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 Posted - February 23 2008 : 4:31:28 PM
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Hey Guys. I went to a model train flea market today, and I had great luck. I bought a few engines that were in nice shape, but don't run. One of them is an Athearn Alco PA-1. The motor looks fine, and the headlight works, but it won't run. I've been told to lubricate some different parts, but I have no clue how to take it apart to do this. Can anyone help me out?
-cheez
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 Posted - February 23 2008 : 4:41:37 PM
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Hey Cheez:
See that metal "strap" running over the motor and having friction contact with the 90deg tounges coming up from the trucks. They often get corroded and the contact is poor. It's very common to hard wire the tucks to the motor and eliminate the strap. Try getting ahold of ray. I think he wrote an article for "2guys...." about this.
-Gareth
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Posted - February 23 2008 : 4:42:59 PM
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This link may help.
http://2guyz.info/Content/pa=showpage/pid=24.html
The worm housings are a little different and the bottom truck clip ends must be pried outward to release them but the bulk of the procedure is the same.
Ray
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Posted - February 23 2008 : 5:10:36 PM
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That's the one ST.Ray!
-Gareth
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Posted - February 23 2008 : 6:13:32 PM
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Those are great old engines, Cheez, and with those flywheels it should coast into next week. [;)] That rusted contact strip is probably the reason you get no signs of life, but these Athearns are hard to kill and easy to service.
Not to take anything away from Ray, but I've found this Athearn tuneup page useful as well. Be aware that the engine pictured is a later version with the newer motor, and that yours has the older diecast sideframe trucks.
http://www.mcor-nmra.org/Publications/Articles/Athearn_TuneUp.html
The Tyco Depot
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 Posted - February 23 2008 : 6:25:04 PM
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The link Nelson posted is a good page to book mark as a reference.
Ray
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Posted - February 23 2008 : 6:29:36 PM
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I just went through your clinic, Ray. That gets bookmarked as well! [^]
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - February 23 2008 : 6:50:11 PM
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I actually sanded the contact strip with fine sand paper to get the rust off the contact points. I used Ray's tutorial and then re-assembled it. The headlight is 3 times brighter than it was before (so i guess something is cleaner, but the engine still refuses to move.
Is the commutator supposed to spin inside that black metal ring? If so, than thats my problem. The commutater was so stuck, I couldn't even get it out of the ring to clean it. Any ideas on how to fix it?
-cheez
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Posted - February 23 2008 : 6:57:37 PM
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It sounds like the armature has corroded inside the magnet ring. Do you see any rust or other foreign substance in the gap between the armature and magnet? The commutator is the collar of copper plates, but the armature is the whole assembly, including the windings and shaft.
I generally soak anything badly rusted in Liquid Wrench to free it, but that would stink to holy heck every time you ran the engine. Have you tried working it loose?
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Posted - February 23 2008 : 9:11:50 PM
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There is the metal shaft with the wire wrapped around it going through the metal ring. Then there are 5 tabs that stick out between the wire winding and the metal ring. The tabs seem to be stuck/rusted to the metal ring.
I've stuck nails in the gabs between the tabs and I've pressed the thing against a piece of wood, and it is stuck in there good. I'll try soaking it in some rust remover.
-cheez
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Posted - February 23 2008 : 9:31:20 PM
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The 5 steel armature poles are rusted to the magnet ring. Take a look at the armature in Ray's photos, and you'll see what I mean. I've never heard of a motor doing this that wasn't in a flood, but I guess it was in a very humid environment.
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Posted - February 23 2008 : 10:01:27 PM
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Wow, I have never come across one like that.
If you can't get it out by soaking it (which should work), I might have a complete motor or at least an armature and magnet.
Ray
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midmo1
Little Six
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Posted - February 23 2008 : 10:03:36 PM
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Heres' what I do
Take the body off....which is already done I assume
get out the WD 40....shoot a quick squirt at the commutator....spin the armature by hand back and forth...put it on the track and turn up the throttle about 25%.....if it starts moving....spray the track just ahead (or behind)of the wheels....run it back and forth over this area a few times....shoot the commutator again while its moving....also you may wanna check and make sure that the tops of the trucks where they meet the chassis...is clean free of paint, dirt or debris....this is a contact point...
has the motor been moved?....make sure the tabs underneath the motor are facing down the way they should...and are not dirty
hope that helps...
Ted
midmo1
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Posted - February 23 2008 : 10:15:02 PM
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This is one I changed the motor in.
It took a little bit of grinding in the motor cavity but it is a real nice runner now.
Ray
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Posted - February 24 2008 : 12:40:07 AM
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Hey Ray,
I just picked up several of those motors just for the same purpose. I have a pair of PAs and a bunch of C-Liners that needed new motors. About how much grinding did you need to do? The grinding is why I have yet to finish the PAs! Just haven't had the time to take on that kind of challenge!
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Posted - February 24 2008 : 12:43:35 AM
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Ummm....ok, it's been soaking in liquid wrench for the past 2 hours, and it's still stuck. How long am I sposed to leave it in there??
Geez...this is like a repeat of auto class last week. Well, the hammer didn't work on that CV joint....I'm guessing it won't work on this either? I guess I'll let the commutater soak overnight and see what happens...
-cheez
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Posted - February 24 2008 : 01:30:41 AM
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quote:Hey Ray,
About how much grinding did you need to do? The grinding is why I have yet to finish the PAs! Just haven't had the time to take on that kind of challenge!
Originally posted by Hypoponera - February 23 2008 : 11:40:07 PM
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All that's needed is to grind the inside top edges at about a 45 degree angle the length of the motor until there is about 1/16" of the top of the frame still there. I made some supports to sit under the output shafts to hold them at the same height as the worm shafts.
I put a generous helping of silicone on the frame and set the motor in place. then let it dry for a few days.
cheez
Soaking over night should loosen it up. If not, let me know.
Ray
Edited by - Ray Marinaccio on February 24 2008 01:33:05 AM
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Posted - February 24 2008 : 01:38:58 AM
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Overnight for me means about 1 o'clock tommorrow afternoon, so if its not loose by then I guess its junk. Hypop's got a few motors lieing around that he's going to send me, so I should be good.
I'm going off topic here, but you said you used sylicone to hold the motor in place. I've got a pair of Tyco F-7's that have no fuel tanks. They are the kind with the single post that the tanks screw into. I've got the tanks but the the posts have snapped off and I'm not sure how to stick them in there...would sylicone work for this???
-cheez
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Posted - February 24 2008 : 01:49:22 AM
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| Thanks Ray! Of course, now I don't have an excuse for not getting that project rolling again. Better get the Dremel charged-up!
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Posted - February 24 2008 : 01:54:59 AM
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quote:Overnight for me means about 1 o'clock tommorrow afternoon, so if its not loose by then I guess its junk. Hypop's got a few motors lieing around that he's going to send me, so I should be good.
I'm going off topic here, but you said you used sylicone to hold the motor in place. I've got a pair of Tyco F-7's that have no fuel tanks. They are the kind with the single post that the tanks screw into. I've got the tanks but the the posts have snapped off and I'm not sure how to stick them in there...would sylicone work for this???
-cheez
Originally posted by DaCheez - February 24 2008 : 12:38:58 AM
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It might hold if you can put a dab on top and on the sides at the bottom.
Be certain the sylicone won't react badly with the plastic first.
To fix one I had, I drilled small holes (same as the highth of the slots) in the front and back slots on the shell skirting and into the weights. Then glued metal pins into the weights that slipped into the holes in the shell.
Ray
Edited by - Ray Marinaccio on February 24 2008 01:56:18 AM
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Posted - February 24 2008 : 02:51:56 AM
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Cheez, let the motor soak. It will take a while for it to get thru all the rust. I've been amazed at the things I've been able to free up with penetrating oil.
Ray, I bought a bunch of those motors from All Elec. myself (I read your recommendation on 2 Guyz), but do you find that they're too slow? They didn't seem to have enough top speed for passenger diesels. Also, the shaft is an odd size. I wish I could turn my own flywheels for them. [:(]
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Edited by - NickelPlate759 on February 24 2008 02:52:46 AM
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Posted - February 24 2008 : 03:06:33 AM
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They do run a little slow. My RR is kind of mountainous so it isn't a problem but that is a good point to keep in mind.
A flywheel from a P2K motor will fit the shaft. The P2K E units have some good sized flywheels. I have ordered them from Walthers in the past, not sure how many they have in stock.
Ray
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Posted - February 24 2008 : 03:28:46 AM
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Thanks for that info, Ray.
I bought a few of these as well:
http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/DCM-300/400/12_VDC_IRON_CORE_MOTOR_.html
As I hoped, these are a perfect replacement for the large Rivarossi motors in their big UP articulateds. Size and speed is perfect, but the torque is a little less. Those Rivarossi motors packed quite a wallop.
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Posted - February 24 2008 : 10:33:22 AM
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| I reused the original steel flywheels that came on the old Athearn motor. These flywheels come with a plastic bushing. Find a piece of brass tube with the correct internal diameter to fit the motor shaft. Then hand drill the plastic fly bushing to provide a very snug fit for the tube. Cut a short piece of the tubing and pound it into the plastic bushing. It shoud require the use of a tack hammer otherwise you drilled the bushing to large. Then gently work the motor shaft into the brass tube. Once in place, add a small drop of thin superglue.
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Posted - February 24 2008 : 12:04:06 PM
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quote:Thanks for that info, Ray.
I bought a few of these as well:
http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/DCM-300/400/12_VDC_IRON_CORE_MOTOR_.html
As I hoped, these are a perfect replacement for the large Rivarossi motors in their big UP articulateds. Size and speed is perfect, but the torque is a little less. Those Rivarossi motors packed quite a wallop.
Originally posted by NickelPlate759Â -Â February 24 2008Â :Â 02:28:46 AM
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I haven't tried those motors, but if it is anything like the flat can Cannon motor I have, it will work great.
Ray
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Posted - February 24 2008 : 1:10:34 PM
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EHEHEHHHHH!![:p] I GOT IT WORKING!!!![:D] [:D] [:D] I pulled the armature out of the liquid wrench this morning, gave it a couple taps with a hammer, and the thing popped right out. I reassembled it, and it started right up.
-cheez
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Posted - February 24 2008 : 2:03:12 PM
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quote:EHEHEHHHHH!![:p] I GOT IT WORKING!!!![:D] [:D] [:D] I pulled the armature out of the liquid wrench this morning, gave it a couple taps with a hammer, and the thing popped right out. I reassembled it, and it started right up.
-cheez
Originally posted by DaCheez - February 24 2008 : 12:10:34 PM
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That's great.
Those old Athearns never die.[:D]
Ray
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Posted - February 24 2008 : 2:15:01 PM
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The motor's running, so it's good for now, but the wheels are a little worn, and the rubber thing that holds the motor to the chassis dried, and part of it cracked off. Can I still get replacements for these??
Oh, and the rear truck frames on the B-unit seem to be corroding... Should I just taking some fine sand paper and scrape all the rough stuff off of them?
-cheez
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Posted - February 24 2008 : 2:52:43 PM
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I see the motor mounts on Ebay. and if you can find a Horizon affiliated LHS they should still be able to get them.
Fine sand paper or a small wire brush will work for taking the rust off.
How bad are the wheels? Are they the sintered iron wheels?
Ray
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Posted - February 24 2008 : 4:10:15 PM
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I'm not sure what the wheels are made of. They're a dull grey metal. The flanges are worn, and the train sparks a little as it runs.
-cheez
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Posted - February 24 2008 : 4:51:02 PM
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quote:I'm not sure what the wheels are made of. They're a dull grey metal. The flanges are worn, and the train sparks a little as it runs.
-cheez
Originally posted by DaCheez - February 24 2008 : 3:10:15 PM
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Sounds like the sintered iron wheels.
Ray
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Posted - February 24 2008 : 5:28:40 PM
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quote:| EHEHEHHHHH!![:p] I GOT IT WORKING!!!![:D] [:D] [:D] I pulled the armature out of the liquid wrench this morning, gave it a couple taps with a hammer, and the thing popped right out. I reassembled it, and it started right up. Originally posted by DaCheez - February 24 2008 : 5:10:34 PM
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Wow! [:O] Were those Blue Boxes originally designed for military use? [:O)]
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