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 Posted - October 24 2012 : 7:29:17 PM
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Well, that seals it. I've pretty much given up on the disk drive motor retrofit solution for PT drives, since the second disk tray motor failed on me after a short amount of run time. The precious metal brushes in these motors are just not designed for high current draw, and they burn through quickly. Consider how light their duty is in a drive where they only have to position a laser head or open and close the tray every now & then: it's low current, and low duty cycle. The only way around the problem is to attach small carbon brushes to these wipers, which I will probably try at some point. (I have a number of Rivarossis repowered with motors that have PM brushes, and there aren't a lot of motor options due to space.)
Anyway, I dug out the spare PT motor I kept and put it into my modified 2-8-0. I did a complete service, and decided to try adding a thrust washer to the pinion side of the armature. These are NWSL 1.6mm ID washers, part #110-4. I was amazed at how much better the loco seemed to run, with consistent starts and low speed... the spongy response was gone, and has stayed consistent for a week. I just did the same for my Royal Blue, with the same result, so it's looking less like a coincidence.
The washer does two things: it provides a smooth bearing surface, and pushes the armature closer to the brush plate. They are .010" thick, and that takes up almost all the end play.
Time will tell if this is a good tuneup trick, but it's a cheap solution and well worth giving it a try.
The Tyco Depot
Edited by - NickelPlate759 on October 24 2012 10:22:16 PM
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Posted - October 24 2012 : 7:54:49 PM
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Nelson, did you do this to the standared PT or a remotored? A wee bit confused honestly.
" Heck with counting 'em rivets, TRAINS ARE FOR FUN! Not called the Mad Scientist for nothing either!"
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Posted - October 24 2012 : 8:20:24 PM
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Justin, I added the thrust washer to the stock PT.
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Posted - October 24 2012 : 8:32:16 PM
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OK.
" Heck with counting 'em rivets, TRAINS ARE FOR FUN! Not called the Mad Scientist for nothing either!"
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Posted - October 24 2012 : 9:12:12 PM
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| well its a good idea anyway But would a brand new motow work instead of a used one?
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Posted - October 24 2012 : 10:09:08 PM
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Ben, IMO it wouldn't matter if it were new. All of these pancake can motors have precious metal brushes, and they seem too fragile. The arcing from the increased current draw burns through them. I'm going to try cutting some brush material into small rectangles and attach them to the wipers and see how that works.
As for the PT, I also gave the armature from my Royal Blue a spin in the drill and polished the commutator with 600 grit. That made a huge difference too, because it was a little rough and it made the brushes chirp.
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Posted - October 25 2012 : 07:53:30 AM
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I'm working on this idea! As far as I can see, from looking at the PT motor frame is it needs milled to fit the motor inside the original opening.....
I'll keep everyone posted when I have the machine work done! 
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - October 25 2012 : 11:43:25 AM
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Nick, to you think you could show a picture of where the thrust washer goes? I'm having a hard time picturing it in my already overfilled mind 
I've been watching all these PT remotor tips for quite a while, most of you know I've been trying to both repower a 2-8-0 and a C-630 for quite a while with some success and others, well I just can't seem to budget the time it seems (or the $)
so far all my attempts to "beef up my ALCo" has been fruitless or with limited results, the "junkyard dog", which was my last attempt, even on its own had no doggone traction whatsoever I'm almost half tempted to just take a 630 and just dual motor it.
still my issues is the "jump starts", the high end speed and the lack of pull, I dunno if twin motors will fix this or make it worse.
The PT really wasn't a bad idea, I just think going 5 pole instead of 3 would've been a better setup, unfortunately looking for a 5 pole gizmo that would "drop in" to a stock PT is close to impossible.
Either way I'm still looking for an easy, low cost way of getting this beast (my 630) back on the drag runs
just me Ray... and just because I have Tyco doesn't mean I am not a model railroader
Edited by - rgcw5 on October 25 2012 11:44:17 AM
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Posted - October 25 2012 : 12:11:32 PM
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rgcw5, Nelson has put the washer on the gear side under the armuture.
" Heck with counting 'em rivets, TRAINS ARE FOR FUN! Not called the Mad Scientist for nothing either!"
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Posted - October 25 2012 : 7:02:50 PM
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Ray, remove the pinion and pull out the armature, and put one washer on the shaft so it goes between the armature and the bearing on the gear side of the motor.
Pancake motor drives aren't anything new, in fact they are as old as standard gauge trains. The difference is they were built like heavy appliances, while the PT was built on the cheap.
John, are you just doing the disk drive motor retrofit, or are you modifying the brushes too?
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Posted - October 25 2012 : 9:22:11 PM
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Nelson, for now, I'm working on the disk drive retro fit....
What I have found is the size of the disk drive motor I have, seems alittle bit on the big side to fit within the confines of the shape of the PT TYCO motor truck... As I got to thinking when I machine the whole thing out to fit the motor, the top of the PT truck, has that spot for the spring, fitted with the new can motor will remove this part and I'm not sure that it was done on the others that I had seen!?
I have not touched the insides of the can motor yet.....I want to fit it first and then maybe see if the brushes inside the can motor can be modified to be less trouble for the future.
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - October 25 2012 : 10:11:27 PM
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John, I forgot about that. These motors are a little too thick to clear the truck mount / gimbal in the diesels. Someone found a source of motors for old Playstations a few years back that were larger diameter but didn't protrude from the truck block, so they cleared the mount. I think they were very low voltage motors, which would make them better for dual motoring in series.
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Posted - October 25 2012 : 11:11:38 PM
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John, This is the type motor I used in my dual motor C630.
http://www.mabuchi-motor.co.jp/cgi-bin/catalog/e_catalog.cgi?CAT_ID=rf_400ca
I wired them in series with a 75 ohm resistor in series also.
The motor blocks I machined have the top spring mount machined off.
/tyco/forum/uploaded/Ray Marinaccio/Dec20017.JPG
Ray
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Posted - October 25 2012 : 11:58:01 PM
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Nelson,
I'm not sure I'll have that issue with the thickness of the can motor, I was more saying of the following:
See my "red outlines" ????? Thats what I was meaning, I'd would like to keep those spring holders in place as close to factory as possible, UNLESS someone can tell me those springs aren't all what they're cracked up to be!?
Ray,
Thanks for posting that picture! I'll be using it as an reference! HOWEVER, I got another "mad" idea.......
*Evil Laugh*
I mold parts, right? Why can't I mold a PT truck to hold the motor, AFTER I machine the original? ALOT less machine work, and can be made to hold the motor in place outside of whats been done other wise all wound up into one casting!
Question tho Ray, what you got in the motors for cost? I'd be interested in buying one or so, just to try it out!
DAMN this is when I wished I had all the sand molding equipment! I'd die cast these babies!
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
Edited by - EM-1 on October 26 2012 12:01:33 AM
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Posted - October 25 2012 : 11:58:56 PM
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All I can say is you guys.......I'm gonna have some fun with this!
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - October 26 2012 : 12:07:34 AM
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John, is there any PT diesel that uses the mount with the spring to hold the power truck? I thought that was just on the rear truck on the 430, which would only be an issue if you powered both trucks. It would be easy enough to make a circular retainer for it, though.
P.S. Some gratuitous shots of my original installation. I screw mounted the motor for servicing and adjusting gear mesh.
A shot of it later with blackened running gear and a shortened drawbar.
The Tyco Depot
Edited by - NickelPlate759 on October 26 2012 12:19:38 AM
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Posted - October 26 2012 : 12:58:05 AM
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quote:
Ray,
Question tho Ray, what you got in the motors for cost? I'd be interested in buying one or so, just to try it out!
Originally posted by EM-1Â -Â October 25 2012Â :Â 11:58:01 PM
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I got the motors from old CD ROM drives, VCRs and CD players.
They can be found on line rather inexpencively.
The spring on top of the PT motors are used on the C630 and SD24 front and rear and the rear of all the other hood units with PT drives.
Ray
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Posted - October 26 2012 : 01:28:51 AM
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quote:
Time will tell if this is a good tuneup trick, but it's a cheap solution and well worth giving it a try.
Originally posted by NickelPlate759Â -Â October 24 2012Â :Â 7:29:17 PM
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I'll have to give this trick a try.
I recently rebuilt 4 PT locos I got at the last train show.
I was fortunate that they all had low milage on them and only needed a good cleaning.
Ray
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Posted - October 26 2012 : 01:48:59 AM
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Ray, based on my limited experience with these 2 units it does seem to be an improvement. Every motor I've seen has thrust washers, even the old Bachmann pancakes. Can't hurt, and since the brush springs push the armature toward the opposite bearing, only one is really necessary.
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Posted - October 17 2013 : 10:33:54 PM
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ok so I'm resurrecting a necrothread (hey it is October )
since I am STILL fiddling with my C-630's (my machinist friend has been working on a new mount for the Riv drive when he can) curious thoughts ran trough my head on the stacks of PT motors I have...
and then I wondered IF a rare earth magnet would help these hapless critters and if I could do anything to beef up the armature...
OR
is there a way of finding a 5 pole amature (yeah still have that thought) or how hard would it be to make one?
thoughts??
just me Ray... and just because I have Tyco doesn't mean I am not a model railroader
Edited by - rgcw5 on October 17 2013 10:34:59 PM
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Posted - October 20 2013 : 7:51:25 PM
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| I have a tyco PT motor that is no good and would like to try my hand at putting a pancake motor in the block. I have no idea where to start. Can someone provide me with a link to a motor that would best fit this block. I am new at this so any and all help is appreicted.
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Posted - October 20 2013 : 10:12:21 PM
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quote:I have a tyco PT motor that is no good and would like to try my hand at putting a pancake motor in the block. I have no idea where to start. Can someone provide me with a link to a motor that would best fit this block. I am new at this so any and all help is appreicted.
Originally posted by thetramp - October 20 2013 : 7:51:25 PM
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Try searching surplus stores and eBay for "RF300 motor". Here are a couple links that I found. Please note that some of these motors are 6V, not 12V.
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G18524
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17687
-Thomas
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Posted - October 20 2013 : 10:34:05 PM
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| Which should I use. 6V or 12V?
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Posted - October 20 2013 : 11:00:15 PM
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quote:Which should I use. 6V or 12V?
Originally posted by thetramp - October 20 2013 : 10:34:05 PM
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Definitely use 12V motors if you can find them.
The 6V versions may burn out, especially if you run your trains fast. On the other hand, if you run your trains slow, the 6V motors may be OK. I tend to run my trains slow, and so far the 6V motors I've used have not burned out. But I'm careful not to crank the throttle too high.
-Thomas
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Posted - October 20 2013 : 11:04:49 PM
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| Thanks for the info. I will look for a 12v.
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Posted - October 21 2013 : 12:16:20 AM
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AWAYS use 12 volt motors, old controls OR new ones with DCC, 12 volt is the way to go.....
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - October 21 2013 : 10:28:04 AM
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This definatly looks like an idea! If this motor works well as a "drop in" replacement for the PT I'll have a 630 up and pulling finally!
just me Ray... and just because I have Tyco doesn't mean I am not a model railroader
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Posted - December 06 2013 : 07:33:30 AM
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quote:Well, that seals it. I've pretty much given up on the disk drive motor retrofit solution for PT drives, since the second disk tray motor failed on me after a short amount of run time. The precious metal brushes in these motors are just not designed for high current draw, and they burn through quickly. Consider how light their duty is in a drive where they only have to position a laser head or open and close the tray every now & then: it's low current, and low duty cycle. The only way around the problem is to attach small carbon brushes to these wipers, which I will probably try at some point. (I have a number of Rivarossis repowered with motors that have PM brushes, and there aren't a lot of motor options due to space.)
Anyway, I dug out the spare PT motor I kept and put it into my modified 2-8-0. I did a complete service, and decided to try adding a thrust washer to the pinion side of the armature. These are NWSL 1.6mm ID washers, part #110-4. I was amazed at how much better the loco seemed to run, with consistent starts and low speed... the spongy response was gone, and has stayed consistent for a week. I just did the same for my Royal Blue, with the same result, so it's looking less like a coincidence.
The washer does two things: it provides a smooth bearing surface, and pushes the armature closer to the brush plate. They are .010" thick, and that takes up almost all the end play.
Time will tell if this is a good tuneup trick, but it's a cheap solution and well worth giving it a try.
Originally posted by NickelPlate759Â -Â October 24 2012Â :Â 7:29:17 PM
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I have used regular washers to shim the thrust bearings on motors. By installing them ahead of the shim, the bearing surface is still next to the armature so it turns against the smooth surface.
My problem currently is with the rewiring job I'm doing with the cab motor in a JWBowker. Apparently, the brush springs are weak. Does anybody know where I can get new ones. I could probably make some, but they are so tiny and fragile looking I would rather replace them.
I will try to post some photos of the rewiring project as time permits. I also want to install a constant lighting headlight. That will be a first for me, just a straight headlight. If it works, I may add constant lighting to my A-5 0-4-0 switch engine. Since I basically don't know what I'm doing, any advice is welcome
"S"tring boB
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Posted - December 06 2013 : 7:50:53 PM
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Bob, it's possible the brushes are just worn too short. If not, you can take the brush springs off the motor and twist the coil part until they are tighter. They can be fiddly to get back on, so I use tweezers. Once I get them back over the metal contacts I park the long end over the right side of the brush tubes and install the brushes. A magnifier helps.
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