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 Posted - August 25 2011 : 2:13:04 PM
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I have actually five locomotives that are pretty old and they look like they where left in a opened shed. There is some rust on them they run but they smell like melted plastic while running and they wont run on lower speeds so I believe that they are damaged and also they light up. A couple don't even move but they light up so the light bulbs inside seem to be fine. But I can't seem to find any resembling marks that would indicate what part I have to replace to fix this train. I took the wheels out of one and I don't see any resembling marks there either. It's a Mostly blue and partly yellow train with metal railings and a large lead weight in the middle of it bolted down by two screws. It's light bulb is bolted to the top by one screw and has yellow numbers '5628' and yellow letters 'Santa Fe' on each side. The wheels seem to be the motor. It doesn't look like I can save the wheels and just replace the motor. So I wanted to ask if anyone here might be able to make anything of the above so that I can repair this train. Also I wanna add that the back right wheels run to the top bolt and connects with the front left wheels through a brass metal piece that holds the light bulb with a wire coming from the bottom of the bulb. It also looks like there is a magnet with rust and a bubled surface. It's pretty bad and even the inside has some rust specs and it's only plastic.
If anyone could help me with this I would be much obliged.
Also if anyone might know of a webpage that has affordable
repair parts please let me know.
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 2:19:53 PM
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The 5628 is LIKELY a Tycp GP-20 based on your description.
Pictures would help. Your's is probably using a Tyco Power Torque motor based on your description...
-Gareth
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 3:45:28 PM
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Sounds like they need good cleanin'. I say bench test her and see what happens.
" Heck with counting 'em rivets, TRAINS ARE FOR FUN! Not called the Mad Scientist for nothing either!"
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 3:55:03 PM
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It looks very similar to the one below. I'm not sure if my sister has a connection for her camera so I can post this picture I took but again the one below is almost identical accept this one is mostly blue and a bit yellow. After I took this thing apart I tested the motor with a tyco pak on the number 25 which should move a working locomotive at decent speed. Keep in mind I used a direct connection to the motor. It works at higher speeds but it stinks up the room with the smell of a burning engine. Once my sister gets home I'll see if she has anything to post this picture I took.
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 5:05:42 PM
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Wow the picture didn't show up
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 5:32:52 PM
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Well I can't post this picture because the image upload asp is broken.
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 5:35:48 PM
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The link below will show you the train I'm repairing.
http://www.tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9965
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 5:37:10 PM
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I actually have Five locomotives that don't work and I was
wondering if the engines can be fixed just by cleaning or if I will
have to buy a new engine. But if I could fix the one I am working
on now that would be awesome.
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 5:45:07 PM
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Anyone know where to get parts for a Tycp GP-20
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 5:51:54 PM
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well if you getting a error screen in the pic link just reload it a 1000 times till it takes  I does that alot it may take 3-4X before it finaly takes
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 6:13:29 PM
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LOL Ben. If the drive train and body is good, its repairable. Parts locos like those are common becuase 'em rivet counters don't like a Tyco. Thats how I get the good ones cheap and the clunkers fer parts cheap too! I always dig through the junk boxes at the shows.
" Heck with counting 'em rivets, TRAINS ARE FOR FUN! Not called the Mad Scientist for nothing either!"
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 7:26:11 PM
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Ok it finally worked. Here she is.
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 7:28:20 PM
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I need a new engine. I might just buy another GP-20
and see if I could use that one because I like the
body so much. So do they sell front engine?
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Edited by - Errigour on August 25 2011 7:37:17 PM
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 7:46:46 PM
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Still looks good to me! Just use some rubbing alcohol to remove the loose particals and dunk the motor in it and soak it and let it air dry some and use some compressed air and spray it out.Clean the wheels and she oughta be good. I have a Rivarossi steam engine and the motor's case had some surface rust, but, she ran fine. If ya decide to junk it, I want it fer those parts!
" Heck with counting 'em rivets, TRAINS ARE FOR FUN! Not called the Mad Scientist for nothing either!"
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 7:47:45 PM
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Also, what parts do you need?
" Heck with counting 'em rivets, TRAINS ARE FOR FUN! Not called the Mad Scientist for nothing either!"
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 8:42:18 PM
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I need the whole motor. I can't seem to take the motor apart from the front wheels so yea I need
the whole front section of the GP-20. I might need a light bulb one day and I also want a new set
of rear wheels just because the old ones look wrecked.
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Edited by - Errigour on August 25 2011 8:43:46 PM
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 8:44:26 PM
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So basically I want to keep the case.
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 8:47:48 PM
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The motor might actually be wrecked somewhere inside and I'm not
sure if alchahol could even fixe it
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 9:18:50 PM
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Just touch some leads to the wheels.The brass wheels get dirty fast, but, rubbin' alcohol will darn near clean all the crud off. Just try what I wrote and see what happens!I bought an AC Gilbert engine that sat fer 40 years packed away. I cleaned up the motor and pick up wheels and has ran ever since.
" Heck with counting 'em rivets, TRAINS ARE FOR FUN! Not called the Mad Scientist for nothing either!"
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 9:26:41 PM
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Know any tricks for cleaning brass tracks?
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 10:15:34 PM
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quote:Know any tricks for cleaning brass tracks?
Originally posted by Errigour - August 25 2011 : 9:26:41 PM
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'
Those green scrubby pads work pretty good, although they can catch on the tie ends and pull bits off itself. If you put them on a block of wood or something to partially wrap around, they do a good job of polishing track. NOT so good on switches, though. They'll catch on the sharp rail edges there.
I think you have a Tyco Mantua version, with the earlier MU-2 motor. I'll check my motor box to see if I have one like it.
Jerry in Virginia (shakin', quakin', and soon to be dripping )
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 10:40:17 PM
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Nope, I don't have an exact match, I do have some MU-2 motors, they might fit. I need to see the bottom side of your trucks, see if they match up there. Mine have metal plates over the axles, but some have plastic. which are yours?
Jerry
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 10:44:23 PM
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I soaked it and I don't have tracks set up yet to test it but I have three other locomotives to
test two are very small. Man one of my moms friend wanted my mom to sell her sons old
train collection but I don't want to just let this stuff go. I looked at prices for railroad tracks and
they aren't cheap and there are at least fifteen strait tracks and 25 curved tracks two switch
tracks one for the right and one for the left. and three power parts to connect the power
supply. Also she has at least twenty cars. But they aren't the coolest cars. Well to move on to
the point of why I told you this was just to let you know what I am dealing with. She wants me
to sell them but I don't want to just let this go because I want to collect this stuff myself. So I
will probably buy this stuff from her.
So I connect the motor by itself to a TYCO PAK 1 with the switch on 25 and nothing happens.
That right there leads me to believe the motor will not run properly. Then I tried at 50 and still
no juice. so I bump it up to 75 and the motor turns but not very fest. Lastly I bump it up to 100
and the motor runs ballistic and then after twenty five seconds of the connection, the motor
slows down a bit. This is a direct connection to the motor so you can only imagine what will
happen when I try running a lead wait on railroad tracks. Sadly you can't take the motor apart
because it's just one piece. And to top it off I'm not even sure if the TYCO PAK is really
sending out proper juice until my father sends me a tester from Dunedin but it seems the
motor is just dead.
I'm look at the motor and if I wanted to take it apart and fix individual pieces I would have to
find two cylinder clamp bolts or something like that to replace the ones I would have to cut off.
Not sure if tyco offers engine parts such as that either. Definitely disappointing.
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Edited by - Errigour on August 25 2011 10:47:10 PM
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 10:45:18 PM
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plastic
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 11:07:52 PM
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Errigour, the motor just sounds gummed up with dirt and old lube. You don't have to take the truck apart. Remove the motor brushes (they're the brass parts held in by springs) and soak them in alcohol for a while, then clean them thoroughly and let them dry. The commutator is the cylindrical series of plates that they make contact with, and that needs to be cleaned and degreased too. The slots between the commutator plates need to be cleaned of any gunk between them, which can be done with the tip of an X-acto knife, a pin, etc. If the grease on the axle gears is really hardened, the whole truck is going to need a longer soak than you gave it. Scrub the whole thing clean with a toothbrush after letting it sit.
You should go to Home Depot and get some CRC contact cleaner to help blast the gunk out.
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202262505/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
You'll also need plastic safe oil in a bottle with a needle applicator, like Labelle's to lubricate it afterward.
http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Labelle-107-1-2-fl-oz-Multi-Purpose-Oil-Medium-pla-p/lab-107.htm
If you have a local hobby shop, you can probably find it there. It should be sufficient to re-lubricate the bearings and gears, which can be accessed through the two holes in the bottom plate. Use a small amount, as you don't want it getting on the brushes and commutator.
These MU-2 trucks are very rugged, and it will probably be okay after a little maintenance. The rust doesn't look that bad, but remove any rust flakes you find.
P.S. Here's the motor breakdown:
/tyco/forum/uploaded/NickelPlate759/mantuamotormu2.jpg
The Tyco Depot
Edited by - NickelPlate759 on August 25 2011 11:20:12 PM
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 11:35:32 PM
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quote:Sadly you can't take the motor apart
because it's just one piece.
I'm look at the motor and if I wanted to take it apart and fix individual pieces I would have to
find two cylinder clamp bolts...
Not sure if tyco offers engine parts such as that either. Definitely disappointing.
Originally posted by Errigour - August 25 2011 : 10:44:23 PM
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No, Tyco doesn't exist anymore. There are no new spare parts, either, other than NOS on Ebay. Some Manuta parts are being repro'd by Model Power, but not these motors. You CAN cut those rivets out, and replace them with fine #2-56 screws. But do like the other guy suggested, some cleaner, get some fine scribe tools to clean out any gunk between the commutator pads on the armature (motor), and put it back together. Later motors had screws and nuts holding them together. You can take them apart, just need the proper fine gauge screws to reassemble it again. Also, these motors are susceptible to magnet failure if you take them apart, they're not permanent magnets, they're forced to hold a charge, if you take the plates apart , it may loose it's strength, and then it really WILL be useless. Not sure if yours is one of the non-permanent magnetic types or not, but I suspect it is. But they can be diassembled if you're careful, keep the plates together on the magnet and put a bridge on them IF you remove the armature for any reason. I'd just clean it and lube it and try it that way first. They're tough old motors, not powerful, but could take some abuse and still run if you clean them and lube them properly. Just give it a chance.
Jerry
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 11:43:47 PM
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whered you find that picture?
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 11:45:55 PM
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Thank you guys very much.
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 11:48:00 PM
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Here's another broken train and I can't even get the bottom of this one off.
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 11:48:32 PM
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It's a shame isn't it.
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 11:49:15 PM
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thats alright cause I found four GP-20 locomotives for sale under
thirty bucks.
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 11:49:27 PM
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It's from HOSeeker, which is an invaluable collection of manuals for HO trains.
http://www.hoseeker.org/
Like Jerry said, the rivets in these trucks can be drilled out and replaced with screws, but so far I haven't needed to with the few I've serviced.
The Tyco Depot
Edited by - NickelPlate759 on August 25 2011 11:50:06 PM
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 11:54:30 PM
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What do you mean you haven't needed to? Isn't it the only way to open the engine or do you mean you've never seen a motor that's this bad.
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 11:58:53 PM
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I meant that I haven't had a problem cleaning them while they are still assembled, and no, I haven't come across a burned out motor yet. It's possible; I just haven't seen it.
The Norfolk Southern is an Athearn GP38-2. Much better performers than the Tyco diesels, and much easier to service. Everything snaps apart.
http://www.hoseeker.org/assemblyexplosionAthearn/Assembly%20Explosion%20Athearn%20GP38-2.jpg
The Tyco Depot
Edited by - NickelPlate759 on August 25 2011 11:59:59 PM
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Posted - August 26 2011 : 12:07:16 AM
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Hey any of you guys know of any train merchant material for a
small business?
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Posted - August 26 2011 : 12:32:04 AM
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These two also are broken
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Posted - August 26 2011 : 12:52:03 AM
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wow the case of the Norfolk Southern just popped off, I wanna
thank you again for the images you posted.
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Posted - August 26 2011 : 01:42:07 AM
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gremlin could you explain the magnet theory a bit more so I know how to prevent burning out this magnet. I'm looking at a norfolk southern train. I don't want to make it useless.
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Posted - August 26 2011 : 10:45:14 AM
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quote:gremlin could you explain the magnet theory a bit more so I know how to prevent burning out this magnet. I'm looking at a norfolk southern train. I don't want to make it useless.
Originally posted by Errigour - August 26 2011 : 01:42:07 AM
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Well, the theory is that some motors are made with a material which will hold a "magnetic charge", like a battery - but if you remove the components which complete the field, the magnetic material will lose some of it's charge, and not work correctly. Here's a link which explains some of, down at the RSC-2 motor .
http://www.irwinsjournal.com/a1g/a1glocos/mtmotors.html
Basically, you would need a re-magnetizier, and that type of equipment is EXPENSIVE, although you can probably build one. Anyway, many motors of the 50's and '60's are open-frame, and may have this type of magnet instead of a permanent magnet. So you have to be careful which ones you can disassemble, and which ones need to have something, a piece of metal, across the ends in order to remove the armature. Generally you can clean open-frame motors without taking them apart, but if the end bushings are shot, you have no choice.
People have said the PT motor you can't take apart, but that's not true. Those are more or less permanent magnets, I've got similar ones for use in slot cars, been in the toolcase for years, and they're still good and have maintained magnetic continuity. Really you have to research your motor and model, and see if you can disassemble it totally without harm. I'd just assume any open frame is susceptible to demagnetizing, and refrain from full disassembly short of needing to replace the armature bushings.
When they built the original motors, they would magnetize the metal with a special machine on the assembly line, and they were doing thousands. Was worth the expensive to save on using permanent magnets. I've been tempted to use some of the new little powerful permanent magnets, take apart a MU-2 motor, and replace the square crude magnetic block with some of these super-magnets, and see how it performs. Never done it yet, but found a stack of 5 round watch-battery sized mags at a hardware store for $5, so I got those around, will try it one day. :)
Anyway, hope this helps somewhat in explaining how these older units work, you need to be cautious when taking them apart. Again, unless absolutely necessary to replace the armature, just clean it as is, and hope for the best.
Jerry
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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Posted - August 26 2011 : 1:33:45 PM
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So if motor is what you where telling me then when I take it apart
the magnet wont be a magnet anymore right. Or is it possible it
will still magnetize little and not work in the engine.
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Posted - August 27 2011 : 09:44:27 AM
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quote:Here's another broken train and I can't even get the bottom of this one off.
Originally posted by Errigour - August 25 2011 : 11:48:00 PM
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It looks like a Athearn GP35 or GP38. It should be a easy fix.
frank
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on August 27 2011 09:46:38 AM
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Posted - August 27 2011 : 1:17:14 PM
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Well I just figured out how to open it and it seems that it uses the bottem of itself to make the
remaining connection that it needs to run because the wheels don't make the complete connection.
That bottom the the train could be bad for all I know but the engine inside works great with a
direct connection.
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Posted - August 27 2011 : 1:35:30 PM
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It's referred to as a chassis ground. Like cars and motorcycles, basically your current goes out on a positive wire and then is grounded to the chassis to complete the circut...
-Gareth
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-Aristotle
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Posted - August 27 2011 : 3:26:29 PM
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quote:Well I just figured out how to open it and it seems that it uses the bottem of itself to make the
remaining connection that it needs to run because the wheels don't make the complete connection.
That bottom the the train could be bad for all I know but the engine inside works great with a
direct connection.
Originally posted by Errigour - August 27 2011 : 1:17:14 PM
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One of the FIRST ways to troubleshoot an electric motor is hook up the power DIRECTLY to the armature brush contacts. You eliminate EVERYTHING in between that could be wrong. So if you have tried power right to the motor directly,and it works fine, then you have continuity issues between there and the wheels. It could be the little brush contacts that touch the wheels, or the wheels are full of crude, and need polishing to remove varnish, dirt, etc. Or the wiring is bad, or bad solder connections.
Yes, usually the motor is part of the contact system, one side is usually directly connected to one side of the axle/wheel, and the other side of the axle is insulated and has a contact strip that runs a wire up to the motor. Somewhere there is your problem, if your motor runs strong directly.
Now,as far as the magnetic field connection, it goes from the magnet through both metal plates, thru the brushes, onto the armature windings. It completes the magnetic field. It WON'T drain the magnet, because it needs the complete electrical path to hold the magnetic field. But removing the armature will open the field up, unless you put a contact plate across the open ends of the two metal plates of the motor to hold the field intact. It will run faster, but have less torque, and burn up the windings, if it does lose some of it's magnetic properties. Not sure of the theory of why that happens.
anyway, still checking for MU-2 motors. Most of mine are earlier types with metal bottoms. Not sure they're GP-20 compatible.
Jerry
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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Posted - August 28 2011 : 5:52:21 PM
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Thanks for looking. Don't over burdin yourself and again thank you.
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Posted - September 22 2011 : 1:11:24 PM
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Those old Mantua motors can take a licking. I bought a GP-20 a few weeks back which I planned to use for parts. It had all kinds of junk all over and someone did a very poor job of weathering it. It was in far worse condition than the one you show in the photos. Being the fixer that I am and going in with zero expectations, I cleaned the wheels, lubed up the loco and put it on the test track. I saw the light go on and after a short shove, the little engine took of, gaining speed after a quick warm up. The thing literally was a rusted up old heep full of actual mud and junk.The thing actually ran!!! This weekend i plan to get started on a restoration project and have ordered some handails, and decals (Southern Pac of Course)for this loco. should be a fun little project.
If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right.
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Posted - August 07 2012 : 8:08:23 PM
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quote:
One of the FIRST ways to troubleshoot an electric motor is hook up the power DIRECTLY to the armature brush contacts. ...
Jerry
Originally posted by AMC_Gremlin_GTÂ -Â August 27 2011Â :Â 3:26:29 PM
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I know this is an old thread, but I'm hoping someone out there will see this and give us a hand.
My son and I have been researching on the TYCO colletor's forum about repairing engines. The above advice is a great idea for us. We've done our homework and I know where the contacts are and we've cleaned the motor. I was wondering how to connect the power directly. I'm assuming if I do it wrong, I'll fry the motor. Or maybe not. I'm new to trains, so would greatly appreciate any help you can give.
TrainMom
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Posted - August 07 2012 : 8:46:49 PM
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Hi TrainMom,
Knowing which locomotive you have may allow us to be more specific but most often connecting a wire from the power pack to the metal frame of the power truck and the other power pack wire to the wire that leads to the pick up truck (or tender if it is a steam locomotive) will make the motor run.
Some locomotives have 2 power wires coming from the powerpick up truck. Touching the power pack wires where those whires connect to the motor truck will make it run.
Ray
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Posted - August 08 2012 : 11:27:28 AM
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quote:Hi TrainMom,
Knowing which locomotive you have may allow us to be more specific but most often connecting a wire from the power pack to the metal frame of the power truck and the other power pack wire to the wire that leads to the pick up truck (or tender if it is a steam locomotive) will make the motor run.
Some locomotives have 2 power wires coming from the powerpick up truck. Touching the power pack wires where those whires connect to the motor truck will make it run.
Originally posted by Ray Marinaccio - August 07 2012 : 8:46:49 PM
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Thanks for responding! The wires and connections were a wreck. Everything came out in pieces, so I have no idea what was connected where. We chose this one to start with, because I knew we couldn't make it any worse 
I'd like to connect power directly to the motor and see if it works. If it does, THEN we can learn how to wire everything up. Here's a few pics of the cleaned motor.
 
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Posted - August 08 2012 : 12:05:24 PM
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quote:Hi TrainMom,
Knowing which locomotive you have may allow us to be more specific but most often connecting a wire from the power pack to the metal frame of the power truck and the other power pack wire to the wire that leads to the pick up truck (or tender if it is a steam locomotive) will make the motor run.
Some locomotives have 2 power wires coming from the powerpick up truck. Touching the power pack wires where those whires connect to the motor truck will make it run.
Originally posted by Ray Marinaccio - August 07 2012 : 8:46:49 PM
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Hi Ray,
I just "bit the bullet" and connected that power supply. The motor works! Yahoo! Thanks to you and all the guys that gave me advice! We are on the road to repairing our engine. Now my son and I just need to puzzle out how to connect everything. It will be a fun puzzle for us to work on. I don't suppose you know of any wiring guides? Amtrak F-9 diesel.
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Posted - August 08 2012 : 12:09:05 PM
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Hi,
A picture is worth a thousand words.
I you touch the wires from the power pack to the 2 metal rods that go under the magnet, the motor will run (one wire on each rod) It does not matter which wire that you touch to which rod, reversing the wires will reverse the direction that the motor rotates.
If I remember correctly, the wires that went to the motor wire soldered to the brushes of that type motor.
One wire went to the front truck and the other to a metal wiper that collected power from the axles of the motor truck. I'll have to look through my files and see if I have a photo of one with the wires connected to the motor.
The guys posting in the Tyco F-9 Amtrak thread are the some of the most experienced people when it comes to working on Tyco locomotives.
Ray
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