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kovacste000
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 Posted - January 12 2021 :  02:15:11 AM Link directly to this topic  Show Profile  Add kovacste000 to Buddylist
Hey, it's me. Recently, I pulled out my beautiful 1950's all-metal Mantua pacific and I noticed that when it goes around my curves, it starts slipping like crazy and sometimes stops (the wheels are still spinning when it does this). It also seems to make a bit of a clicking noise as it moves (although this has died down with a bit of work), and the source of it appears to be the geared wheel, as it seems to kinda twitch as it does it. I've tried to investigate the cause and I have been able to improve it slightly, but I still have no idea why this is happening. Anybody have any ideas?It's definitely gotten better since I started working on it, but it's still an issue for whatever reason.One thing that might help you guys is that when the two screws on the back of the metal gear cover thingie are fully screwed in, the motor has a hard time turning the gears (here's a photo from a diagram of the gear cover thingie I'm referring to. The two screws on the back of it are the screws I'm talking about.)



So, basically, as of right now, those two back screws aren't in there at all (I have them stored away in a place that I can easily grab them if/when I put them back on), and because of that, the engine runs significantly better, weirdly enough.Another thing I did was flip the brass bearings on the geared wheel (since I eventually came to the conclusion that it's a mechanical issue since the electrical connections are fine and there's no locking up in the valve gear after removing the motor), and that also improved the performance. Again, anybody have any ideas what the issue might be? My best guess would be something not meshing right, but I haven't found anything horribly wrong as of yet. Over lubrication, maybe...?

By the way, here's some photos I just took of the valve gear. Don't know if this will help much, but it's all I can do for the time being.






-Steve

"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."

Edited by - kovacste000 on January 12 2021 02:24:46 AM
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A-A-RON
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 Posted - January 12 2021 :  04:25:32 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add A-A-RON to Buddylist
Don't take my word for it, but to me that's the telltale sign of a cracked drive gear. I have one of these myself, and mine tends to have drive gear come unbolted on curves.
Aaron Anderson
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Chops124
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 Posted - January 12 2021 :  11:49:55 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Chops124 to Buddylist
Eeeeeeeeewwwwww.
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scsshaggy
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 Posted - January 12 2021 :  1:01:27 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add scsshaggy to Buddylist
I had one of those, once where the gear mesh was too tight and put a little shim between the gear box and the frame. It wasn't much of a shim, but just enough to put the weight on the bearings rather than on the gear. Before the shim was there, the gears were carrying the weight of the engine, and the wheels were not level with each other. It's possible that the click is coming from some misalignment of the connecting rods, caused by the gear pushing down on the wheel. First thing to try would be to get the gear mesh right.
Carpe Manana!
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A-A-RON
Mikado


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 Posted - January 12 2021 :  1:21:49 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add A-A-RON to Buddylist
That drive gear also looks bent though... I know on mine if I over tightened one of those screws a bit, it would make it way too tight to run.
Aaron Anderson
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kovacste000
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 Posted - January 12 2021 :  3:09:23 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add kovacste000 to Buddylist
quote:
I had one of those, once where the gear mesh was too tight and put a little shim between the gear box and the frame. It wasn't much of a shim, but just enough to put the weight on the bearings rather than on the gear. Before the shim was there, the gears were carrying the weight of the engine, and the wheels were not level with each other. It's possible that the click is coming from some misalignment of the connecting rods, caused by the gear pushing down on the wheel. First thing to try would be to get the gear mesh right.

Originally posted by scsshaggy - January 12 2021 :  1:01:27 PM

How exactly would you do that? The gears seem to mesh alright when I spin it by hand. I'm kinda curious about the shim thing, though. How exactly would you do that? Just get some little washers or something?

-Steve

"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
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BlaxlandAlex3
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Jupiterpfp2

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 Posted - January 12 2021 :  3:21:22 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add BlaxlandAlex3 to Buddylist
quote:
quote:
I had one of those, once where the gear mesh was too tight and put a little shim between the gear box and the frame. It wasn't much of a shim, but just enough to put the weight on the bearings rather than on the gear. Before the shim was there, the gears were carrying the weight of the engine, and the wheels were not level with each other. It's possible that the click is coming from some misalignment of the connecting rods, caused by the gear pushing down on the wheel. First thing to try would be to get the gear mesh right.

Originally posted by scsshaggy - January 12 2021 :  1:01:27 PM

How exactly would you do that? The gears seem to mesh alright when I spin it by hand. I'm kinda curious about the shim thing, though. How exactly would you do that? Just get some little washers or something?

Originally posted by kovacste000 - January 12 2021 :  3:09:23 PM



Slips of paper
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kovacste000
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 Posted - January 12 2021 :  9:04:06 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add kovacste000 to Buddylist
quote:
quote:
quote:
I had one of those, once where the gear mesh was too tight and put a little shim between the gear box and the frame. It wasn't much of a shim, but just enough to put the weight on the bearings rather than on the gear. Before the shim was there, the gears were carrying the weight of the engine, and the wheels were not level with each other. It's possible that the click is coming from some misalignment of the connecting rods, caused by the gear pushing down on the wheel. First thing to try would be to get the gear mesh right.

Originally posted by scsshaggy - January 12 2021 :  1:01:27 PM

How exactly would you do that? The gears seem to mesh alright when I spin it by hand. I'm kinda curious about the shim thing, though. How exactly would you do that? Just get some little washers or something?

Originally posted by kovacste000 - January 12 2021 :  3:09:23 PM



Slips of paper

Originally posted by BlaxlandAlex3 - January 12 2021 :  3:21:22 PM

I’m assuming you just put them on all around the screws and all that? Do you fold the paper or just put it as cut?

-Steve

"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
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BlaxlandAlex3
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Jupiterpfp2

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 Posted - January 12 2021 :  9:37:51 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add BlaxlandAlex3 to Buddylist
Yep!
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scsshaggy
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 Posted - January 12 2021 :  11:29:57 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add scsshaggy to Buddylist
Whether you fold the paper depends on how many layers it takes to get the right mesh, which will be a trial and error job.
Carpe Manana!
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Chops124
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 Posted - January 12 2021 :  11:34:18 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Chops124 to Buddylist
Good to see you again, Steven. Whaddya running these days?
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kovacste000
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 Posted - January 13 2021 :  02:11:37 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add kovacste000 to Buddylist
quote:
Good to see you again, Steven. Whaddya running these days?

Originally posted by Chops124 - January 12 2021 :  11:34:18 PM

I've recently installed a more permanent N scale layout and got some new locomotives and stuff from places like Switzerland and Japan. I still try to run most, if not, all of my locos from time to time.

-Steve

"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
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kovacste000
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 Posted - January 13 2021 :  03:52:44 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add kovacste000 to Buddylist
Update on the pacific. It runs better now that I've started putting shims into it. I can now actually screw in the two back screws into the gearbox without the engine having issues because of it. However, it is still wheel slipping on my curves, but it has improved substantially (it makes it over it basically every time).
-Steve

"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
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scsshaggy
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 Posted - January 13 2021 :  10:34:49 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add scsshaggy to Buddylist
quote:
However, it is still wheel slipping on my curves, but it has improved substantially.
Originally posted by kovacste000 - January 13 2021 :  03:52:44 AM


These are usually stump pullers. Unless there's something obvious like a steep grade or a really heavy train, I'd set it on the flattest piece of straight track you have and check if it's sitting down level on the track. If it rocks on the center drivers so that either the front or back pair is off the rail, you may need a little more shimming. It's possible that you've raised the worm enough that it's not binding up, but not enough to let the center bearings down onto the axle.

Carpe Manana!
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kovacste000
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 Posted - January 13 2021 :  2:17:16 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add kovacste000 to Buddylist
quote:
quote:
However, it is still wheel slipping on my curves, but it has improved substantially.
Originally posted by kovacste000 - January 13 2021 :  03:52:44 AM


These are usually stump pullers. Unless there's something obvious like a steep grade or a really heavy train, I'd set it on the flattest piece of straight track you have and check if it's sitting down level on the track. If it rocks on the center drivers so that either the front or back pair is off the rail, you may need a little more shimming. It's possible that you've raised the worm enough that it's not binding up, but not enough to let the center bearings down onto the axle.

Originally posted by scsshaggy - January 13 2021 :  10:34:49 AM

Yeah, I'm planning on putting some more shims on the gearbox. All I do know is that I'm getting closer and closer to solving the problem.

-Steve

"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
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BlaxlandAlex3
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 Posted - January 13 2021 :  2:52:28 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add BlaxlandAlex3 to Buddylist
I don't understand why the locomotive would just suddenly start having issues, did you change anything on it before you started having issues?
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kovacste000
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 Posted - January 13 2021 :  4:14:49 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add kovacste000 to Buddylist
quote:
I don't understand why the locomotive would just suddenly start having issues, did you change anything on it before you started having issues?

Originally posted by BlaxlandAlex3 - January 13 2021 :  2:52:28 PM

It had these issues ever since I got it back from a hobby shop I got it repaired at a few years ago. I brought it out, put some fresh lubricant into it, and ran it. It was having the exact same issues it had when I got it back. So, what I ended up doing, thinking it was a problem with the back drive wheel since it was literally glued onto the axle, I bought a new one off of Ebay. Didn't really change much, really. So, in other words, whatever that hobby shop did to this thing caused it to have the issues it's having, it seems.

-Steve

"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
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BlaxlandAlex3
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Jupiterpfp2

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 Posted - January 14 2021 :  09:30:15 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add BlaxlandAlex3 to Buddylist
quote:
quote:
I don't understand why the locomotive would just suddenly start having issues, did you change anything on it before you started having issues?

Originally posted by BlaxlandAlex3 - January 13 2021 :  2:52:28 PM

It had these issues ever since I got it back from a hobby shop I got it repaired at a few years ago. I brought it out, put some fresh lubricant into it, and ran it. It was having the exact same issues it had when I got it back. So, what I ended up doing, thinking it was a problem with the back drive wheel since it was literally glued onto the axle, I bought a new one off of Ebay. Didn't really change much, really. So, in other words, whatever that hobby shop did to this thing caused it to have the issues it's having, it seems.

Originally posted by kovacste000 - January 13 2021 :  4:14:49 PM



Disassemble the entire locomotive. thorougly clean every component. re assmble.
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kovacste000
Big Boy



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 Posted - November 06 2021 :  04:15:03 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add kovacste000 to Buddylist
Okay, so I finally got down to actually cleaning the thing. I cleaned everything, and I mean everything, especially as far as what meshes with various parts. I put it all back together, and it runs extremely slow at high power and with the sound of something slipping (sounds like the type of sound rubber makes with friction or something). Turns out, a part of the motor shaft is made out of rubber. What piece am I talking about? Well, part 8592 and/or 8593 according to some 1955 Mantua Pacific instructions from HOseeker.

Basically, that rubber part there appears to be drying out (certain parts of it have evidently began to deteriorate, as it feels dry and brittle). I also noticed that it takes a bit of force to turn it by hand, so that would explain the worryingly slow running, as the motor is working hard to try to turn that old rubber part, as, again, it's gotten dried out over time. So, the good news is that I think I've narrowed down the problem!The bad news is... it's a tricky part to find a proper replacement for, considering the drive system of this thing.Although, saying that... I think I may be able to find some rubber tubing meant for brass locos which could work...Edit: I just realized that after I removed the shims, the gear was harder to turn when testing that part on its own. Now, I'm sure the rubber is still a part of the problem, but I may have to find some proper shims...

-Steve

"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."

Edited by - kovacste000 on November 06 2021 04:41:12 AM
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scsshaggy
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scsshaggy

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 Posted - November 06 2021 :  08:36:47 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add scsshaggy to Buddylist
I have a similar mechanism, and the shims are important. On mine, the worm and gear actually push down the center drive axle and lift the locomotive if I don't have the shims on the gear box.

For a flexible shaft, model airplane fuel line works very well. It won't be original nor look the same, but it's available and may actually work better.

Carpe Manana!
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kovacste000
Big Boy



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 Posted - November 06 2021 :  11:05:20 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add kovacste000 to Buddylist
quote:
I have a similar mechanism, and the shims are important. On mine, the worm and gear actually push down the center drive axle and lift the locomotive if I don't have the shims on the gear box.

For a flexible shaft, model airplane fuel line works very well. It won't be original nor look the same, but it's available and may actually work better.

Originally posted by scsshaggy - November 06 2021 :  08:36:47 AM

About that... I found out that I was actually putting those round brass bearings in the slots wrong. There's little indents that they're supposed to go into. So, I fixed that as soon as I saw that, and would you look at that! The motor spins much more freely altogether!However... it still slips like crazy on the slightly inclined curves on parts of my layout. My guess now is the rubber tubing that goes between the motor and the gearbox, but I can't say for certain.

-Steve

"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."

Edited by - kovacste000 on November 06 2021 11:06:13 AM
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kovacste000
Big Boy



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 Posted - November 07 2021 :  02:11:43 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add kovacste000 to Buddylist
So, okay, I just purchased one of these rubber tubings. Seems like it has really good reviews and hopefully this will do the trick in regards to a replacement drive shaft. Then, (fingers crossed) this lovely loco should hopefully be 100% operable again.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/324691677559

-Steve

"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."

Edited by - kovacste000 on November 07 2021 02:13:13 AM
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toptrain
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 Posted - November 07 2021 :  09:36:01 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add toptrain to Buddylist
You say it stops and your wheels keep spining then the gears are meshing! If it was a drive gear with missing teeth, or whatever cracked is, it would stop and the motor would keep spinning. I would first check train board and the track. It could be dipping down when the loco passes over it, or be tilted in the wrong direction. Real railroads raise the outer track in turns to improve traction.
frank

toptrain

" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
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