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architrains
Switcher

Super Chief Wreck

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 Posted - December 29 2009 :  11:01:05 PM Link directly to this topic  Show Profile  Add architrains to Buddylist
I have an old bachmann CB&Q 4-8-4 with split frame and pancake motor that can hardly motivate itself around anymore, and 40% of the time needs a push start by hand at full throttle. I was saving my money for buying the Bowser repower kit, only to find that they discontinued it.

I've cleaned the motor twice, cleaned its housing in the frame, done everything I could think of, but it still limps around making a LOUD whining noise that almost undulates like sobbing.

I really want to get this engine running again, as it was given to me by a friend in the local club (when it was still extant) who passed away a year or so later. He was surprised at the time to find that it still ran, but he did an outstanding weathering job on the boiler that I've used as a guide for weathering all my other steam locos. (Plus it's my biggest engine...)



So, a couple questions...

Is the mounting of the frame on the newer 4-8-4s to the boiler similar to that of the older ones like mine? If so, I can just wait for one of the new UP Greyhound Niagara uglies to come up on ebay for a cheap price and swap out running gear.

But, I'd really like to save the carefully blackened siderods on the original running gear, so what are my options with replacing the pancake motor with the CD motors I've been reading about? I'll eagerly await any research anyone is doing in that direction.

Or is there some other option I haven't thought of? (I suppose I could leave the motor out and push it with my P2K CB&Q GP30, whenever I get new axles for IT...every gear split while it was sitting it its box...)

--Rio Grande--Thru the Rockies
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shaygetz
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 Posted - December 29 2009 :  11:25:17 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add shaygetz to Buddylist
I have one of those, like other offerings at the time, they suffered from cracking drive axles, which is probably what ails yours. One option you might consider is a Bowser repower kit, it would reuse those rods and give you a much beefier beast. The drawback is price, about $85 and availability, Bowser stopped producing them earlier this year so any supply is limited.

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smokie
Hudson

smokie

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 Posted - December 29 2009 :  11:35:48 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add smokie to Buddylist
i had a cb&q but it didn't run so i sent it back & they sent me a new niagara. i really wish i would have kept it instead & just found the parts on ebay to fix it. i loved that engine. they look awesome even though their not as well built as the newer ones. i don't understand why they don't reissue the cb&q with the 16 wheel tender. i would buy one in a heart beat.
jerry
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Ray Marinaccio
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 Posted - December 30 2009 :  12:11:32 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Ray Marinaccio to Buddylist
I would look around for a Bowser chassis for it.
I have one I just finished rebuilding with the Bowser chassis.
I put a can motor in it too.
It runs great,
I need to find another for my GS4.

Ray
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MM 1498
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 Posted - December 30 2009 :  12:42:21 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Click to see MM 1498's MSN Messenger address  Add MM 1498 to Buddylist
I hate Bachmann's split frame design...but I really like the strings for the bell and whistle on your model architrains.

I'm kinda in the same boat. I've got a 2-8-0 I'd like to repower but I'm not sure where to start. I haven't come across a motor that will fit where the pancake motor is placed. Someday I'll find a solution!


- Matt -

Edited by - MM 1498 on December 30 2009 12:42:47 AM
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NickelPlate759
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 Posted - December 30 2009 :  12:42:27 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add NickelPlate759 to Buddylist
You could try snapping one up for parts, but it would more than likely have the split axle syndrome, especially if it was a junker. I would take the bottom cover off, and see if any axles are split, and if so, how many. You can re-quarter them and then put a bead of CA where the wheel meets the axle.

There's also Bachmann's replacement policy, which would give you a new production version for $15, but if you don't want to part with the shell that would be a problem. Still, I know some guys who live in Philly who brought some old-time 4-4-0's that were busted up and missing pieces to Bachmann's headquarters, and they still honored the replacement policy. Maybe they'd replace it without the shell.

I was just searching Google search about this, I came across someone's repowering project that I hadn't seen before. He used a NWSL gearbox.

http://www2.polarcomm.com/~mcanson/

The Tyco Depot
Edited by - NickelPlate759 on December 30 2009 12:45:00 AM
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microbusss
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tiger

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 Posted - December 30 2009 :  11:29:40 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add microbusss to Buddylist
I like the train archi Its neato Gotta find one & thats a interesting link there NKP Good info
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VintageHO
Mikado


Tyco Time

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 Posted - December 30 2009 :  12:03:35 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add VintageHO to Buddylist
Hi Guys. Years ago Around the 1980's - Early 90's I believe it was Railroad Model Craftsmen or Model Railroading magazine had a step by step article on upgrading the drive similar to one Nelson mentioned except that it used the Pancake motor housing as a gear box and used a similar can motor. It used some parts from NSWL and Aline to make the changes. I remember doing it back then. It ran well. The article also mention on how to change the gear ratio to get different pulling power. This was all based on what was available then. With today's new Motors you could get better performance. When the early Conversion Kit from English can out I used that on may other Bachman 4-8-4 Niagara. It pulled Better and was less work. I still have that Niagara. The other engine I do not. If anyone has the magazines available from that time frame, maybe they might be able to locate the article. Carl
Numquam Immoderatio Satis Est
(Too Much Is Never Enough )

Edited by - VintageHO on January 04 2010 12:48:52 AM
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NickelPlate759
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 Posted - December 31 2009 :  12:28:10 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add NickelPlate759 to Buddylist
Thanks Microbusss, and Carl I'd love to see that article too. RMC was always great for that kind of stuff. And since we're all old pros now with our Dremels after our PT conversions (), hogging out the Northern frame for a can motor shouldn't be a big deal.
The Tyco Depot
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Ray Marinaccio
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 Posted - December 31 2009 :  11:50:10 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Ray Marinaccio to Buddylist
I did a search and found there are a series of 2 articles in Model Railroading May/June and July/Aug ,
Can motors for Bachmann HO scale 4-8-4s.
I don't have those issues but if someone does could they scan them and pass them around?

Ray
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architrains
Switcher

Super Chief Wreck

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 Posted - December 31 2009 :  2:35:46 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add architrains to Buddylist
Ray, it's possible I might have those issues...I remember there being quite a few issues of Model Railroading in the box of old magazines another member of the club gave me...I'll look when I get home on Monday. That sounds so familiar I might have bookmarked it when I was going through all of them for anything useful and completely forgot about it...

NKP, I don't think any of the axles are cracked, as I've had the cover off before to clean the contacts in the bearings, since they were caked with crud when I got it. The drivers do seem to want to come out of quarter a lot, though, so CA might help. I think the main problem was that there was enough carbon in the motor housing when I first opened it to just scoop it out with a toothpick. I think I've geven the whole motor an alcohol bath since then, but the commutator strip is just too burned up. If I could find a junker with a clean motor that I could swap out that might fix it. If I'm already going to that much trouble, though, I'd rather just upgrade.

--Rio Grande--Thru the Rockies
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microbusss
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tiger

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 Posted - December 31 2009 :  3:41:48 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add microbusss to Buddylist
I gotta find one to do Polar Express in HO if anyone gets a Bowser repair kitt I'll take one
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VintageHO
Mikado


Tyco Time

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 Posted - December 31 2009 :  5:43:58 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add VintageHO to Buddylist
Ray. You did not mention the year of the magazines. It is 1986 Model Railroading Magazine May/June and the July/ August Issues. Also They had a Bowser Upgrade review in the May 1987 Issue of Model Railroading.
I knew I should have kept all of those magazines. I was getting all three: Model Railroader, Model Railroad Craftsmen and Model Railroading from 1980 to 1995. 528 Magazines. And if I continued until now it would be another 504 making a Total of 1,032
Too Bad Model Railroading went out of Publication in 2007. Currently, I have about 50 Magazines mostly from 1940's Carl

Numquam Immoderatio Satis Est
(Too Much Is Never Enough )

Edited by - VintageHO on December 31 2009 5:51:26 PM
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Ray Marinaccio
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 Posted - December 31 2009 :  7:58:35 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Ray Marinaccio to Buddylist
quote:
Ray. You did not mention the year of the magazines. It is 1986 Model Railroading Magazine May/June and the July/ August Issues.
Originally posted by VintageHO-December 31 2009: 5:43:58 PM



OOPS,
I should have proof read the post. I got in a hurry.
I did put a can motor in a Bachmann 2-8-0 and 2 0-6-0 locos but didn't take enough photos to show how I did them.
If an easier way to mount the can motor can be done without to much filing or machining and new plastic axle centers can be made we can all revive our old Bachmanns.
I like the idea of keeping the original chassis.

I'm not familiar with the Polar Express , does it have a can motor already or does it have the pancake motor?

Ray
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architrains
Switcher

Super Chief Wreck

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 Posted - December 31 2009 :  8:29:11 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add architrains to Buddylist
I haven't had much luck finding anywhere online that still has the repower kits...they all seem to already be in the hands of professional rebuilders who want around $140 for the service. If anyone finds a source, let us know...

Coming on Monday...the mystery articles (possibly)

--Rio Grande--Thru the Rockies
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Ray Marinaccio
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 Posted - December 31 2009 :  8:35:19 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Ray Marinaccio to Buddylist
Here is a photo of the 2-8-0.
It uses the original axle gear and one original reduction gear with a worm on the motor.

This is the 4-8-4 with the Bowser drive.

Ray
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microbusss
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tiger

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 Posted - December 31 2009 :  10:37:56 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add microbusss to Buddylist
quote:
I'm not familiar with the Polar Express , does it have a can motor already or does it have the pancake motor?

I said
quote:
I gotta find one to do Polar Express in HO

I don't know anyone making one
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Ray Marinaccio
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 Posted - December 31 2009 :  11:31:29 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Ray Marinaccio to Buddylist
quote:
if anyone gets a Bowser repair kitt I'll take one

Originally posted by microbusss-December 31 2009: 3:41:48 PM


Oh, I thought we were talking about Bowser repair kits.
Still don't know what wheel arangement the Polar express was.
Whatever.

Ray
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romcat
Big Boy



LondonPortStanley

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 Posted - December 31 2009 :  11:57:48 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add romcat to Buddylist
Hey Ray:

Is the Bachmann Consolie the earlier one you sent me the shell for, or the later one, the Spectrum one? Btw if you mounted the Camelback Shell I sent you can you sned me a pic?

Thanks,
Gareth


"A is A"
-Aristotle
Law of Identification
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romcat
Big Boy



LondonPortStanley

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 Posted - December 31 2009 :  11:59:39 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add romcat to Buddylist
Oh the other dark meat! i have to get to bed only 3 minutes to midnight, my computers gonna turn into a pumpkin!

HNY all,
G.


"A is A"
-Aristotle
Law of Identification
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VintageHO
Mikado


Tyco Time

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 Posted - January 04 2010 :  12:51:18 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add VintageHO to Buddylist
quote:
Hi Guys. Years ago Around the 1980's - Early 90's I believe it was Railroad Model Craftsmen or Model Railroading magazine had a step by step article on upgrading the drive similar to one Nelson mentioned except that it used the Pancake motor housing as a gear box and used a similar can motor. It used some parts from NSWL and Aline to make the changes. I remember doing it back then. It ran well. The article also mention on how to change the gear ratio to get different pulling power. This was all based on what was available then. With today's new Motors you could get better performance. When the early Conversion Kit from English can out I used that on may other Bachman 4-8-4 Niagara. It pulled Better and was less work. I still have that Niagara. The other engine I do not. If anyone has the magazines available from that time frame, maybe they might be able to locate the article. Carl



Hi Guys. Great News. I contacted a Friend and I should Have all three Model Railroading Magazines soon.
So I will be able get to get you all the Information about Upgrading your Bachmann 4-8-4 Engine Drives...
Will Post as soon as I get them and scan the pages.. Carl

Numquam Immoderatio Satis Est
(Too Much Is Never Enough )
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architrains
Switcher

Super Chief Wreck

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 Posted - January 04 2010 :  4:58:10 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add architrains to Buddylist
Turns out I don't have those issues...the Model Railroading magazines I have start in 1991 and go through about 1998. I found I also have quite a few Railroad Modeler magazines from the 70s if anyone ever needs one of those. There are also several complete years of Model Railroader issues from that period and the late 60s. AND HO Scale Model Trains from the 50's. Good stuff. That box was a treasure trove.
--Rio Grande--Thru the Rockies
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graftonterminalrr
Little Six

Calvin

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 Posted - January 05 2010 :  09:08:00 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add graftonterminalrr to Buddylist
Ooookay, to clarify -

Someone mentioned the Polar Express. The locomotive in the movie is based off of Lima-built 2-8-4 Berkshire #1225 of the Pere Marquette, currently preserved in Michigan. Yes, it was chosen for it's number. If you wanted to model that locomotive in HO, the Bachmann 4-8-4 is way off - you can use an AHM/Rivarossi or a Proto 2000 Heritage Collection 2-8-4 as it is correct for the PM's NKP-copy Berks.

Secondly - old Bachmann steamers are as well-known for "split axle" syndrome as early Proto 2000 4-axle diesels are, in other words notoriously. This is what happens - Bachmann used a driver with a stub metal axle, which presses into a white plastic hollow axle. Over time, the plastic will contract or become brittle, and then, usually when running, one driver gets out-of-quarter. This produces stress on the remainder of the axles, which usually crack under the pressure. What will then happen is that the locomotive will either lose some drivers in spectacular fashion, or it will slow down and stall, and won't move again.

Here's a picture of a driver out of quarter, on a Bachmann Reading I10 2-8-0:



It IS possible to fix this defect with new plastic axles, although Bachmann does not make these parts anymore. It is possible to fabricate new ones with styrene plastic tubing, but this is not a job for the novice. And when you're done, you still have that crappy Bachmann pancake motor.

Bowser made a retrofit kit consisting of a new frame, new drivers and a Pittman motor (much like a Mantua/Tyco Pacific or Mikado running gear). You would re-use most of the Bachmann loco parts including valve gear, lead and trailing trucks, and boiler weight.

From time to time on Ebay or elsewhere, these retrofit kits come up. Bowser has announced that they are ceasing production of kits so whatever stocks they have left are extremely limited. However, if you contact Bowser you may be pointed in the right direction to a shop or distributor that has leftover stock.

Kris Carver-Seaboyer

Modelling the Grafton Terminal Railway, set in New Brunswick, Canada in the 1978-1984 time frame

Edited by - graftonterminalrr on January 05 2010 09:10:39 AM
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Ray Marinaccio
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 Posted - January 07 2010 :  1:44:44 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Ray Marinaccio to Buddylist
I found a few lost photos of the chassis of my 4-8-4.
This is the early Bowser kit that used part of the Bachmann chassis.
The newer kits are a complete frame.
I built a new gear box and motor mount to replace the open frame motor with worm.





Ray
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NickelPlate759
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 Posted - January 09 2010 :  5:21:58 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add NickelPlate759 to Buddylist
Are those Mantua Pacific drivers, Ray?
The Tyco Depot
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Ray Marinaccio
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 Posted - January 09 2010 :  5:29:16 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Ray Marinaccio to Buddylist
I believe they are Mantua drivers.
They came on the loco when I got it.
Not sure if Bowser made a clone of them or if they are what was used on the T1 or what.

Ray
Edited by - Ray Marinaccio on January 09 2010 5:33:03 PM
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VintageHO
Mikado


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 Posted - January 09 2010 :  5:37:49 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add VintageHO to Buddylist
Hi Guys. I have the 1986 Model Railroading Articles on the Bachmann can Moter Upgrade. I have scanned them into a pdf File. Is there a way to Attach a PDF file here... ? If Not I can either post all 10 pages or I can send the file to anyone who PMs me with a Email address. When I saw The Article I remembered the amount of work. But, It was Worth it Carl
Numquam Immoderatio Satis Est
(Too Much Is Never Enough )
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VintageHO
Mikado


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Hi Guys. Since I do not know on how to attach a pdf File to a post. I'm going to try and and post all ten pages of the 2 part article. So you can use the Information on how to upgrade your Bachmann Steam engines. If anyone wants a Copy of the complete PDF file, Just PM me with a email address, Like Ray did and I will send it to you. I did this Upgrade back then and I was very happy with the results. Carl





















Numquam Immoderatio Satis Est
(Too Much Is Never Enough )

Edited by - VintageHO on January 20 2010 10:20:52 PM
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smokie
Hudson

smokie

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 Posted - April 30 2011 :  10:19:03 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add smokie to Buddylist
do all the bachmann CB&Q 4-8-4 engines have the pancake motor?
jerry
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JRG1951
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 Posted - January 11 2012 :  3:46:20 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Send JRG1951 a Yahoo! Message  Add JRG1951 to Buddylist
A few years back I traded a Athearn GE engine for a Bachmann Santa Fe 4-8-4. I had a existing spectrum model of this engine and was satisfied with the looks and performance.

to my horror when I got it home I found that it was a pan cake chassis. The tender shell and the engine body were in very good shape, but it ran like a ruptured duck. I wrote the engine off, and placed it in the someday I may deal with it shelf.

A few months latter I was out of town, and my wife had towed me into a Hobby Lobby. Well in the model train section was an Overland train set with a Union Pacific 4-8-4. The body was a NYC Niagra with a vanderbilt tender. Well the set had been marked to half 4 times. So I stood and imagined a Texas And Rio Grande 4-8-4 passenger engine, then I paid the clerk and took my impulse home.

Then I had an idea!

To get to the point I combined the can motor chassis from the train set engine with the body, tender, cylinders/valvegear, and trailing truck from the old pan cake engine. I replaced the plastic wheels on the old tender with new metal 40" wheels. This provided a new smooth running engine. Bachmann used the same running gear from the spectrum 4-8-4's in the train set engine. The old Santa Fe body and accessories matched the new chassis right down to the mounting holes.

I ended up with a complete smooth running Santa Fe type 4-8-4 locomotive and an extra Vanderbilt tender.
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NickelPlate759
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 Posted - January 12 2012 :  2:15:29 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add NickelPlate759 to Buddylist
That was a good find, JRG. All the Bachmann Northerns have the same chassis, so swapping them out is easy.
The Tyco Depot
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catfordken
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 Posted - January 12 2012 :  2:27:12 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Send catfordken a Yahoo! Message  Add catfordken to Buddylist
just in case you guys forgot gareth posted this link,just not that year
http://www.trainlife.com/magazines/browse?search=&title=2&year=1988&order=creation_date&page=&tag=&start_date=&end_date=

Edited by - catfordken on January 12 2012 2:28:15 PM
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