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 Posted - July 24 2020 : 5:29:48 PM
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***Disclaimer: This post does not chronicle the variants of each F9A per livery (say Santa Fe,) as that is another subject entirely.***
Tyco's powered F9 locomotive was first released at the beginning of the 1960's with the introduction of the "Red Box Era," and lasted through to the end of Tyco Trains history. Such a popular locomotive design, and one of my favorites from Tyco, certainly had an interesting number of variations depending on specific road, but most notable are the following 3 specific MAJOR shell designs or "phases" of the F9 A-unit.
Up first is the original, and by far the best, F9A design - featuring all 6 stepladders, and excellent detail. This is supposedly a copy or close imitation of the Globe F9 kits of the 1950's, and Tyco couldn't have done better with such a design - even if it was technically an F7 model in terms of length and all that fancy stuff. This design lasted from the inception of the Tyco F9 until the early "Brown Box Era."
Also, the first Tyco F9's featured screw-in trucks (front & rear) and fuel tank weight cover.
Shortly after, it seemed that Tyco kept the shell design the same, but then changed the truck design (1st they made the rear truck "pop-in," then the weight cover, and lastly the front truck.) Here's proof of that - this Burlington Northern F9A is a hybrid, it features a screw-in front truck, but pop-in weight cover and rear truck.
**By the way, that "Blue Bonnet" F9A, the 1st picture, is actually a hybrid as well. Note that the rear truck is pop-in, but the fuel tank weight cover and front truck are BOTH screw in.**
Around 1974ish, as the "Brown Box Era" picked up steam, Tyco changed the shell over completely to pop-in trucks and fuel tank weight cover, and deleted the front 2 stepladders for a time. Here's an example, with this "no-front step" version of the Union Pacific F9.
The last, and final design of the F9A shell occurred shortly thereafter, and was implemented for the rest of the "Brown Box Era." It featured 6 "chunky" stepladders, 2 "railings" molded into the plastic on top of the roof near the horn area, and cross-stitching, if you will, in the side air vents. Also, these F9's received nose number boards, and a tall solid weight piece that was secured in plastic tube inside the locomotive, and is Not snap in.
At first, these F9's got "revamped" MU-2 motors, if you will, (with some being produced by AHM in Austria) and upgraded truck covers. Later models got the PowerTorque motor.
  
Original F9 truck cover
2nd truck cover design
Original F9 air vent design
3rd version air vent design
Tyco's F9 B-unit did not undergo any major shell changes, except in the transition from screw-in trucks and fuel tank cover to pop-ins later on, for some of them.
In conclusion, these are the 3 MAJOR phases of Tyco's F9 A-unit shell - in truth, there were more, if you count the shells with screw-in trucks / fuel tank weight cover vs. pop-in, and this is merely scratching the surface of variety in Tyco's F9's, as each road they were produced in had variations in the paint/lettering/numbering.
While we're on the subject, what about Mantua's F9's which were released in the 1980's, when Mantua officially seperated their name from Tyco and started their own train line. Yes, the later "diecast" Mantua F9's had open front coupler pilots...
But the original Mantua F9's looked almost identical to Tyco's 1st major shell phase, except for 1 little detail. Notice on this Mantua Great Northern F9A, that the stepladders all have a little "bump" at the top of them where they were molded onto the shell. The original Tyco design does not and never featured this. This is really the only difference between the 2, in terms of shells. At first, Mantua's F9's featured the infamous MU-2 motor, but the bottom plates were screw-on, not riveted-on like the Tyco's were, which they looked almost identical to. The "open-pilot" Mantua F9's produced in the early 1990's, had Mantua's flywheel driven motor and diecast frame assembly, so they were completely different.
  
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Posted - July 24 2020 : 6:26:59 PM
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Wow! Quite the documentary! Goingincirclez is jealous! 
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Posted - July 26 2020 : 09:00:12 AM
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RP, does Tyco refer to these locos as F9s?
They have the outwork appearance of F7s with their porthole/side vent configuration. Just curious thanks.
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Posted - July 26 2020 : 7:38:51 PM
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Thanks Alex!
Crown Vic, yes, Tyco sold these locomotives as F9's, even though they were technically F7's. In truth, there were little differences between the real F7 and F9, except that the F9 had more horsepower and was a few feet longer I believe.
Tyco did produce a special line of these, with the original MU-2 motors, as "deluxe F7's," during the Brown Box Era. I see no way to distinguish their F7's from the popular F9's....so the "deluxe" must just have been a fancy name they gave them at one point, to a certain line as documented here: http://tycotrain.tripod.com/tycobrownboxdiesels/id86.html
Here is a "real" F7 in the EMD demonstrator scheme (credit to original photographer)
Here is a "real" F9 for the ATSF (credit to original photographer)
There is just 1 extra vent in front of the front porthole, as far as I can tell. Otherwise, they look identical in design.
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in Heaven." - Matthew 5:16
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Edited by - RP model railroads on July 26 2020 7:40:27 PM
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Posted - July 27 2020 : 12:53:39 AM
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| I was under the impression that the Fs with plastic MU2s and the single post screw-mounted fuel tank were the deluxe engines. The PT powered engines were the standard F9. Did the PT powered engines have fuel tanks that snapped in, or were there any with the single post screw-mount? Either way, excellent break-down!
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Posted - July 27 2020 : 01:26:01 AM
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I just went and had a dig through my junk boxes. There was only one PT F9 and it had a snap in fuel tank. Interestingly, I found a pair of dummy A-units from the 1960s/MU-2 era. They each had body notches for the rear truck, but the dummy trucks were screwed in leaving the body notches empty. I also found a dummy unit with the front step-ladder delete. It had the rear truck snapped in to the body notches, but the screw tubes were obviously still present.
Engines with empty notches and screw in trucks:
Engine with step-ladder delete and snap-in trucks:
I know this whole thing is a rabbit hole, but wanted to share my findings.
Edited by - DaCheez on July 27 2020 01:27:58 AM
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Posted - July 27 2020 : 08:10:45 AM
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From what I know, the later PowerTorque F9's had snap-in plastic weights, while the later MU-2 variants featured the single-screw tube weight.  Although the "deluxe F7's" featured the MU-2 motor, so did the F9's from the same era (what I like to call the "new" MU-2 motors, of which some featured AHM parts.)
Yes, your finds regarding your F9's are similar to mine. The "hybrid" locos which feature a snap-in rear truck, but screw-in front truck, still have the screw-in tubes inside the rear-truck area, where the rear truck could logically also be screwed in. Which is why I like to call them "hybrids," as apparently Tyco used the same mold to make the shells and then over time, phased out the screw-in trucks for snap-in trucks. That's why I identified 3 major variations of Tyco's F9 shells, but in truth, there are more than 6 different variants (if you count those with snap-in rear truck, snap-in weight cover, or snap-in front truck.)
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in Heaven." - Matthew 5:16
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Posted - July 27 2020 : 10:42:36 AM
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| Rabbit holes make the world go 'round.
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Posted - July 27 2020 : 11:18:02 AM
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In the real world, there were little if any visual cues that could be counted on to verify a particular model. Railroads constantly upgraded with each service, and a F3 on the outside could be a F7 on the inside.
BUT...the rule of thumb for F7/F9 identification is this:
F7- intake vent behind first porthole
F9- intake vent in front of first porthole
In E-units, Model Power marketed a E9 that was identical to E8 models they had offered. I guess whatever they think will sell the most.
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Posted - July 27 2020 : 3:14:02 PM
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quote:In the real world, there were little if any visual cues that could be counted on to verify a particular model. Railroads constantly upgraded with each service, and a F3 on the outside could be a F7 on the inside.
BUT...the rule of thumb for F7/F9 identification is this:
F7- intake vent behind first porthole
F9- intake vent in front of first porthole
In E-units, Model Power marketed a E9 that was identical to E8 models they had offered. I guess whatever they think will sell the most.
Originally posted by Crown Vic-July 27 2020: 11:18:02 AM
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100% agreed. And yeah, that was definitely the reason why Tyco sold them as "F9's"
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in Heaven." - Matthew 5:16
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Posted - May 01 2024 : 11:01:08 AM
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Just came across this old thread; very interesting indeed.
I may have mentioned before that my first "scale" locomotive was one of those first issue F units, also in the SF Freight scheme (it came with matching caboose, a Kahn's Reefer and something else...perhaps a gondola). I remember it being very difficult to get those spring-loaded screws re-attached!
As I am in the process of "re-discovering" HO (after 30+ years of 2 rail O scale), I have acquired a couple examples of these, just for "old time sake", and find the original drive to be a little better than the second kind (with the clip-in power truck) and both of those are MUCH better than the later plastic "pancake" type, which is pretty poor in my estimation...FWIW.
Anyway, there it is.
Mark in Oregon
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Posted - May 01 2024 : 4:38:38 PM
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Regarding the E8/E9: the real ones were externally identical. The main difference was a slight upgrade in horsepower.
The F9s were another story altogether. True, built new F9s were relatively rare, and had the features mentioned. By the time then F( was introduced, freight cab units were no longer in demand, the GP7 and GP9 havign proven themselves as more versatile and easier to work on. But EMD was offering wreck rebuilds of older units, and in cases where the wrecked unit was too far gone what parts could be salvaged were used in a built new F9 body. Around this time, the earliest F units were beginning to show their age. WHile many railroads opted to trade these units in on newer hood type units (almost all GP20s were built with traded in F unit parts, there were a few railroads that opted to have their older units refurbished by EMD instead. These usually featured the lower horsepower rating of the original locomotive, but the body itself contained many parts that made them look like f9s on the outside. Union Pacific and Southern Pacific were big users of these rebuilds.
The wreck rebuild units were by far the most interesting, as they were usually one offs hidden among a roster of F7 and F3 types. Alot of railroads had them, but unless you looked over photos for an entire number series, or had access to EMD builders records you'd be unlikely to find them easily. Railroads known to have rostered these one offs include ACL, Burlington, C&O, KCS and Wabash.
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