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 Posted - May 23 2018 : 08:55:37 AM
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post 1
About a week ago I received from Bond 007 some Info on this depot. From this new info and other that I have found, construction can start on the NJRR depot 1841. This is a 4 day catch up as to where i am now.
Frank
The locomotive maintenance area lithograph. From a 1841 map.
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on May 22 2021 06:32:58 AM
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Posted - May 23 2018 : 09:20:36 AM
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post 2
Remarkable lithograph. A lot of historical precedents in that .
image.
Chops more to come. Allot more.
Moderator.
frank
My edit of your post.
Edited by - toptrain on June 25 2018 07:10:40 AM
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Posted - May 23 2018 : 09:26:06 AM
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post 3
I will permanently build this on a appropriately sized piece of 1/8 inch finished plywood.
Then draw building footprints.
frank
* Roundhouse and turntable; A problem in exact replication exists here. Both the roundhouse and turntable are shown in the print to be small. The turntable is less than 40 feet in diameter, and the roundhouse stalls only 50 feet deep. Now the locomotives being produced at this time easily fit into these dimensions. In 1838 when this railroad was in complete operation, running steam powered trains the entire length of the railroad using these new small locomotives of the time, I can see no need for wider turntables or deeper roundhouse stalls. As a historian I do know that before 10 years of operating, locomotives will be arriving that are too large to fit on or in either structure. Never mind what size locomotives will be arriving during and after the civil war. I have made my turntable larger to turn the older 4-4-0 type engines. A Tyco 4-4-0 just barely fits into the roundhouse. I have 5 or 6 of them i can use.
* With the turntable here in the north east having a open pit type just doesn't work well. They cause way to much work clearing snow out of the pit in the winter. Completely covered turntable pits are used. My covered turntable is one I had already, making it my choice.
* Back to the turntable. On post three you see the original footprint I drew of the buildings and turntable. The turntable is a 40 foot one and the first back wall a 50 ' deep roundhouse stall. If I had 6 or 7 HO scale period locomotives It would have been practical to use this small round house. I only have 1 complete one. A DeWitt Clinton. I do have just the locomotive for the John Bull. I do have 6 or 7 Tyco Generals. I can rework a couple of these into early and late Morris, Rogers, or Baldwin 4-2-0 types. Now when you look at post three's drawing and see the tyco general sitting inside the footprint of a expanded back wall stall you should know why I chose a 65' deep roundhouse. I chose the larger turntable because i am not able to make the track work necessary to connect 9 tracks to so small a turntable. Of 18 separate rails going to the table 16 must cross others just before connecting at the turntable.
Machine shop;
Car Manufactory building, for building and maintenance of rolling stock.
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on June 25 2018 06:56:45 AM
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Posted - May 23 2018 : 09:32:27 AM
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post 4
This is the combined roundhouse, machine shop, locomotive erecting and repairing building, in a nice clean and clear photo.
When i trimmed down and fastened about 1/8' scrap wood to make foundation. Making the curve took extra work and time. It took 2 strings on track nails, one inside and the other outside the curbing to hold it in place till the glue dried. I didn't take chances and let it dry overnight.
frank
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on June 25 2018 07:16:28 AM
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Posted - May 23 2018 : 11:21:22 AM
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| Wow! Nice!!
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Posted - May 23 2018 : 11:46:08 AM
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| Awesome project Frank and it looks like you've got a solid start on it. I will certainly be looking forward to watching this build.
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Posted - May 23 2018 : 1:59:45 PM
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Awesome craftsmanship!!!
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in Heaven." - Matthew 5:16
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Posted - May 23 2018 : 4:44:37 PM
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post 8
* Well be prepared for some bad looking buildings.This is not the new bad which is good, but the old bad that is really bad.
frank
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on June 25 2018 07:11:56 AM
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Posted - May 24 2018 : 4:13:19 PM
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post 9
The next thing I've done is to make the Roundhouse entrance doors and surrounding walls which make the front of the building.
frank
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on June 25 2018 07:17:24 AM
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Posted - May 29 2018 : 6:06:18 PM
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post 10
* Well a few walls are appearing now. Lots of windows used already. I am using a light tan just like what I think I am seen on the lithograph. This isn"t a shake the box and squirt some glue kit every part with exception on the personnel doors and windows. All the big pairs of doors need to be handmade along with their frames. I have shaped cut out the 9 pairs of roundhouse doors already. I still need to make 6 more walls. Find more windows. The curved roundhouse peaked roof will be hard to do! It will get done, definitely not in a short time.
just me, frank
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on June 25 2018 07:17:54 AM
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Posted - May 29 2018 : 6:41:21 PM
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Coming along nicely, Toptrain! Keep up the great work.
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in Heaven." - Matthew 5:16
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Posted - May 29 2018 : 8:24:21 PM
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| This is going to be amazing.
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Posted - May 30 2018 : 07:53:02 AM
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post 13
* Bob, Jeff, your both very helpful to me with your kind comments. I will try to make something good. I am lucky in that these two first buildings are early industrial types made to be more useful and practical then decorative
architectural structures. This company, the New Jersey Rail Road & Transportation Co. wasn't well funded, just was the right business in the right place at the right time. Though there stock didn't sell to the public. The service they provided was very successful and profitable. Ridership increases and the profits generated were put right back into the company. Always improving the first spartan designs. The large simply built train shed and a few years later the again simply designed head house were embellished to become a depot of Greco- Roman design. Pleasant for the riding public using the Depot and those seeing the Depot on the Jersey City shore line from the opposite bank of the Hudson in New York City.
Today I'll work on the walls that will hold up what I have now standing, before they fall down.
frank
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on June 25 2018 07:43:40 AM
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Posted - May 30 2018 : 1:17:02 PM
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I hope you will include a horse or two, as seen in the lithograph.
This was a spectacular transmission from horse power to steam
power. It must have been an age of wonders to those who lived
it.
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Posted - May 30 2018 : 2:33:03 PM
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| Great project. Which type of turntable are you going to install there? "A" Frame or Gallows??
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Posted - May 30 2018 : 8:44:32 PM
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| Nice thoughtful work Frank.
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Posted - May 30 2018 : 8:54:20 PM
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post 17
quote:Great project. Which type of turntable are you going to install there? "A" Frame or Gallows??
Originally posted by oldtimer52Â -Â May 30 2018Â :Â 2:33:03 PM
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Armstrong turntable. push powered. It is a Kirbi turntable. You can see it in around 3 pictures. I added another wall. A short one.
still just frank.
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on June 25 2018 07:44:35 AM
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Posted - May 31 2018 : 01:31:24 AM
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Frank, I've tried windows. Ended looking like a bad
child's drawing of a house. How in the blue blazes
did you get those windows??? They are immaculate.
Those arched doors are stunning, in and of themselves.
And the trim. How the @$%@#% did you pull that off???
Even the hinges look like they were beat on the anvil
of a 1/87 blacksmith.
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Posted - May 31 2018 : 07:39:08 AM
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post 19
quote:Frank, I've tried windows. Ended looking like a bad
child's drawing of a house. How in the blue blazes
did you get those windows??? They are immaculate.
Those arched doors are stunning, in and of themselves.
And the trim. How the @$%@#% did you pull that off???
Even the hinges look like they were beat on the anvil
of a 1/87 blacksmith.
Originally posted by Chops124Â -Â May 31 2018Â :Â 01:31:24 AM
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*Cheep kits and built up and broken buildings at train shows and kits friends traded to me, supplied the windows so far. They are actually 3 different ones, all came with kits. They are so very close in size and detail they look the same until you look close. Some are double hung and some aren't. The arched doors are wood ones I made. I am sure I have enough for the rest of the 2 story part But the addition going to the right is one story, for special machine shop tools, supply room, and small offices for shop managers. On this part I may have to do some imaginative work to finish it.
Jeff thanks again for the nice comments.
Sill just frank.
Did you ever work with real thin wood sheets. It takes pencil marks well. It leaves a dented line in the wood and
the blade follows this indented line.This thin wood cuts with a sharp exato no.11 blade very easily.
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on June 25 2018 07:45:14 AM
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Posted - May 31 2018 : 11:45:27 AM
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WHOA! Nice craftsmanship!
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in Heaven." - Matthew 5:16
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Posted - May 31 2018 : 6:39:24 PM
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post 21
* Well What ever I do takes a long time. Cutting and shaping takes some time , but not a lot of time. Gluing things is the time consuming thing. Also regluing whatever came apart. So here is my day's accomplishments.
still just frank.
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on June 25 2018 07:45:48 AM
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Posted - June 06 2018 : 8:50:20 PM
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post 22
Here is an updated photo showing the other 2 machine shop walls added Locomotive manufactory building.
frank
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on June 25 2018 07:46:23 AM
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Posted - June 07 2018 : 12:48:41 AM
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That's a really interesting addition. One forgets that these guys had
to pretty much make every single extra piece from scratch, short
of having an iron foundry.
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Posted - June 07 2018 : 08:05:46 AM
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quote:That's a really interesting addition. One forgets that these guys had to pretty much make every single extra piece from scratch, short of having an iron foundry.
Originally posted by Chops124Â -Â June 07 2018Â :Â 12:48:41 AM
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Some shops had an iron foundry. I toured the one on the East Broad Top, and saw a guy making sand molds for brake shoes in the Sonsonate, El Salvador railroad shops.
Even with the foundry, you'll still do a lot of machining. Many castings get some machining and many parts are just machined from bar stock and not cast.
Carpe Manana!
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Posted - June 07 2018 : 09:47:23 AM
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| I didn't know that scsshaggy, thanks!
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Posted - June 07 2018 : 09:53:51 AM
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post 26
Well Don and Jeff, it would seem that like flies to carcisuses, Iron works and founders were appearing in Jersey city.
frank
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on June 25 2018 07:46:54 AM
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Posted - June 07 2018 : 1:05:43 PM
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A most interesting explanation. Where did the ore come from and
what sort of early ore car was used? What early coal cars were
used to transport the coal? I see a water front, by barge?
Can you imagine the labor needed to unload raw iron ore,
forget about the coal? And where did the resulting mountain
of slag and ash end up?
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Posted - June 07 2018 : 3:18:39 PM
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Frank, if you need a plan for your "Armstrong" turntable (name for longer version of Gallows) I have one from the
January 1948 "The Model Craftsman" magazine. If you would like a copy, give me a pm and I'll get you
one.
George
Edited by - oldtimer52 on June 07 2018 3:38:28 PM
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Posted - June 08 2018 : 3:41:23 PM
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post 29
quote:A most interesting explanation. Where did the ore come from and
what sort of early ore car was used? What early coal cars were
used to transport the coal? I see a water front, by barge?
Can you imagine the labor needed to unload raw iron ore,
forget about the coal? And where did the resulting mountain
of slag and ash end up?
Originally posted by Chops124Â -Â June 07 2018Â :Â 1:05:43 PM
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Don I really don't know for sure. They, the NJRR&TCo. were handling coal before 1840. I would guess that the Lehigh River canals and a little later on the L&S Rail Road brought the coal down from mines in north eastern Pennsylvania to Easton PA. From there canals would bring the coal to Trenton NJ. The Delaware and Raritan Canal could bring the caol to New Brunswick and the New Jersey Railroad and Transportation Company would haul it from there to Jersey City. I am sure you have seen the little wooden coal Jinneys. That is what was used to haul oar of many kinds on railroads right into the 1920's. Iron Ore is plentiful and mined for many years here in New Jersey along with copper and other minerals. A lot of iron Oar was mined right over the NJ state border in Rockland and Orange county.
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on June 25 2018 07:47:28 AM
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Posted - June 08 2018 : 3:57:32 PM
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quote:Frank, if you need a plan for your "Armstrong" turntable (name for longer version of Gallows) I have one from the
January 1948 "The Model Craftsman" magazine. If you would like a copy, give me a pm and I'll get you
one.
George
Originally posted by oldtimer52Â -Â June 07 2018Â :Â 3:18:39 PM
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Hi George. Getting a copy of the turntable would be nice. Thank you for the offer.
frank
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
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Posted - June 08 2018 : 8:44:53 PM
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post 31
* My first try at making a roundhouse with a circular wall. This will be the rear wall. Front walls that face the turntable can't be curved. I will make no attempt to make the front wall curved. Here is a photo of where i am right now. I am done for the day.
frank
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on June 25 2018 07:47:58 AM
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Posted - June 09 2018 : 06:34:10 AM
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WOW! Nice work, toptrain!!
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in Heaven." - Matthew 5:16
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Posted - June 09 2018 : 09:20:12 AM
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Agree, RP, this is one of the coolest things in a long time.
First generation steam is such an amazing period of time.
I go back and look at that lithograph and ponder the horse
looking over his shoulder. The World had never seen this
sort of revolution of thought and of labor ever, ever before.
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Posted - June 09 2018 : 7:47:54 PM
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post 34
* Got some framing done but not complete. Now I have decided to change the front. Removing the front posts and rafters to replace the front posts with new ones notched like the rear ones to accept a continuous top front beam. This will better align all the tops of the front posts. Also I will use front posts a little thinner than those shown here, to enlarge the door openings.
frank
 
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on June 25 2018 07:48:28 AM
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Posted - June 09 2018 : 7:50:30 PM
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Very Cool!!
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in Heaven." - Matthew 5:16
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Posted - June 09 2018 : 9:20:06 PM
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Things are really starting to take shape.
Carpe Manana!
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Posted - June 09 2018 : 11:35:37 PM
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Toptrain,
This looks great. Keep up the good work. I'm trying to figure out how that curved beam stays in place. Did you wet a straight piece of wood, shape and let it dry so it is curved and all you have to do is glue it in place, or did you use nails?
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Posted - June 10 2018 : 06:35:03 AM
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post 38
quote:Toptrain,
This looks great. Keep up the good work. I'm trying to figure out how that curved beam stays in place. Did you wet a straight piece of wood, shape and let it dry so it is curved and all you have to do is glue it in place, or did you use nails?
Originally posted by Brian4321Â -Â June 09 2018Â :Â 11:35:37 PM
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BRIAN I SOAKED IT IN VERY HOT WATER. I hope when it dries out that it keeps its shape. I am thinking about drilling through the board and into the beams behind across to the front on all 9 posts. Then pushing small nails in the lock every post to the curved beam.
frank
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on June 25 2018 07:49:08 AM
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Posted - June 10 2018 : 10:32:30 AM
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Frank,
That's some beautiful workmanship you're executing on a very interesting prototype. I can't say I've ever seen an arangement like take.
Master Of Plasticville
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Posted - June 12 2018 : 07:52:39 AM
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post 40
*Guys, the curved beam acted just like a bow wanting to straighten itself out. It broke free to two side walls and everything just came apart and fell down. I am going back to my first very complicated front wall of many parts fitted together. It won't spring apart. I can after I build it, then it slide it into the front opening in one piece. That is with all the doors on. I may even make them, the doors, to swing open and shut if my patient’s doesn’t run out.
*Still Just Frank
edit added photo6-17-18 Pictured before by last repair
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on June 25 2018 07:50:06 AM
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Posted - June 12 2018 : 11:51:53 AM
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| Ouch. It must have been painful to see the beam pop off and take the supports with it. Please don't give up as this will be a really nifty part of your layout. Another option, assuming you have enough wood, is to cut the beam to the curve specifications.
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Posted - June 19 2018 : 2:51:38 PM
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post 42
* And so after a few bad ideas I had a good one. I took some very thin wood and cut 2 strips the with of the destructive strip. It curved very easily. S i glued one in it set and then overlaid the first one with second to give it thickness.
frank
a photo from 30 minuted ago; south-west corner.
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on June 25 2018 07:50:38 AM
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Posted - June 19 2018 : 2:57:51 PM
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* I had to realign and reglue part of the back curved wall shorting it.
frank
north-west view;
toptrain
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Posted - June 19 2018 : 3:01:32 PM
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post 44
* Here is the building from the west.
frank
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on June 25 2018 07:51:09 AM
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Posted - June 19 2018 : 3:05:21 PM
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* I had to replace with a new beam the top of the south roundhouse wall. I now get a break while the glue dries everywhere.
* Next will be the rear curved wall. I only shave shorter pieces of cardstock left. To remove the seam I will uae paper long enough to cover the distance and glue it to my short pieces making one big piece. once dry and workable I'll curve it around the builtup framing and mark the center of all 7 sections (stalls). Then the real hard work starts making flat windows look correct in a curved wall. I have 2 ideas already
frank
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on June 19 2018 3:29:29 PM
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Posted - June 19 2018 : 4:49:01 PM
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post 46
* Here are the 4 views of the Locomotive Manufactory Building. Before I start on the back and front walls of the roundhouse section.
frank
1-This is the roundhouse front view from the west;
2-This is from the south-west
3-This is the from the north
4-This is from the North-west
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on June 25 2018 07:51:49 AM
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Posted - June 19 2018 : 5:01:12 PM
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Wow!! That looks fantastic!
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in Heaven." - Matthew 5:16
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Posted - June 19 2018 : 5:03:03 PM
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quote:Well Don and Jeff, it would seem that like flies to carcisuses, Iron works and founders were appearing in Jersey city.
frank
Originally posted by toptrain - June 07 2018 : 09:53:51 AM
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I wonder what this area looks like NOW! hehe 
Edited by - microbusss on June 19 2018 5:03:34 PM
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Posted - June 19 2018 : 8:53:40 PM
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| Neat to watch this come along Frank. Nice work and engineering.
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Posted - June 20 2018 : 12:00:48 AM
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toptrain,
VERY nice. Keep up the good work!!!
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Posted - June 20 2018 : 10:25:41 AM
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post 51
*** Problems, problems, problems! It comes with the fact this is no kit pre designed by a very much better equipped, professional model builder, with great information on the building he is making a kit for. My problems are nothing as compared to the engineering challenges faced by the engineers who designed and built this first railroad from Powels Heck on the west bank of the North River in East Jersey as it was known then, to New Brunswick.
** Just think of what happened and what this engineer was thinking. Man this guy probably attended an engineering school or was trained by the people who have been building the first railways in England. He most likely was given to view a ruff drawn map of the proposed route and he seen his assignment included building a railway across miles of swamps, 3 rivers to cross and Bergen Hill as his main problems. His first section of the railroad to build is from Powel’s Heck to the City of Newark, the hill being the most difficult obstruction, He thinks, the next the two rivers. Well, the Patterson and Hudson River Railroad have already bridged the Hackensack River, how bad an obstacle can the rivers be. So the young engineer and his group get in the carriage for the trip up hill. The driver takes them to a viewing place called “Point of Rocks”. On the way up the carriage road follows a cut into the rock of Bergen Hill. This will be the route of the cut his workers must excavate for the line of tracks up and over the hill. Now at Point of Rocks he views Powel’s Heck and the ferry to New York City. It is high tide in the North River and Powel’s Heck is but an island connected to the land by a road and bridge. Many small islands are seen to the west and north where both the railroad tracks and the depot must be constructed. Most of the acres are underwater. These islands are dotted with trees and shacks, fisherman shacks! Seen at low tide all these islands are connected by roadways which the tide covers. A major problem not known has to do with the swamp the road must cross on the west side of the Hackensack River and between this river and the Passaic River. The road that appears on the map as straight but it winds back and forth through the swamp, connecting many high points and filling in between. The railroad must go straight across. The excavation has been going on for a while now the rocks and fill removed is being used by dumping it in the swamp to build a base for tracks. At the end of the day a big pile of rocks is seen on top of the swamp. This is good BUT next morning the rocks have disappeared. Well just put more in, is the contractors answerer to this problem. This goes on and on. The problem becomes a dilemma. Flooding occurs even after a small rain fall. This dumping must stop. After some time this problem disappears and the river starts acting normal again All the fill now has been piled up and stored on land with most going over to the river side of the hill and used as fill there. This isn’t made up but recorded in the railroads history in Bulletin 88 of the Railway and Locomotive Historical Society. Also in this History is the fact that this flooding reoccurred after the PRR took over the line and was widening the cut for more tracks. They also thought they could just throw their rocks and fill into the swamp.
* Now about those first 2 bridges they must build over the Hackensack and Passaic rivers. The rights to build bridges over the rivers were controlled by two different corporations and a third the newark turnpike claimed they controlled the right to build any kind of road to the City of Newark. They had monopolies on theses rights. The State of New Jersey gave them these rights. So right now they are stopped. They will lose their right to build this railroad unless something is worked out. The New Jersey Railroad had to make a deal with all 3 corporations. What they wound up doing was buy or trade stocks till they had control of all three corporations. Once that was done they were able to build across these 2 rivers and the swamp between. The problems just went on and on. You would think that the problems in building this less than 30 mile long railroad would have an end to them, but more Monopolies and Cities were waiting with their problems and and demands and still the engineering needed to excavate the cut, design and build three long bridges, and lay track across swamps all needed to be answered. Progress isn't easy, and it is expensive.
* Almost all here is Historical facts. The problems weren’t. They happened. I just embellished and condensed them into this story. This was not a easy railroad to build.
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on October 26 2019 08:45:06 AM
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