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 Posted - August 26 2012 : 5:37:44 PM
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Well I was running my final excursions on my current layout today, being im building a new layout in about 2 weeks, anyways my Red-Box 2001 Mantua 4-6-2 SP #2486, with a smoke unit came down with a serious problem. She started smoking while idling, to be clear the throttle was at around 50% so she should've been moving, i'd nudge her and she'd take off again, then she stopped all together and smoke came out of her motor and smoke unit! When that happened i killed the power and took off the locomotive, i removed the metal boiler to let the motor cool down, after it cooled i lubed up the motor with proper lubricant, greased the gears, and reconnected all the wires to the tender and drawbar etc. Then when i tried to test her, she wouldnt move, no headlight just a cold locomotive. My biggest fear right now is her smoke being fried, i've already got 4 engines in my shop for ground up rebuilds and they are taking up most of my time plus with a new layout to build soon I really can't work on another engine. So can anyone give me a straight foward answer? Is the motor fried or have i connected the wires wrong, and or screwed them to the wrong hole, there are 3 so its confusing, see the photo below.
I buy, repair, and collect
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Hyde.
Edited by - SCVR66 on August 26 2012 5:38:13 PM
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 Posted - August 26 2012 : 6:18:05 PM
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I take it that's a later version with a can motor? If it had an open frame, there would only be one wire from the motor to the tender. So I'm guessing that the wire to the loco frame and the one to the drawbar post on the tender go to the motor, and the wire from the drawbar post on the loco is for the backup light.
It sounds more like a bad motor, although it could easily be brush dust packed into the commutator slots. If it's a Mabuchi can motor, I've had that happen to them, and it can mimic a shorted winding. The problem is that they aren't easy to get open for service.
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Posted - August 26 2012 : 7:09:52 PM
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yes 2001, last year of production can motor, tried using Labelle 107 in the holes of the motor to see if it'd free but it didn't i've just got to much on my plate to handle this engine right now.
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Hyde.
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Posted - August 26 2012 : 8:08:35 PM
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I suggest a remotor like from Yard Bird trains or get a hold of a new one from Mantua Classics.
" Heck with counting 'em rivets, TRAINS ARE FOR FUN! Not called the Mad Scientist for nothing either!"
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Posted - August 26 2012 : 8:47:35 PM
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Swore I saw motors availible on YardBird months ago now i can't find them, last time i emailed them and never got a reply, wasn't happy about that..
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Hyde.
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Posted - August 26 2012 : 10:34:41 PM
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Hyde,
You put oil in the holes of the motor casing? Thats NOT good! That oil gets onto the commutator, and then into the brushes the thing won't EVER run! Oil isn't good on brushes, period!
It sounds as if you got yourself a arching brush spring, OR oil had gotten into the commutator, as that will make it smoke and then do the stop and start thing, and finally, it will just stop and won't move.....What happens is the oil shorts the commutator plates that the brushes rub on to energize the motor. Which also causes it to over heat and that too isn't good for the commutator either......
Pull the motor, try to test run it with jumper cables to a power pack, and then see if it continues or does the same thing.....
If so, ding it and replace, as the can motors from Mabachi were known for this type thing anyway......
You can split it open but they are NOT fun putting back together, just as Nelson said.....BUT if you can I'd try it, to familiarize yourself with the newer can motors....
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid... 
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - August 27 2012 : 8:16:23 PM
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Labelle #107, not just any oil, it's MADE for going into commutators, its not petroleum based thats why, its done wonders on my engines, its never wrecked one before because it's good for it. i plan to take it apart later but i just have wayyy to many engines in pieces right now, that I have ZERO shop space in and out to give it. Thankfully only the motor is the problem here. I'll get crackin on it later.
I buy, repair, and collect
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Hyde.
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Posted - August 27 2012 : 10:04:45 PM
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SCVR66,
Labelle 107 is just a medium weight oil, it's not electrically conductive. It's made for bearings, not brushes. There shouldn't be any oil on them at all, because all it does is soak the brushes and trap brush dust in the slots, and then you get what you're experiencing. Keep all brushes dry.
Go to Home Depot and see if you can find CRC QD contact cleaner, or some of the plastic safe stuff from Radio Shack. Blast the motor out thoroughly through the screw holes and slots in the brush end, if there are any. Drain the motor using a paper towel to blot, and see if it runs. If not, try it again. If it runs, apply a small drop of oil to the bearings. If it's the motor I'm thinking of, I don't believe there's any access to the brush end bearing, so hopefully there's enough oil left in it. It's possible to drill out the end cap with a mini drill for oiling if that bearing is dry.
It may not be enough to get the crud out of the commutator gaps. If not, it requires disassembly & cleaning.
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Posted - August 28 2012 : 02:19:21 AM
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Um, NickelPlate759, have you checked Labelle's website? It says "OK to apply directly to motor brushes and bearings" under the Labelle 107 section.
http://www.con-cor.com/Labelle.html
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Posted - August 28 2012 : 06:12:11 AM
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I agree with Nelson, Brushes are to remain dry, NEVER oiled as he mentioned, the oil collects the dust into the commutator gaps and that makes them smoke and if enough heat is brought to this area, it will destroy a motor!
So, when all is said and done with and its time to "maintain" your locomotive fleet, like a real automobile, you are required to then give it an "oil change" I never thought I'd see the day!
As far as Labelle goes, I'm sorry, I don't care what they tell you.....Their oil is NOT to be in or around the brushes! I have Labelle oils that say they are plastic safe, thats CRAP! NO Petroleum based product, is plastic safe, unless your adding a micro drop to an area that has VERY LITTLE plastic in, or around it......
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - August 28 2012 : 3:31:11 PM
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quote:Um, NickelPlate759, have you checked Labelle's website? It says "OK to apply directly to motor brushes and bearings" under the Labelle 107 section.
Originally posted by weekendrailroader - August 28 2012 : 02:19:21 AM
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Yup, and I'm sure the good folks at Labelle will be all too happy to pay a house call and service all of your can motors when they start stuttering, arcing and smoking. It seems SCVRR is the victim of bad advice. Carbon brushes should NEVER be oiled, like John said. In fact, I just read old AHM instructions for one of their Mehano diesels that warned against oil on the brushes. The phosphor bronze wipers you find in low voltage toy motors do need lube, but they're usually greased. Labelle should take that off of their website. Oily brushes is what killed many PT motors.
Generally the smaller the commutator, the more prone it is to fouling. Larger motors like those in S and O aren't as susceptible, but even if it doesn't result in shorted commutator sections, it will cause spongy performance, especially when the motor is cold. Oil cooks and thickens on the commutator.
I bought a good Sagami years ago as a replacement for a Riv Pacific motor. The performance was good, but sluggish when cold, and never quite what I expected. A few years ago I finally cracked it open, and guess what I found? Oil had gotten on the brushes when they oiled it at the factory. After a thorough degreasing, it runs better than it ever did new.
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Posted - August 28 2012 : 6:00:19 PM
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Okay guys Labelle is NOT a petroleum based compound! Thats why it's good and safe for commutators, i've never had a motor blow out on me because of it, i never even used 107 on my 4-6-2s commutator! In fact it was the first time i even removed the shell!  All i did when i got it was oiled all moving parts, the motor shaft, greased the gears, and cleaned the wheels and thats all it needed. Motor overheated because of the smoke unit, nothing else.
i disagree that Labelle isn't safe, its perfectly fine and I sure trust them, being ive been using it for a year and never had a problem yet. I appreciate the input but I know the products I maintain my locomotives with.
I buy, repair, and collect
http://scvr.weebly.com/
http://seyboldlocomotiveworks.weebly.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheDeputation?feature=watch
Hyde.
Edited by - SCVR66 on August 28 2012 6:02:34 PM
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Posted - August 28 2012 : 8:10:53 PM
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I agree with Nelson, oil does kill motors! I know for a fact becuase that same oil killed a Pittman in a Mantua of mine.
" Heck with counting 'em rivets, TRAINS ARE FOR FUN! Not called the Mad Scientist for nothing either!"
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Posted - August 28 2012 : 8:39:53 PM
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quote:Okay guys Labelle is NOT a petroleum based compound! Thats why it's good and safe for commutators, i've never had a motor blow out on me because of it, i never even used 107 on my 4-6-2s commutator! In fact it was the first time i even removed the shell! All i did when i got it was oiled all moving parts, the motor shaft, greased the gears, and cleaned the wheels and thats all it needed. Motor overheated because of the smoke unit, nothing else.
i disagree that Labelle isn't safe, its perfectly fine and I sure trust them, being ive been using it for a year and never had a problem yet. I appreciate the input but I know the products I maintain my locomotives with.
Originally posted by SCVR66Â -Â August 28 2012Â :Â 6:00:19 PM
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First off, there is NO WAY a smoke unit overheated a motor! They are no where that close, not to mention the smoke unit NEVER EVER gets that hot!
Whats happening here is the lube your adding to the motor is "cooking" on the warm commutator.....This will HAPPEN to ANY and ALL motors due to the heat generated by means of friction, on the brushes, it collects, and when it heats up it runs........... Vegetable oil would do the SAME thing, and its NOT a petroleum product, either! What do you think the Labelle #107 is made of? I BET vital parts of my anatomy, its a vegetable based oil......So, this in turn bears to ask a question......When a kitchen of ANY sort catches fire from cooking oil how does that happen?, does it ever occur to you that the vegetable oil creates heat? Same goes for your commutator, its the oven the smoke is coming off the lube you used, its that simple!
Sad thing is, this heat thats being generated, is also prone to swelling, and this will attack the motor armature shims to remove play from the motor worm gear mesh, this in turn will make that shim, swell, AND THEN and only then the amount of the lube on it, will break it down, gum up the shaft from spinning and then create even more heat......
I been repairing trains for the better part of my life and have seen it all, this is one that I'll argue till I'm at my last breath, oil of any sort, petroleum, or other will KILL a motor, I do NOT care what any of these companies say or tell the general public......This is one of those "bad advice strikes the wallet" as you may wind up getting to buy a new motor, if you don't cease the use......its that simple, they are giving extremely bad advice!
I bet it happens not to long from now if it doesn't cook the motor first all in one puff!
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - August 28 2012 : 8:40:42 PM
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SCVRR, you're right about it not being petroleum based -- any plastic safe oil is synthetic, which is why it's also safe to use synthetic motor oils as well -- but it isn't good for brushes & commutators for the reasons already stated. All that means is it won't attack the plastic parts of the motor.
It would still be worth the price of some contact cleaner to see if you can't revive it before buying a replacement. Anything could have happened from a shorted winding to the commutator falling apart, but those can motors are pretty tough.
EDIT: ^ What John said. ^ Take it from two guys who have been doing this sort of work probably longer than you've been breathing.
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Edited by - NickelPlate759 on August 28 2012 8:46:22 PM
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Posted - August 28 2012 : 9:41:20 PM
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Well you guys to realize that I never ever oiled the motor at all?! How it was treated before it came into my ownership is beyond me, the locomotive is 11 years old and was bought by my favorite train store and with money from my birthday bought it. The only time I ever remove the boiler is for a thorough cleaning and inspection, on any ebay find thats used, I just clean the wheels, oil the moving parts, grease the gears and when it is running up to my standards I give it a break in run. This 4-6-2 was no different, remember I didnt oil the motor at all, didn't even plan to. Say what you want about Labelle, but its made every steamer i have smoother and quieter. Bu t i do greatly appreciate the input! 
I buy, repair, and collect
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http://seyboldlocomotiveworks.weebly.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheDeputation?feature=watch
Hyde.
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Posted - August 28 2012 : 9:50:50 PM
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quote:yes 2001, last year of production can motor, tried using Labelle 107 in the holes of the motor to see if it'd free but it didn't i've just got to much on my plate to handle this engine right now.
Originally posted by SCVR66Â -Â August 26 2012Â :Â 7:09:52 PM
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So which is it? This posting from Posted - August 26 2012 : 7:09:52 PM says that you, yourself did do it and then your last post you say you didn't?
I don't know but you need to take real service advice, I'm not here to bust your stones, I'm here to help, and thats what I'm doing or trying to do, and as far as I can see, Nelson too!
When that motor is cooked and you spend $40 to $50 in a new one from Yardbird Classic Trains, maybe, just maybe you'll listen to this thread, the next time around!
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - August 28 2012 : 10:19:13 PM
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| try flushing with alcohol, you have nothing to lose
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Posted - August 29 2012 : 7:38:40 PM
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John, meant no disrespect but labelle was NOT put into the motor while the locomotive was in service. AFTER the motor smoked up I tried putting Labelle into the motor to free it up. I have yet to see if this works and I'm in no rush whats so ever. With an ebay item auction coming to a close within 2 hours got to try and win it plus i just bought more paint to repaint my Mantua 0-4-0 SCVR #5s boiler and give my IHC 2-6-0 #7809s parts for a make over. AND my Mantua 2-8-2 Camelbacks tender trucks (the outside). As you can see i've got a lot on my plate.
I buy, repair, and collect
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Hyde.
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Posted - September 06 2012 : 05:14:59 AM
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Putting oil to a motor After it heats up, smokes, and doesn't go anymore, could have compounded the "injury" of said locomotive. Like using water to put out a grease fire, it gets terribly worse.
Flush with alcohol... don't light a match, repair or replace the motor. One year of locomotive experience says a lot... one decade of loco experience speaks volumes.
Also, there may have been published the term "Service"... which can mean two different things.
Service: Also known as Road Service... the operation of the locomotive in regular use.
Service: Also known as Clean-Lube-Break-in, Overhaul...
I hope this sheds light upon this non-argumentive, but a bit confusing inquiry.
John
Model railroader since 1976
I don't have a one track mind. It depends on the turn-out.
"I love your catenary!"
Is that a power-trip or just another pick-up line?
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Posted - September 06 2012 : 11:38:26 AM
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Flushing with rubbing alcohol may help. Better YET try soaking the whole motor in the alcohol. I'm not sure if there is a way to spray contact cleaner into the motor.
" Heck with counting 'em rivets, TRAINS ARE FOR FUN! Not called the Mad Scientist for nothing either!"
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Posted - September 06 2012 : 6:05:23 PM
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I have a few years of experience, I may be young but it's the one thing that I know more than anything about in my life. I appreciate all your guy's input being your experts! Thanks for the tips! Yardbird finally emailed me back a few days ago and he doesn't have any sagami motors for my 4-6-2  So if the repair attempts aren't successful i'll just have to wait a year or two to find a new motor. This engine isn't one of the least of my worries right now. As i've said, i've got a new layout to construct, new track to buy, new buildings to buy and assemble, and finish some overhauls i've got going on. My 4-6-2 #2486 can wait, I rarely used it anyways.
I buy, repair, and collect
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http://seyboldlocomotiveworks.weebly.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheDeputation?feature=watch
Hyde.
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Posted - September 06 2012 : 7:14:10 PM
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Hyde, I don't understand something. You posted this thread looking for help with this loco, which you obviously prize. A bunch of us have taken time to share our experience, but instead of trying any of the easy suggestions you've been given (far easier than a new paint job, btw), you spend your time arguing and give up. If it's as simple as many of us suspect, you could have had it running by now. At least you would find out if the motor is salvageable.
Oily brushes may be the issue, regardless of who did it. You have nothing to lose by trying. I learn new things all the time. Don't let your ego get in the way of becoming better at what you like to do.
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Posted - September 07 2012 : 01:17:02 AM
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Nelson, I do like this locomotive but i've got more pressing issues to focus on. I first have to get rubbing alcohol before anything but the locomotive is now in an athearn box with all of its parts and its in a bin with 4 other bins stacked on top. Now of course I can just move the bins and get to the engine however i've still got to rebuild my walthers back shop, finish the rebuild of an athearn diner, finish rebuilding my 2-6-0 #7809 and wait for the new ebay stuff i got to come so i can start working on those. So i've got more than enough to worry about. I askef for advice so that I know what to do later on when I get to this locomotive on my list. However, it seems like people thought I burnt up the motor, the throttle never exceeded 60%, because thats all it needed to get the smoke unit working, I never oiled the motor with labelle prior to its failure, and I have no idea where this locomotive came from and or how it was handled. Eventually I will get around to the tips i've recieved here and i will report back if they have worked or not. If you want to know all the work ahead of this 4-6-2 then visit my website and go to the Shop News section there you will see all the stuff i've got going on and thats no even all of it. Believe me i'm very happy I got the possible solutions while I will never no why the motor smoked up. I argued with Labelle being bad for the commutator and maybe your right but untill the day that a chain reaction happens and all my engines that have been applied with labelle 107 suddenly burn up and fail I will stand by Labelle. If some of my engines started burning up i'd officially believe it. I do have 100% trust in all of you. So I appologize for arguing with you older gents.
I buy, repair, and collect
http://scvr.weebly.com/
http://seyboldlocomotiveworks.weebly.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheDeputation?feature=watch
Hyde.
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