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babuff
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 Posted - August 14 2013 : 3:19:41 PM
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does anyone know what diesel model roco made? I found a frame and drive with a rounded end. most likely a cab unit with 2 axle trucks. the frame is a heavy cast, with a huge can motor.
sorry no pics yet, my camera is on vacation with a friend till monday.
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Posted - August 14 2013 : 4:05:25 PM
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My guess based on your description is that it is an FP-7 that Roco made for Atlas late 80s/early 90s.
-Thomas
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Posted - August 14 2013 : 8:03:44 PM
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I agree with the FP-7...
The ROCO motors have been around since WWII... these same motors were originally built to be aileron motors for the fighter planes.
The motors were stored... and then bought and put into model train locomotives.
1940-45... and still running today.
Athearn's newer MP15's were built with those ROCO motors... ironically, the MP15's were EMD's last multi-purpose yard switchers in mass production.
ROCO motors... the "Live Forever" locomotives. Hearty and growling since, actually the late 1960's... Made in Austria.
The ROCO motors were also put into Model Power/AHM diesels (i.e. E-units), Luiliputt steam and electric locomotives.
ER Models also had the good ROCO's.
Atlas eventually went to China for the motors... except for the KATO version locomotives... they are Japanese.
...found my ROCO soapbox...
JOHN
I don't have a one track mind. It depends on the turn-out.
"I love your catenary!"
Is that a power-trip or just another pick-up line?
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Posted - August 14 2013 : 10:32:14 PM
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Athearn never sold an MP15, but Con-Cor did, and they also marketed both the GP38/40 that had been previously offered by Atlas and the E7/9 previously offered by Model Power. However that big can motor wouldn't fit in an MP15. The Con-Cor MP15 I have has a Kato drive in it.
So far as I know the huge can motor was unique to the HO E-units and the Shark/Alco FA, but maybe it was in the FP7 also. It also was used in their O-scale F9 (sold as an Atlas product).
Atlas's hood units were considered top of the line in the 1970s and had a long, flat sided can motor that allowed for a scale width hood. They also made an adapter to use that motor to drive their turntable.
AHM's E-units were done by Rivarossi and a different animal entirely from the Model Power and Con-Cor version. AHM did sell some Roco-made pieces, but IIRC the only locomotive was the C424. Which oddly uses it's own unique drive.
It seems likely the OP's frame is for an FP7 or an E-unit, the Shark/FA frame isn't rounded off as much as the EMD type frame would be.
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babuff
Little Six
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Posted - August 16 2013 : 11:26:46 AM
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| I cheked the dimensions and this thing is too long for an F unit and the nose end is shaped more like a shark or PA unit. It was ineresting to learn about this motor as it is quite large (1 3/16 inches in diam.) I was not aware that they made double shafted drives back then. It is stamped " made in austria"
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Posted - August 16 2013 : 5:56:25 PM
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Sounds like an E unit......to me anyway....Possibly a PA, BUT I'm not sure if they made PA-1's.....
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid... 
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - August 16 2013 : 6:25:42 PM
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there is a topic posted here on that subject with lots on info and photos.
http://www.tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6117
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on August 16 2013 6:27:51 PM
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Posted - August 17 2013 : 01:17:43 AM
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quote: Athearn never sold an MP15, but Con-Cor did, and they also marketed both the GP38/40 that had been previously offered by Atlas and the E7/9 previously offered by Model Power. However that big can motor wouldn't fit in an MP15. The Con-Cor MP15 I have has a Kato drive in it.
Originally posted by lvrr325Â -Â August 14 2013Â :Â 10:32:14 PM
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Athearn MP15AC Genesis I was talking about: http://www.athearn.com/Search/Default.aspx?SearchTerm=MP15
 Check the link!
They ran production and sales until 2008 and is now rerunning production.
When Athearn made them the first time, they had the ROCO motors in them.
John
I don't have a one track mind. It depends on the turn-out.
"I love your catenary!"
Is that a power-trip or just another pick-up line?
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Posted - August 17 2013 : 01:30:28 AM
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No Roco PA-1. Probably for the Shark/FA.
Was not aware of the Athearm MP15; given production was in China at that point it's odd they'd use a Roco motor in them. Certainly the motor was not the fat can motor found in the Shark/FA and E7/9 - it wouldn't fit.
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Posted - August 17 2013 : 2:16:49 PM
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I hate to say this, but I seriously doubt ANY motor is made by Roco.....These motors guys, are sub contracted....The model company contacts a electric motor company to best fit the area the motor will go, voltage, and Amperage, and then the electronics company, designs a motor based off this information....When done, its tested, and if it passes, the sub contract is born between company "A" and company "B"....
SO, the motor used in the Roco, FA and Sharks is a big one, who made it? Figure that out, and then take the motor that's in the MP-15 from Athearn, and I bet you'll find its the same company that made the large round motor for the Shark and the FA and there ya go.....
For instance.....I have a MTH, HO scale SD70ACe.....Taken apart.....I got to looking, its got a Canon Precision flat can motor in it. the EXACT same size as those I use to repower steam with the "DN-22" difference? YES! The MTH model, is double shafted.....Where mine is single shaft......Also the Igarashi motors, are EXACTLY the same as those found in the boilers, of the new "flywheel" drive Rivarossi loco's, remove the factory flywheels, press onto the new motor shaft, and solder on the wires to make it run, and its a SNAP IN FIT!!!!! Price? WELL BELOW, what you would pay from either MTH or Rivarossi for one of these motors! AND the Igarashi I found to be a drop in fit, seem to be just a tad bit stronger then the factory used motors1
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - August 18 2013 : 02:58:10 AM
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John, Roco always made their own motors, and still do. Their large motors in the big carbody diesels like the Model Power E's, Sharks, FA's, and Atlas F-units were well known. They also had a flat-sided can that was used in the hood units they made for Atlas.
They have better motors now, and there was a manufacturing video of theirs made a few years ago that showed the armatures being wound and each motor being assembled & tested. I think their new motors are used in some Athearn Genesis diesels.
The Tyco Depot
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babuff
Little Six
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Posted - August 20 2013 : 12:09:05 PM
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Ok guys finally got some pics so we can see what I am working with here I suspect it is a shark nose which would let me use an old "midnight express" shell al la NYC. the motor is not marked in any way so let us see.
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Posted - August 20 2013 : 5:25:46 PM
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This is what gets me.....I got that same motor pictured here, came out of I believe a E-9, from Model Power, that was Roco powered, BUT, heres the catch, the motor in the end where the white-ish plastic is has "GE Electric" stamped/casted into the white plastic......This is why I questioned Roco making their own motors.....And this was a factory unit, that I myself ripped apart for parts......I have not had to take anything apart since then, that was Roco made, but this is what I have found....Sadly, I should have snapped a picture of that motor as it was taken out to sell to a guy that needed it on a web site years ago.....I also have Lionel HO that has had the same brand of motors in them as well....."GE Electric" so.....I have found that those specific motors, to be really fast, and extremely strong......
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - August 20 2013 : 9:44:35 PM
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There were flat cans made by GE that were used in some HO Lionel diesels that had chassis made by Roco. That's the only time I've seen a GE logo on a motor associated with them. All other Roco motors I've seen like the one above (flat or round) have no visible name, but they are definitely Roco design.
Subcontracting out for motors is a relatively recent trend that started in the early 90's when modelers began to expect better performance (that's when Rivarossi started using Igarashi cans). Prior to that all manufacturers like RR, Mehano, Mantua, Athearn, etc. made their own. Roco's latest generation of motors were even better than these.
I have the factory video saved on my drive, if you want me to send it to you. It's all in German, tho.
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - August 21 2013 : 03:31:01 AM
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Definitely......interesting!!!!!
I have a BUNCH of the Lionel flat cans made by "GE"....
As for the Igarashi motors, I myself have set up a account with them, direct..... I will be using Igarashi for all my repowering here directly when all begins......Just to goo of a motor not too! Both single and double shafted units, with my own turned brass flywheels.....Balanced, of course!!!!
The whole Roco motor thing is interesting, I wonder if that E-9 I had taken apart for parts, was worth it in running form now, as I never tested it, I picked it up in store a few years ago for like $12.00 or so, and got home tried it on the test track, and it ran pretty well, BUT, knowing this now, I wonder if that wasn't a repower of some sort, as the motor if I recall correctly, was a perfect fit into the place the what seems factory one, would have been put. In the exact same way as I don't remember it being modified by any sort.....
AND, we all know that GE made/makes a BUNCH of different 12 volt motors so.....Has me questioning things I remember now.....Come to think of it, I have that E-9 frame too!!!!
Could have it been a Model Power change?
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - August 22 2013 : 05:14:35 AM
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Pictures or it didn't happen.
I'd really need to see it. It's like hearing someone say they found a PM-1 in a Mantua with the Mabuchi logo.
Those Roco motors were the best on the market in the 70's and 80's, so that makes a repower less likely, tho not impossible. It would be difficult to find one that large. I've found green epoxy putty on the windings in a few I've taken apart so I figured owners were balancing them, but now that I think of it that was likely a factory balancing job. I've seen it done on other motors. Even back then they put some effort into their QC.
The only thing I can come up with is that since we've heard Roco's large motors were originally designed for the aircraft industry, maybe some were subcontracted out to GE and were so stamped, then ended up as surplus and used in MP locos. Just a guess.
I'm interested to know what you're paying per motor for the Igarashis.
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babuff
Little Six
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Posted - August 24 2013 : 10:11:49 AM
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| this has to be a roco built motor as there is nothing stamped on the ends (or anywhere for that matter ) as for it being a repower motor this thing fits the curved mount in the frame exactly. this motor is very powerful and quite fast. as for the body my MIDNIGHT SPECIAL shell fits perfectly and is now in my soak tank, so we know it is a shark nose. thanks for the info. now I can back to finishing my c630's in the background.
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babuff
Little Six
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Posted - August 24 2013 : 10:15:27 AM
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| this has to be a roco built motor as there is nothing stamped on the ends (or anywhere for that matter ) as for it being a repower motor this thing fits the curved mount in the frame exactly. this motor is very powerful and quite fast. as for the body my MIDNIGHT SPECIAL shell fits perfectly and is now in my soak tank, so we know it is a shark nose. thanks for the info. now I can back to finishing my c630's in the background.
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Posted - August 26 2013 : 04:27:27 AM
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You know I just picked up a Model Power FA-2, and got to looking, its got a RF-16 "Shark" frame under it..... I have yet to test it but I got a question.....I also have a E-9 A unit from Model Power with Roco power, were they fast? My E-9, I've run, it seemingly, S-L-O-W.....I have not yet tried to run the FA-2 yet to see if its a fast runner or a slow, puller, anyone have inquiries on the speeds of these things? Specially the E-9 units......
As I have to say, besides the one I was talking about in a earlier posting, these 2 are the only 2, I have had in the shop EVER and well....as it sounds theres a reason for it! Not to mention, I have never had anyone want one painted either so......I guess my ole Pap was right......"There's a first, for EVERYTHING!" Nice thing is, I own and have owned all 3 I have ever gotten so......
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
Edited by - EM-1 on August 26 2013 04:29:58 AM
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Posted - August 26 2013 : 5:59:37 PM
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Yep, they made an FA-2 shell for the Shark chassis, but a lot of guys don't want them because that makes them longer than they should be. That may be why you've never had any come through for painting.
I think my Model Power E units have a higher top speed than my Sharks and FA's, which is odd because I they should have the same gearing. In fact, there are two versions of the Shark drive: and earlier one with coarse gearing like the E's, and a later one with much finer gears that was also sold by ER Models. Also odd is that the units with different gearing pace each other perfectly. Maybe the one with finer teeth has double-lead worms and it was done to improve noise, not change the ratio... I never checked.
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Posted - August 26 2013 : 6:40:23 PM
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If the gear diameters didn't change, finer teeth wouldn't change the ratio.
Glenn
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, "... I drank what?"
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Posted - August 26 2013 : 7:05:15 PM
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quote:If the gear diameters didn't change, finer teeth wouldn't change the ratio.
Originally posted by gmoney - August 26 2013 : 6:40:23 PM
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It would in relation to the worm driving the worm gear, unless more leads are added.
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Edited by - NickelPlate759 on August 26 2013 7:05:43 PM
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Posted - August 26 2013 : 8:43:48 PM
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quote: quote:If the gear diameters didn't change, finer teeth wouldn't change the ratio.
Originally posted by gmoney - August 26 2013 : 6:40:23 PM
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It would in relation to the worm driving the worm gear, unless more leads are added.
Originally posted by NickelPlate759Â -Â August 26 2013Â :Â 7:05:15 PM
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I misinterpreted your previous post (my bad!); I agree that the ratio would indeed change unless you changed the number of worm leads and worm gear teeth by the same factor.
Glenn
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, "... I drank what?"
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Posted - August 27 2013 : 05:09:45 AM
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Damn you guys!!!!! get me into trouble LOL
I have to look now to see what in the hell is going on as my E-9 is a slow running loco then the Sharks... THEN you havta bring up those damned E-R Models Sharks, (I have a set of those too!) I also have like an array of Model Power Sharks to add to all this FUN......
Question is, I have to sit down, dig these damned things out, and see what I "need" for my sets, to be done, and what may be "extra" if such a thing exists with me, and decide whats going to become of those, not needed.....NOW, for sure the E-R Model units, will be kept, they are matching B&O sets.......I traded off a double repowering job, on 2 Rivarossi B&O 2-10-2's for those 2 units some time ago, back when they were new! RUN? They'll pull yer freakin house!
BUT, what I'm running into is, I need a few "B" ubit, RF-16B's OR DR4-4-16's......To match the "sets" I thought about "turning" a RF-16 ABA set into a DR4-4-16 set, ABA!!!
THEN.........And OMG only then.....
I got the whole "TYCO" and Mantua Shark collection......Holy Crapoli.......(Ya can't tell I like the looks of the "Sharks" huh?)
BUT, I have got to look over my E-9 by Model Power, and all the extra parts now to repair them, as this opens up a whole new ball game! One I have NEVER ran into.....
Nelson, the length thing is interesting in the FA-2's.....by Model Power....I thought I read, in a magazine, some time ago, that the MP FA-2's resembled the FA-1's? *Shakes head* Christ, help me.....that too opens up a whole other story..... my "FA" collection......I got I think a ABBA set of Proto2000 FA-2's.....I can't remember, but I don't think I have $50.00 in all 4 of them! To add to it, I got all the Model Power (yet again) units that are FA-2's......Again? Problem being, I need "B" units for the MP models!
I'd simply LOVE to trade off the Proto-2000 units as they are ALL Undecorated, I think, but one, so an ABB set, to be painted in B&O colors.....
To add to the cowl units? RR E-8's.....OK, OK, OK, I'll stop now! *Head begins to unswell*
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - August 27 2013 : 5:06:48 PM
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I had one MP FA with a single dead pole in the motor. Ran great but if it happened to stop there you had to push it back and forth to get it to go the next time. If it really hung up you had to pop the shell and turn the armature a bit.
IMHO the quality on them was a little spotty.
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