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 Posted - March 25 2008 : 1:12:04 PM
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For those of you who want to replace the PT-type motor. It does come in a 12volt version.I didn't ask about the price but would expect them to be VERY expensive. Prohibatively expensive!!
http://www.globalspec.com/FeaturedProducts/Detail/micromo/Powerful_UltraFlat_DC_Motor/23606/0?fromSpotlight=1&paidFromBricklet=1&fromAreaId=17
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Posted - March 25 2008 : 1:58:29 PM
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Hey Antman:
I'd visited this site before.
Ray and I are working on a front power-truck motor replacememnt. The 26/7mm size should work, though the shaft will likely have to be trimmed back.
I sent them an email about pricing. I thought I saw the motor in a electronics catalog and ruled it out because of price. Keep in mind that the truck block will need machining to round out the existing amrmature hole. Thats part of why we're looking at casting or machining a new block.
-Gareth
Edited by - romcat on March 25 2008 2:08:10 PM
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Posted - March 25 2008 : 11:21:57 PM
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I only posted it for the serious die hard Tyco lovers. I figuered it would be way too expensive for me. I'd just save some money and work by altering the shell to fit an Athearn frame.
Did you ever get a response regarding the price? I found that motor while searching for a twin shaft Canon motor. Canon used to make a "CN-22". I can find the single shaft version on ebay. There is a seller who sells 5 motors for about $35. But I need the twin shaft version and it seems to have disappeared.
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Posted - March 25 2008 : 11:58:48 PM
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Ant-Man:
They responded witha request for my full name email address??? Mail adddress, company name etc. I told them I just need a price for pitys sake!
-G
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Posted - March 26 2008 : 12:30:38 AM
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Hi All,
After checking out the web site I called and spoke to a sales person. She quoted the 12 volt motor at $29.00, if you buy 4 or more you get a whopping .50 cent discount.
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Posted - March 26 2008 : 12:46:13 AM
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Hey eaglerock109:
Thanks for looking into that.
Ray and I have a motor in mind for the TERP (Tyco Engine Replacement Project) There's just no way we're gonna be able to bring a kit to market to replace the existing PT if the motor alone is $30.
-Gareth
Edited by - romcat on March 26 2008 01:45:06 AM
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Posted - March 26 2008 : 12:18:57 PM
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Those Faulhaber motors look too long anyway. They wouldn't fit inside the truck bolster.
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - March 26 2008 : 12:29:51 PM
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Actually, $29.00 isn't a bad price for a coreless motor. And with just a bit of work, it looks like a good replacement for the PT and other makes of pan cake style motors. I might just have to get one for an older Bachmann electric loco I have. Just hard to convince myself to spend more for a motor then the loco cost when new!
That Tyco remotor project sounds kinda cool. But you have to admit that the size of your customer base will be rather small. Do you plan to produce a repower kit that will be adaptable to other makes?
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Posted - March 26 2008 : 1:07:35 PM
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| has anyone considered speed. I wonder what the PT motor shaft speed is before it is geared down to the wheels.
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Posted - March 26 2008 : 1:57:44 PM
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The specs are confusing. It says the motors are 5-7mm long, but the sideview clearly shows it being much longer.
It also appears to have a shaft too large for the PT pinion, even if it were drilled out. That brings up another issue - that the pinions usually failed before the motors. I think Ray & Gareth's project is a far better investment. I'm curious to see what sort of gearing they come up with.
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Posted - March 26 2008 : 3:45:49 PM
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Hey NP:
When you say the pinion failed; do you mean the gear on the armature/pinion shaft?
The gears are going to have to be "off the shelf" somehow. It would be a ridiculous investment to make them. Same goes for the motor. The project really revolves around making the truck block itself in/on which everything mounts.
It also has to be simple. Most modelers these days just don't have the skills to press fit gears, pins etc.
The customer base will be pretty small, so their won't likely be any vacation homes or BMW's bought with any proceeds. Sometimes people do stuff because they enjoy the doing. Most artists don't sell well in their lifetimes except the pop culture ones.
As to engine speed, Ray has already tested a motor that seems satisfactory.
About other makes and manufacturers that is the problem of their devotee's! For what ever reason this is appealing and thats all the justification I need. Ray will have his own motivations.
-Gareth
Edited by - romcat on March 26 2008 4:20:04 PM
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Posted - March 26 2008 : 10:24:31 PM
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quote:| Hey NP:When you say the pinion failed; do you mean the gear on the armature/pinion shaft? Originally posted by romcat - March 26 2008 : 7:45:49 PM
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Yep, they were the weak point. Once they stripped they tore up the large plastic gear, and it was game over. I think they made the pinions from white metal. I have one later version with a brass pinion, which is how they should have made them from the start.
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Posted - March 27 2008 : 12:41:41 AM
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Hey NP:
Brass huh? Thats very interesting. I'm trying to piece this thing together. I haven't been near a mill or a lathe since the early 90's but with Ray's encouragement i'm gonna save for a Mill; Initially that will hold my Dremel, then a Taig to replace that. I could at one tme cut pretty precise threads on a lathe.
I may return to Community College to finish my long abandoned Mech Engineering-Product Design Diploma and would take the time to redo the two machine shop courses. I'm pretty sure I can bring myself back up to speed on the drafting. I have a; what was once a insanely expensive drafting board and machine in the next room. It was about $2000+ in the day. Great huge Bu---r.
I learned CAD/CAM at College at the same time but I kinda like drafting. Course I will have to do a CAD drawing of the TERP just to make it easier to manufacture.
Anyway, I have a guy I need to go show the truck block to, who does have a couple of CNC Mills and bounce it around with him. It's critical in terms of production to make it as simple as possible. The more pieces with less effort the better!
Ray suggested casting, and there are a lot of lateral benefits to that. Not the least of which casting of unavailable parts. That idea is very interesting.
-Gareth
Edited by - romcat on March 27 2008 12:45:50 AM
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Posted - March 27 2008 : 01:02:06 AM
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I thought this particular pinion was just stained with old oil when I got the unit, but when I cleaned it up and looked at it under magnification I realized it was brass. I'm not sure if it's sintered brass, but it looks just like some of the old brass Athearn flywheels that had a matte finish.
I wish I had the money for all of those goodies. I'd even settle for a lathe so I could make my own flywheels & gears & such. [:p]
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Posted - March 27 2008 : 01:15:35 AM
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Hey NP:
Look at it this way. I drive a 14 year old car, and don't eat meat and dairy. The only discretionary spending I do is on model trains. Even that adds up to less than $50/mo currently. But I'm willing to save and skrimp to get that Mill cause there are several things I can make in batches for other hobbyists as well that will put coppers in the jar! [:D] [:D] [:D]
Best way for me to make things better is work more. I have been working only part-time for health reasons but I'm a lot healthier now so more work will mean more cash. Won't lead to a more extravegent life-style but a little more security rather than hand-to-mouth would be nice! [:D]
Any other insights on the PT's are real helpful. I'm probably going to post a wanted request to purchase a complete set of the various PT's that were made, both the bare main casting and the complete versions with armature/gears etx...
-Gareth
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Roy
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Posted - March 27 2008 : 07:23:02 AM
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Best wishes to Gareth and Ray, on your TERP!
I just now dug out my Chessie Alco 630, which I double-motored. I haven't disassembled the motor truck; I'm just examining it from the outside. I'm also going by what operators here have said. And, I don't know if you and Ray are bent on an all-new design. Anyway, here are some thoughts and questions:
-One thing I've heard about coreless can motors(such as the Faulhauber cited,) is that they are NOT good at conducting heat. Therefore, not a good choice, in this application.
-If these old PT motor trucks tend to overheat, perhaps more vent holes in the non-brush side of the motor casting might help- especially if a fan blade were mounted on the motor shaft.
-Have you and Ray considered buying/building an armature rewinder?
-I'd definitely go with a brass or bronze armature pinion and washer. You might be able to get suitable extruded pinion stock- it has the best material properties. However, if you're going to replace all the gears, you probably will want brass gears, and steel pinions.
-Are the die-cast motor frames failing(aside from the need for rebushing/restudding?) If so, how?
-If you're intent on making new motor frames, you might consider something heavy, which is also a good heat conductor, like copper. On the other hand- if all PT locos have the same massive weight between the fuel tank facades that mine has, you might do as well with aluminum.
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Posted - March 27 2008 : 2:56:45 PM
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This is the first PT that I remotored.
I mounted the block in the lathe and cut out enough material for the motor to fit.
I changed the gearing on this one by adding another reduction gear. I would rather use the original single reduction gearing if possible.
Ray
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Roy
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Posted - March 27 2008 : 4:06:35 PM
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quote:This is the first PT that I remotored...
Originally posted by Ray Marinaccio
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Slick job there, Ray! Does the new motor have a gearhead?
How does this remotor perform?
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Posted - March 28 2008 : 02:11:14 AM
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The motor is direct drive. This one runs great.
I want to try a different motor and try the stock Tyco gear ratio.
If that combination works out it will be put in a locomotive and go on tour as a demonstrator.
Ray
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Posted - March 28 2008 : 02:51:42 AM
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Ray, you said a while back that you needed to work out a a circuit to drop the voltage to that motor, but wouldn't it just be easier to find another CD tray motor with a higher voltage rating? Maybe that's what you meant in your last post, but it's hit or miss when you tear apart an old disk drive. Most of them are rated at only 5 volts.
ModelTorque of Australia makes these remotoring kits for Lima locos, and I'm curious to know what model # the motor is.
http://www.modeltorque.com.au/Lima.htm
The Tyco Depot
Edited by - NickelPlate759 on March 28 2008 02:52:41 AM
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Posted - March 28 2008 : 03:03:52 AM
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That would be the motor we need.
I have one that is marked 13.8 volts on it that I want to use but finding them in quantity at a decent price is the catch.
A 5 volt motor would be usable if you put 2 power trucks under one locomotive and wired them in series. (which wouldn't be a bad idea)
Ray
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Posted - March 28 2008 : 11:36:13 AM
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| I have several motors that look just like the one pictured on that link you provided. But mine are all 5.9 volt. The link mentions using diodes to match the speed of the original motor. Could that be like Ray's voltage dropping circuit?
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Posted - March 28 2008 : 12:32:49 PM
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quote:That would be the motor we need.
I have one that is marked 13.8 volts on it that I want to use but finding them in quantity at a decent price is the catch.
A 5 volt motor would be usable if you put 2 power trucks under one locomotive and wired them in series. (which wouldn't be a bad idea)
Originally posted by Ray Marinaccio - March 28 2008 : 07:03:52 AM
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I have 2 of those motors that run pretty well at 13 volts, but finding them in bulk is difficult as you said. Sometimes motors rated at 5.9 or 7V run fine at that voltage. I'd like to get the make (probably Mabuchi) and model # from those motors that cv-backshop sells on eBay for remotoring old Rivarossis.
I put two motors and power trucks in my Rivarossi GG1, and wired the motors in series. The speed is about right, and the motors work together like an electro-mechanical differential.
quote:| I have several motors that look just like the one pictured on that link you provided. But mine are all 5.9 volt. The link mentions using diodes to match the speed of the original motor. Could that be like Ray's voltage dropping circuit? Originally posted by Hypoponera - March 28 2008 : 3:36:13 PM
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Try those motors on 13V and see how they do. A diode will drop the voltage about .7V, so if you string them in series you'll get multiples of that: 2 diodes = 1.4V, and so forth. Ray was sketching a more complicated circuit to drop the voltage. I used two diodes for a 1.4V drop to slow down the faster truck when I double-motored my PT Shark years ago, but when the trucks got erratic, they fought each other and stripped the pinions. The new can motors have a much more consistent speed.
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Posted - March 28 2008 : 12:36:48 PM
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Hey All:
NP: you must mean the drawer motor which is what Ray I think said he used. Almost everyhing that spins inside a computer uses 12V, everyhing else 5V. Course that was in my Computer A+ service days in the mid-90's! [:D]
Best,
Gareth
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Roy
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Posted - March 28 2008 : 12:55:27 PM
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| Could ModelTorque be using a 4.5V Zener diode?
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Posted - March 28 2008 : 1:11:27 PM
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I can ask Anthony at CV Back Shop what kind of price he can get on those motors in quanity when I see him at the next club meeting. All electronics sells some that are rated for 6V I think for about 80 cents each.
I will have to try a Zener diode. I used them on another locomotive to get a voltage drop for constant lighting.
Ray
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Posted - March 28 2008 : 3:36:19 PM
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My guess is that they run the drawer motors on 5V, since every one I've seen has been rated at 5.9V. Some of them spin way too fast and burn out at 12.
That probably is a Zener, but I wonder how much of a voltage drop they selected, because they say you can use it without.
Ray, here's a link to that motor. One comment says it runs cool at 15V.
http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/DCM-269/400/1.5_-_6_VDC_MOTOR_.html
It looks like the shaft is 1.5mm in diameter, which is close to the 1mm PT shaft. It's awfully short tho.
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Posted - March 28 2008 : 4:15:39 PM
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Hey guys:
The Lima Remotor kit (MMLF-20) linked above retails for $32USD. Nice motor, but two in a Tyco C-430 for example; one in each truck would be OUCH!
You could of course choose to use only one...
-Gareth
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Posted - March 28 2008 : 4:53:48 PM
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I forgot to mention that, Gareth. You can only fit one power truck in the Alcos or the Geep. 
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Posted - March 28 2008 : 5:21:11 PM
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Hey NP:
Negative there buddy, The Alco's will hold a second PT:
Exhibit "A"
-Gareth
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Posted - March 28 2008 : 7:15:29 PM
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Nice work shop Gareth, I am also Gilbert American Flyer and an HO modeler!
I am enjoying this topic on finding an answer to re-motoring our prized possessions and I am sure this is on alot of other peoples minds who do not even know about this forum.
Let's face it, Mantua and Mantua/Tyco were in business for how many decades? I would think there is enough product out their to make it profitable to a small manufacturer. (or a group effort... [:D]
Always looking on the bright side,
Mike
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Posted - March 29 2008 : 12:31:09 AM
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Not my workshop guys. Picture a guy I met online sent me.
On the amount of dead or abandoned Tyco's out there; well there are lots but it's a matter of who will pay to purchase a truck block/pancake motor combo!? Actually thats not a bad question... I think I'll post that in the Tyco specific section....
-Gareth
Edited by - romcat on March 29 2008 01:10:52 AM
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Posted - March 29 2008 : 03:00:10 AM
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Interesting Gareth, that's a different bolster than the typical oval one. I think I've only seen those on rear dummy trucks. It sounded like you were talking about fit, not price.
I don't think it would work with MU-2 trucks, tho.
The Tyco Depot
Edited by - NickelPlate759 on March 29 2008 03:05:56 AM
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 Posted - March 29 2008 : 09:45:56 AM
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Hey NP:
Been wondering about the MU-2 fit on the side myself, cause ya know the main PT replacememnt problems aren't enough to make Ray and I totally wacky!!! [:D] [:D] [:D] [:D] [:D]
Actually I do think the MU-2 will fit even in a GP20. the pivot clearence of degrees for an 18R track isn't much. In any case. Lets solve the PT truck problem first. Ray and I were talking about a very different solution to the dual truck power MU-2 problem.
-Gareth
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Roy
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Posted - March 29 2008 : 10:48:53 AM
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quote:| ...The Alco's will hold a second PT... Originally posted by romcat |
Looks just like mine. I can't remember test running it on track, though- so I don't know how well it runs, or what radius track curvature it needs. Mine has six wheel trucks, with all axles powered.
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Roy
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Posted - March 29 2008 : 11:13:55 AM
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| Have you considered a parallel-plate design for your replacement truck? Also, the pickup wheels could be nickel silver.
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Posted - March 29 2008 : 1:02:05 PM
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quote:Have you considered a parallel-plate design for your replacement truck? Also, the pickup wheels could be nickel silver.
Originally posted by Roy - March 29 2008 : 10:13:55 AM
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I would have to look into the possibility of a multi piece replacement block as compared to casting a new one or machining the original blocks.
The nickel silver wheels are a thought. The tender drive steam engines has them.
Ray
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