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 Posted - July 27 2010 : 9:59:48 PM
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Not sure which forum to toss this one out.
Hope you can help.
I've about had it with my "long" engine and flat car. I'm ready to donate them to the local H O club or trade in for something smaller. They might be cool looking but are not practical
I am in the process of constructing a layout. Until i do i have made a test loop all curves are 22 inch R
When pulling cars , any car , they will derail when going around a curve. When pulling the long flat car with others attached it will also derail them.
The couplers on the engine and flat car are horn hook type.
Two problems as i see it.
1. The horn hooks are too stiff: I E the whisker is too thick. It flips off other cars regardless of how heavy they are. I cut off one whisker and it made the coupler inoperable
2. The arc of swing is too small , the coupler is restricted in the holder which also flips off cars
Converting to knuckle with a softer whisker might take care of #1 but won't solve the limited arc.
I have no problems hauling other cars with other engines.
Trying to design a layout with radius restrictions along with width restrictions is not worth it just to run a "long" engine and car
any ideas
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Posted - July 27 2010 : 10:09:12 PM
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I don't know about that big flat car, but with the locomotive you shouldn't be having that kind of trouble on 22 radius. Try the knuckle couplers, and look closer to see if it's really the coupler causing the problem or something about the wheels. I hope someone else has some more specific advice. It's hard to say what's wrong without seeing it.
On the other hand, if you're determined to get rid of that loco I'd be happy to give it a home. 
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Posted - July 27 2010 : 10:10:52 PM
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quote:Not sure which forum to toss this one out.
Hope you can help.
I've about had it with my "long" engine and flat car.
Trying to design a layout with radius restrictions along with width restrictions is not worth it just to run a "long" engine and car
any ideas
Originally posted by derfberger - July 27 2010 : 9:59:48 PM
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Like I said before, you can't fit a size 10 foot in a size 8 shoe. You have few options - put away the "long hauler" and flat for another time and place to operate, sell it off to get money for something smaller, or just operate it on a club layout somewhere with larger radius. You can't really "fix" this problem with what you have now, so why hassle with it? Make it a static display on a siding, trade it, or put it away. You're really looking for an answer you won't find except for a larger layout you can't have right now, so there's really no "fix" for that. Nothing wrong with making it a static display for now.
Jerry
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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Posted - July 27 2010 : 10:46:57 PM
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There is nothing wrong with your loco. B77 gave you some good advice. Observe, Watch, look, see what is happening. 22 Radis is fine for what you got. And the uncoupler pins. shortin them. Or remove them. I choose the latter. I run and drop off complete trains. I see on poblum with that. Real trains were manualy uncoupled.
frank
toptrain
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Posted - July 27 2010 : 11:03:26 PM
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if the two you have pictured are body mounted couplers, & you are coupling them to talgo trucks (truck mounted couplers) it will cause derailments. also, long cars make more angle & could be puting a bind on a short car behind them forcing it off the track. i really don't see why you would have trouble using 22 radious track though. watch & learn.
jerry
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Posted - July 27 2010 : 11:54:16 PM
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After thinking about this more, I think you should put the long flat car aside, then try the loco with a shorter car that has a body mounted coupler. That might fix it. Then you could "try out" cars that work behind it. I don't have that exact loco, but I have locos that size running on my 18R track with no problem.
The car may just be "one of those" that never quite work right. We all have a few. Set it aside and don't get frustrated over it. The car may be more trouble than it's worth at this time, but that locomotive ought to be a real powerhouse and the star of your layout.
Another thing to watch on the loco is the wheels. Run it by itself to see if it stays on track. Athearn locos have wheels that can be spread out wider or squeezed in more narrow. It they've gotten adjusted too far one way it can cause problems. They make a gauge to set them correctly, but trial and error usually fixes it for me. I try to make them just a little narrow to the track width.
And if all else fails, like I said before...I've got a 6 year old girl who loves Chessie and CSX, so I'd certainly be willing to give it a home.
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steve
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Posted - July 27 2010 : 11:57:20 PM
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| did you try adding weight to the cars?
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Posted - July 28 2010 : 12:00:29 AM
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The problem maybe quite simple actually. Your equipment is too large for the track radii. Modern cars and locos with body mounted couplers need larger radii curves then older equipment with talgo-type set-ups. That engine alone will have no trouble roaring around a 22" radius curve, possibly even an 18". However, run the loco slowly through the curve and you will see how far outside the track the couplers are projecting. Switching to knuckle couplers probably won't help much. The long flat car is in the same boat.
If you want to run them on your new layout, you need wider curves. There really is no other way unless you just run the loco "light". Another possibility is to replace your couplers with knuckle coupler, but with an extra long shank. The extra shank length with put more space between the equipment, but may also provide just enough swing arc to work.
Hopefully the shank idea will work for you. I have some of those big GEs from Bachmann and Athearn and they run great. Hope you can keep yours running too!
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Posted - July 28 2010 : 01:46:50 AM
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quote:| Modern cars and locos with body mounted couplers need larger radii curves then older equipment with talgo-type set-ups. That engine alone will have no trouble roaring around a 22" radius curve, possibly even an 18". However, run the loco slowly through the curve and you will see how far outside the track the couplers are projecting. Originally posted by Hypoponera - July 28 2010 : 12:00:29 AM
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I've got to disagree. 22" radius should work for that loco. I think something else besides track radius is the problem. Athearns, in my experience, tend to need some work on the couplers and the wheels. The coupler is mounted to the back end of the loco, not the trucks, so the curve isn't the problem.
Edited by - burlington77 on July 28 2010 01:51:08 AM
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Posted - July 28 2010 : 08:57:12 AM
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Is it just me, or do the couplers on the engine and the flat car seem to not be at the same height? Hard to tell.
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Posted - July 28 2010 : 10:04:38 AM
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thanks all
this isn't a 10- ft into a 8 foot, all the curves on my test track are 22, i checked with a template and like many have said this will run on a 22'. I'm designing my layout with a min curve of 20" which is a pity as i have tons of 18" pieces
It runs fine alone, even runs fine on an 18 in test circle i made. the problem is the swing arc coupled with the stiff coupler. Going from a straight into a curve is where it happens. A transition would help.
have just finished making test runs. The flat car did O K with another engine but
i'm going to add more weight to the flat car. It does look a bit out of scale next to all my other rolling stock
Except for the flat car everything else is TYCO and there fore no body mounted couplers to try out
I like the idea of a longer shank which will increase the swing arc. I have a Bachman cabose that has long horn hooks. Now to find them
also Magna-Matic has a metal whisker couple. The whisker is so fine it puts virtually no torque on the attached car.
I also might be able to grind a bit off the sides of the draft gear box to increas swing arc
thanks again everyone
and Mr Burlington 77. If i can't lick this i'll be back for a trade
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Posted - July 28 2010 : 7:37:38 PM
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quote:| Going from a straight into a curve is where it happens. |
This is a bit of a long shot, but you don't have any curves that are broken up in the middle by a short straight piece do you?
On my old layout the curves on one of the ovals were made up of three 18" curved sections, followed by a standard length straight piece, followed by three more 18" curved sections. I remember my longer cars didn't like that
To me though it just sounds like the issue (already mentioned in this thread) is trying to use talgo couplers with body-mounted couplers.
cheez
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Posted - July 28 2010 : 9:33:30 PM
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quote:quote:| Going from a straight into a curve is where it happens. |
no but i was thinking of doing so. Guy at the Hobby Shop said that was one way to get a 22' R inside another 22". I'll keep in mind
cheez
Originally posted by DaCheez - July 28 2010 : 7:37:38 PM
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Posted - July 28 2010 : 9:34:54 PM
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quote:Is it just me, or do the couplers on the engine and the flat car seem to not be at the same height? Hard to tell.
they're not which is another problem requiring tweeking on all the cars
Originally posted by 59Chevy - July 28 2010 : 08:57:12 AM
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Posted - July 28 2010 : 9:59:15 PM
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quote:
and Mr Burlington 77. If i can't lick this i'll be back for a trade
Originally posted by derfberger - July 28 2010 : 10:04:38 AM
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No need to be formal. I get called Mister enough at work. Keep at it and you'll figure it out. I run a mix of body mount and talgo couplers every day and it works. Sometimes you just get a car or loco that doesn't want to cooperate.
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Posted - July 29 2010 : 2:58:54 PM
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I like the AHM, Santa Fe RS-3 in Derfs picture....
Walt
Luck, usually comes dressed in work clothes...
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Posted - July 29 2010 : 7:39:35 PM
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quote:I like the AHM, Santa Fe RS-3 in Derfs picture....
Originally posted by walt - July 29 2010 : 2:58:54 PM
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Me too. Derf, is that an AHM or a Model Power? I couldn't quite tell from the pic. The local twice-a-year flea market has a dealer that brings that loco and a few Bachmanns every time. Every time the price tag is the same: $40 each. Needless to say, nobody's bought them, and I've been watching them sit there for at least five years.
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Posted - July 30 2010 : 5:00:21 PM
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Sorry to take so long to dig this up. I finally found a review of the Athearn AC4400CW and the Dash 9-44CW.
AC4400CW:
"Although it will go around 18" curves, the chassis-mounted couplers may cause derailments because of the swing on curves. The AC will operate (and look) much better on 22" and broader curves."
Dash 9-44CW is listed as having a 22" minimum radius.
Why the difference? Couldn't tell you. I have a couple of each and can say that both models will run just fine on 18" curves without ANY cars. They will do fine on 22" curves with most 40-50' cars, but will derail any car over 50' long even on the 22" radius curves. All my cars have body mounted couplers. My layout doesn't have any curves larger then 22", so my big modern GEs are limited to pulling small and "out-of-time-period" cars.
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Posted - July 30 2010 : 10:07:23 PM
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| That's some great info. Looks like it's more difficult than I thought. I wonder if a second locomotive would do any better behind it? For example, if you double headed it with something common like a GP unit behind it, then added cars? Just a thought.
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Posted - July 30 2010 : 11:02:58 PM
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long cars eh? TRY the Auto-Train under the Tyco
too long ain't it? Would be difficult around your curves derfberger  I do have matching passenger cars of this & Alaska RR cars
Edited by - microbusss on July 30 2010 11:08:02 PM
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Posted - July 30 2010 : 11:04:06 PM
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quote:I like the AHM, Santa Fe RS-3 in Derfs picture....
Originally posted by walt - July 29 2010 : 2:58:54 PM
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Here's the pics Not sure which one you were referring to, you guys are the experts. The one on the right is a bit beat up. Missing a few rails and a front coupler the latter will be tricky to replace. Both run great.
""Athearn AC4400CW and the Dash 9-44CW.''' " So is the CSX that i own one of these?
just to add to the subject here is a quote from Robert Scjleicher "The H O Model Railroading 3rd edition Handbook"
"if you insist on running diesel locos with six wheel trucks and a steam loco larger than 2-8-0 you will need more than a 5x9 foot lay out space. These locos will operate through number 4 size turnouts and 24 in radius curves -----requiring a 5x9 ft layout. A better solution is to select a slightly smaller loco.
In nearly every instance there is a matching four wheel diesel for every full size 6 wheeler." He lists Proto 2000 SD&, Proto 2000 E8A, Kato General Electric Dash 9-44C and a Rivararossi 2-8-2 as not making an 18 in R
also helpful some do's and don'ts for track layouts:
--place one 9 in straight between an S-bend
--Place a larger radius transistion curve at the beginning and end of every curve I E Place a 22 in radius track at the beginning and end of ever 18 inch radius curve for transition( this i will do)
-don't join tight curves (18 or 15) directly to straight track except in yards or industrial areas
and last but not least.
John Allen The "father" of model railroading's Gore and Dapedids layout went from 14 to 20 R and he did O k so there is hope for me
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Posted - July 30 2010 : 11:26:26 PM
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I had the above pictured RS-3 back in the 70's on my layout. Mine was the AHM which I believe the one pictured is, judging by the number on the side. I will get one of these again soon.
Walt
Luck, usually comes dressed in work clothes...
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Posted - July 30 2010 : 11:34:54 PM
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quote:
""Athearn AC4400CW and the Dash 9-44CW.''' " So is the CSX that i own one of these?
Originally posted by derfberger - July 30 2010 : 11:04:06 PM
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Yes, it's one of those. I think its the Dash 9, but I'm not 100% sure. They're similar.
I just realized that the big loco I run has talgo couplers. So you can throw my advice out the window! Sorry. 
The locomotive we were talking about is the blue and yellow one. It should say something on the bottom, either AHM, Yugoslavia, Mehano, or something else. It might just have a mark with three triangles. Either way, I like that one.
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Posted - July 31 2010 : 08:48:51 AM
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quote:quote:
""Athearn AC4400CW and the Dash 9-44CW.''' " So is the CSX that i own one of these?
Originally posted by derfberger - July 30 2010 : 11:04:06 PM
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Yes, it's one of those. I think its the Dash 9, but I'm not 100% sure. They're similar.
I just realized that the big loco I run has talgo couplers. So you can throw my advice out the window! Sorry.
The locomotive we were talking about is the blue and yellow one. It should say something on the bottom, either AHM, Yugoslavia, Mehano, or something else. It might just have a mark with three triangles. Either way, I like that one.
Originally posted by burlington77Â -Â July 30 2010Â :Â 11:34:54 PM
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It's blue, yellow and gray With letters C S X and numbers 9003 , Under the 9003 is CW44-B.
The directions in the box it came in said it' a G E C44-9W diesel locomotive made by Athearn.
no mark of any kind on the bottom
So with this info is it or isn't it designed for 18 inch
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Posted - July 31 2010 : 11:20:23 AM
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I think at this point, the best way to answer is that it MIGHT work on 18 radius with certain cars, but it's intended for 22 or higher.
Just curious, because I don't have one...how long is it?
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Posted - July 31 2010 : 1:13:34 PM
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quote:
Just curious, because I don't have one...how long is it?
Originally posted by burlington77Â -Â July 31 2010Â :Â 11:20:23 AM
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I have a couple. They're 71 scale HO feet long, or about 10 inches. I didn't include the coupler lengths, either, just to the edge of the body at each end.
Jerry
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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Posted - July 31 2010 : 9:00:03 PM
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| Thanks. I guess that is about an inch longer than my Trainmaster, which is my longest loco with body mount couplers.
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