought to look at hoseeker for something like that; good to know).
Just for the sake of others who might be as foolish as myself ('course, if that's the case, they wouldn't have taken time to look at something like this either; Ha!) . . . here's a couple of photos of how I occupied some time this evening and disfigured a pair of Mantua tender trucks. Though I will say it was like going to school . . . "now I know".
So for anyone who is interested . . .
To begin, I wanted to remove the truck side frame (Zmac, I learned) from the bolster (stamped steel). There is a circular depression on the casting (circled in red in the photo below) that corresponds to a matching hole in the bolster.
I proceeded to drill that depression and hopefully remove the grasp of the side frame on the bolster (first photo below). This hole did not release the bolster and I began the second hole you see in the photo to remove what appeared to be some kind of "pin" that might be locking the bolster in place yet (see red line to this in the second photo below).
As it turns out, that part of the casting wasn't any sort of a pin. Then, I believe it was Nelson that told me, I just needed to drill a bigger hole in that spot where the depression in the casting is. I believe I ended up like using a 5/64". However . . . I did find it is important to make sure the bit is centered pretty accurately or you end up having to adjust/file the hole size to properly line up the screw. So . . . I ended up using a jeweler's saw and cutting off a piece of the bolster. In the photo, you can see the raised part of the casting that protrudes into the hole in the bolster to hold it in place. And remember that what you are looking at in the photo below is a side frame after half of the bolster containing portion has been cut away. This photo doesn't show the hole I drilled because this is the "other" side frame where I just went straight away to cutting it for the purpose of seeing if a single fine cut would release the bolster. However, at this point I can't see how a single fine cut could release the bolster since there still would remain the "protrusion" into the bolster hole.
So, at this time, I've ended up with this dandy set of trucks you see in the photo below. They do work. And note that the way I got the slop out of the wheel sets was to simply bend the side frames which I certainly could have done without going through all this.
In the end, I did not improve the performance but I did only one set of trucks. The big thing I accomplished was being able to clean out the journals where the axle rests. And I do believe there are only so many times you can bend these Mantua truck bolsters to get the wheels out to replace them, or to clean the journals . . . do it too much and they'll break.
So I'm going to try and do the other set of trucks by limiting my intervention to just drilling and then maybe using some kind of a "puller" to remove the bolster from the casting (it really is in there pretty tight).
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 2087 ~
Member Since: March 16 2013 ~
Last Visit: July 05 2018
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - December 12 2013 : 09:56:02 AM
|
Appears to be a job well done to me.
Randy
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 365 ~
Member Since: April 30 2011 ~
Last Visit: April 22 2025
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - December 12 2013 : 12:19:52 PM
|
I forgot to show a photo of the bolster . . .
and the saw cut that did not release the bolster . . .
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 2087 ~
Member Since: March 16 2013 ~
Last Visit: July 05 2018
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
Status:
offline
| |
Posted - December 12 2013 : 6:19:50 PM
|
quote:"S"tring Bob, Tell me who makes good arch bar tender trucks. Thanks. Barry
Originally posted by Barry - December 11 2013 : 01:00:40 AM
|
Hi, Barry:
I got my archbar trucks from Kadee. I replaced the wheelsets with 28' ONES and had to move the trucks out about 1.8" so they wouldn't bind on the motor. I had photos posted here showing what I did, but have forgotten what I did. If you go back through the LOTW list you may find them.
Also, Ebay has a set of archbar tender trucks for the 4-6-0 or 4-8-0 on Ebay right now. There are some other dealers who have tender trucks also. If I find them, I'll tell you where they are
"S"tring boB
|
|
Posts: 0 ~
Member Since: October 09 2013 ~
Last Visit: December 13 2013
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - December 13 2013 : 4:06:20 PM
|
| Thanks "S"tring Bob, I'll try and look that up.
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 2087 ~
Member Since: March 16 2013 ~
Last Visit: July 05 2018
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - December 24 2013 : 2:34:09 PM
|
Well I went through a lot of shenanigans and presently I have the original trucks and original wheels back on the tender (with the exception that the one set of trucks has been disfigured by my hacking and bolting). But . . . the locomotive runs pretty decent. I just cleaned, and then cleaned again, and polished, and bent and adjusted . . . which is what I should have done in the first place. And . . . because of past experience with greatly improved performance resulting from using a pair of Precision Scale Company trucks, I ordered a pair of period correct arch bar trucks. I'm excited about the potential for a significant improvement in performance, but on the other hand, getting the original equipment to perform optimally is quite satisfying.
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 2087 ~
Member Since: March 16 2013 ~
Last Visit: July 05 2018
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - December 24 2013 : 3:33:14 PM
|
Barry, despite all your hacking the repair looks great, and it seems like they will look none the worse for wear when installed. I'm not sure what you meant about a pin holding the sideframes; they used a press to punch the zamac through the hole in the steel bolster... basically a crimp. But now that you have the sideframes securely screwed to the bolster, conductivity may be improved. I've seen some of these trucks where the fit between bolster & sideframes was loose. Now you also have attachment points for hardwiring it.
One thing: it looks like the center of the bolster is bowed up. If you haven't already, I would take the truck apart and flatten it with non-marring long nose pliers to keep the tender from rocking or riding too high. The rear kingpin on the tender floor already has 2 little points that allow the rear truck to rock side-to-side; at least that's how it is on the 4-8-0 I picked up recently.
The Tyco Depot
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 3927 ~
Member Since: June 20 2007 ~
Last Visit: November 19 2015
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - December 25 2013 : 1:29:52 PM
|
| Hey Nelson, Yeah, I did flatten the center of the bolster and you are correct; it wasn't so much of a "pin" as a raised area where the zamac casting is allowed to fill the hole in the bolster. And, the bolster was a bit sloppy in the side frames, so the little screws did tighten that up. In the end, I guess this little adventure was like going to school; I've learned just a "hair" more about how to tune up a locomotive and tender trucks. Thanks. Barry
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 2087 ~
Member Since: March 16 2013 ~
Last Visit: July 05 2018
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
Home
Forums
Events Calendar
Forum Admins & Mods
Register
