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 Posted - August 18 2011 : 8:36:12 PM
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I just picked up a used Rivarossi Rio Grande K-M this weekend, and gave the trucks a good cleaning, so it runs as good as can be expected now. The only problem is, after about five minutes, I can feel the motor's heat through the shell, accompanied by a room full of hot oil smell. 
The oil smell tells me someone over-lubed it, which means my next step is to try and take the motor apart and give it a thorough cleaning. However, if that doesn't fix the overheating, what might be the problem? It runs fine otherwise. 
--Rio Grande--Thru the Rockies
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Posted - August 18 2011 : 9:20:29 PM
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Normally heat means resistance.
I assume the armature spins on nylon bushings? Friction, one problem, thats mechanical resistance.
Arcing, or the like is Electrical resistance.
Clean it first as you said. Always do the obvious first, it helps you to isolate problems. It's new to you so you can't do the 1st troubleshooting question; "What's changed?" Try what should it do. Now what is it doing. Well you;ve done that so back to the top....
I'm a mechanical guy not electrical guy, ask Nickleplate for help....
-Gareth
"A is A"
-Aristotle
Law of Identification
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Posted - August 18 2011 : 9:40:44 PM
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Hello, fellow KM owner.  I have one as well, but haven't run it at all since I bought it used and abused at the last show. You have a good diagnosis going, if it smells like hot oil, it's either 1) over-lubed, or 2) the armature windings are burnt, and is getting hot. Take it apart, clean it with rubbing alcohol to remove ALL oils from windings, etc. Check the windings visually, they should be colored with a coating to protect the windings, usually a reddish or greenish shellac coating. if you see black anywhere, it's burning up, and needs replacing. That's your two checks, too much oil, and see if the windings are burnt. Hope it's jus too much oil from an over-zealous PO.
Jerry
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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Posted - August 18 2011 : 10:29:25 PM
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Don't disassemble it if it's the older ball bearing motor! They are square and have 1mm ball bearings that come out once the halves are separated, so unless you're comfortable with the idea of placing them back into the bearing cups one at a time, just blast it out with contact cleaner. Give the brushes a soak in 90% alcohol or any other solvent, and clean the brush dust from the commutator gaps... that's likely where you're heat is coming from. The dust packs in between the plates and starts to short. I've found that to be the problem in many old motors; far more common than burnt windings.
If it's a round motor it's safe to disassemble, but you can still do a good cleaning job with it intact.
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - August 19 2011 : 7:15:22 PM
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| I saw this issue in RC car motors when I used to race them. The is a motor cleaner that you can get at most RC shops. You spray it in the can and on the comm. Then run the motor out side of the model. The dirt should come out with the cleaner. There is a slight amount of lube in the cleaner and it conducts electricity. I used it on an AMH C liner and it brought that back to life.
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Posted - August 19 2011 : 10:56:47 PM
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Just wanted to add that the overheating could also be due to really hardened grease in the gearing, or foreign objects or substances in the motor itself. I just serviced one of Rivarossi's large can motors for their UP steamers that didn't run that I got in a junk parts lot. When I got it apart, I found some kind of thick waxy substance inside the motor housing. I don't know how it got there, but it gummed it up so much that it overheated and the windings came loose where they're soldered to the commutator. It actually melted the solder joints. Even after all that, once I reattached them and did a good tuneup, it runs as good as new.
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Edited by - NickelPlate759 on August 19 2011 10:58:45 PM
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Posted - August 19 2011 : 11:57:13 PM
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Clean out the slots in the armature.
If there is a weight in the back take it out to see if it runs better.
Edited by - AF Kid on August 19 2011 11:57:47 PM
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Posted - August 20 2011 : 12:35:54 AM
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Thanks for the info, guys. I'll definitely watch out if its the older ball-bearing motor. I saw a post on another forum where someone actually took one of those apart.  I'm afraid the ball bearings would end up wherever all the Kadee coupler springs go. 
I'll probably be taking it all the way apart tomorrow to figure out what the problem is. I already cleaned the gears inside the powered truck, so there's no resistance there. I'll have to pick up some contact cleaner and 90% alcohol, as I have a couple of other engines that could use it. I'll let you all know what I find out.
--Rio Grande--Thru the Rockies
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Posted - August 21 2011 : 12:37:46 AM
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Archi,
I take them apart in a white plastic tray to make it easier to see the bearings, and put them in a small baggie or container while I work on the motor. You can get them back in by putting Vaseline in the bearing cups, and then use a toothpick to pick up one at a time and set them in place. The cup on the shaft end takes about 10 balls, and the brush end about 5. I've done it a number of times and it's easier than you think, but I also bought a bag of spare bearings through Amazon in case I lose any.
Still, if you don't have to take it apart, don't bother. It sounds like yours was just over-oiled.
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - August 22 2011 : 10:35:13 PM
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Hey Nelson,
Have you ever replaced the original motor? If so, what did you replace it with? I want to repower mine. I managed to remove the original motor and the base plate. Now I have a huge opening where the drive shaft goes down. Need to find a way to fill that space with tubing to support the motor.
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Posted - August 23 2011 : 12:46:36 AM
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quote:Hey Nelson,
Have you ever replaced the original motor? If so, what did you replace it with? I want to repower mine. I managed to remove the original motor and the base plate. Now I have a huge opening where the drive shaft goes down. Need to find a way to fill that space with tubing to support the motor.
Originally posted by Hypoponera - August 22 2011 : 10:35:13 PM
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I've never done it because mine run very well, but I would use a CD ROM motor with a long enough shaft. Those are a little hard to come by, but spindle motors in CD drives do have very long shafts and would work as long as they clear the top of the shell. I think it would be wise to keep the original extension to maintain gear mesh and lock it into the truck. You could mount the motor to the base plate, or remove the extension section and cement that to the front of the new motor. I've found very hard to get them off the motor intact, though. I suppose it could also be epoxied in place without the extension, but you would have to be careful about the mesh.
Be aware that depending on the motor, it could end up faster than the original setup. I don't think NWSL made a reduction kit for these.
I used a spindle motor with a very long shaft and NWSL gear kit to repower my IHB 0-8-0 that had the vertically mounted motor in the boiler. It's a very smooth, slow runner now.
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Posted - August 23 2011 : 10:57:55 AM
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Ah, mine did not run so well. So I went to disassemble the motor for a more complete cleaning and, well... after the first few ball bearings flew away, I knew it was "re-power time".
I have several motors that will give good shell clearence with the base plate removed. Removing the base plate also shortens the shaft length needed. But then you have potential mesh issues to deal with. Not to mention very little area to actually mount the new motor. I will see if the extension can be safely removed and mounted to the new motor. That would be the best fix. Hope I don't bugger it up like I did with the ball bearings! Otherwise, I have a sweet rolling SP dummy.
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Posted - August 23 2011 : 5:55:59 PM
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If you want to restore the original motor:
http://www.amazon.com/Diameter-Chrome-Steel-Bearing-Balls/dp/B004YL45QQ/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1314135641&sr=8-9
That's a much better deal than I got, btw. When I bought them they were only 100 for almost $10.
I tried judging what the height of an FK-130, which is a pretty short motor, would be if it were mounted atop the truck collar, and it looks like it won't clear the roof. A spindle motor like this will fit with the bottom plate still attached.
/tyco/forum/uploaded/NickelPlate759/DSCF0306800x600.jpg
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Edited by - NickelPlate759 on August 23 2011 5:56:49 PM
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Posted - August 23 2011 : 6:17:05 PM
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Yeah, I found that none of the motors I have available will fit with the base plate in place. I have not had a chance to try to remove the extension yet.
Where did you get the spindle motor? I could use another for exactly what you show there. I have a U25C in line for a new motor as well. But at least it is less "complex" of a job.
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Posted - August 23 2011 : 6:50:47 PM
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It came from a CD player or a shelf stereo system. The shaft is the spindle that the CD spins on.
I ended up swapping it for a tray motor, ultimately. Spindle motors tend to be high RPM and weak on low end torque, but work well with enough gear reduction.
Do any of your motors have a bearing that's close to the I.D. of the collar? That would help center it. If you have a lathe, you could turn an adapter.
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - August 24 2011 : 10:55:21 AM
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Hmm. So I need to find a dead CD player? Guess it is time to go check out the thrift shops for stereo equipment. Are the motors you use 12 volt? Most of those motors I've seen run 5-9 volts. How would you set them up to run at 12 volts?
I have not checked the I.D. of the collar. Most of the motors I have are 2mm shaft diameter. I was thinking of using brass tube to connect the motor shaft to an Atlas worm shaft. I could then place a larger diameter tube around the first to act as a bearing sleeve. Assuming there is enough room for it to all fit inside the collar.
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Posted - August 24 2011 : 1:48:07 PM
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This is where a lathe would come in really handy (I don't have one either), because you could turn an adapter or extension to glue to the motor. Tubing could work, but I'm sure that the collar I.D. is a metric dimension. Are you talking about a shaft extension as well? Are the shafts on all of the motors you have too short?
Yeah, a dead CD player is the best bet. Some have an AC spindle motor that's useless, but most have these little DC ones. Like the tray motors, they're rated at 5.9v, but I haven't found one that didn't run comfortably at 12v. I found this surplus place with CD drive motors, but they have a $10 minimum so you'd have order a number of them.
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17687
One is a head positioner, the other a spindle motor. It doesn't look like either has an especially long shaft.
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Posted - August 24 2011 : 8:31:01 PM
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Here's my KM, a repainted Rio Grande unit. ThinkI paid $25 for it at the Timonium, MD show in the spring. Runs smooth and silent, really impressed with it!
Oh, yeah, here's the EZ Track as well ( actually Life Like Power Lok ), finally done enough for a full circle, 10 pieces. I guess the straight pieces will be Round 2. Still have paint left, AND I found a shoebox full of the Power Lok track, I guess I'd forgotten about it, until I cleaned up last week while on "home vacation", and found more curves and straights. I really like the way it turned out. Probably LESS time consuming than doing actual roadbed ballasting in HO, but still took a couple days. I'm happy with it.
Jerry
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 12:45:03 AM
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Someone's interested in that blue & silver mouse. 
They are underpowered, but the drive is very quiet. Jerry, that unit has gotten me thinking... I wonder how a KM would look in D&H's blue warbonnet scheme. That would be impressive. The track looks very good. You should try that paint on standard cork or foam roadbed.
Btw, here's a thread by a guy who put an Atlas/Kato chassis under his KM.
http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/156743.aspx?PageIndex=1
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 08:32:52 AM
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| guys if you need motors I can get them EXCEPT the double shaft motors They are hard to get
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 12:14:27 PM
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Hey Nelson,
First, thanks for the link to the motor vendor. Looks like they have a better selection at the moment then All-Electronics. Shouldn't be hard to spend $10 there.
Second, thanks for the link to that MR site. That rebuild/repower looks like a far better idea then simply shoe-horning in a new motor. I may just have to give more thought to that idea.
Thanks again!!
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 9:42:20 PM
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No problem, Hypo. Post photos of your project, whichever method you decide on. I have an Atlas U30C sitting around that I don't need, and I'm somewhat tempted. Part of me wants to keep the KM original, though. Hmmm...
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Posted - August 25 2011 : 11:24:08 PM
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I don't have such reservations. My KM has a cracked chassis so no need to keep it original. Guess my mangaling the original motor just gave that much more reason not to worry about originality.
Don't expect photos any time soon though. It will be a while before I can pick up an Atlas chassis.
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