|
|
 Posted - October 03 2006 : 09:59:45 AM
|
"Most Common"
I concur with your humdrum additions--how could I have forgotten the NH plugdoor, I've probably got enough of the darned things to cobble a sidewalk.
The BM operating Hopper is an interesting choice, though. I agree absolutely it is the most common operating hopper livery but, given all operating hopper's relative scarcity and current popularity, it didn't spring immediately to mind... unless, of course, it is on a list of most-common red box:
BM op/hopper (most common red box hopper, absolutely, but if you want to sell me many for cheap I'll buy -em all day long)
Swift's Reefer
Kahn's Reefer
ANY skid flat but Southern RR (WM, GN, RI)
ATSF 8-wheel caboose
Burlington 8-wheel caboose (and for what, naturally?)
Burlington China-Red GP-20
4015 SF Warbonnet
Brunswick Green PRR EMD-F
ATSF Teal Stock Car
BM 40' regular series Box car
master-boxed sets also seem to have been liberally dosed with the very pretty NH in black--another common-but-so-what car from my perspective)
Republic Tanker
(and, again, super common in master box sets: Cities Service and
Diamond Chemical)
other candidates in red box?
MagnoliaAcademy
|
Country:  USA ~
Posts: 446 ~
Member Since: December 09 2005 ~
Last Visit: October 28 2006
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - October 13 2006 : 9:07:55 PM
|
OK, we have discussed most common, how about "rarest"
My nomination; PC F-9!
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 53 ~
Member Since: October 11 2006 ~
Last Visit: March 01 2007
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - October 13 2006 : 11:50:14 PM
|
While I feel "rarity" is a bit incompatible with Tyco's large production output, particularly with regard to Brown Box era stuff, a few suggestions:
Little Trains/Blue Box: GMO box car in yellow, lighted B&O caboose, T-10 fitted wooden box and set, Staley's tank, Silverama Set, E&H cars, RCA bopper (sold, perhaps, from broken-up Silverama sets)
Red Box era: Hercules powder tank, Brach's covered hopper, C&O hopper, first generation B&O 8 wheel caboose, first generation CBQ 8 wheel caboose (no herald), Republic Steel Bopper, Northern Pacific 8-wheel caboose, most derrick cars, Reading spotlight car, GAEX box, B&O box, C&O Box, Rutland box, THB animated box
Red Box sets: Tycotrol sets, chromed passenger sets (B&O ATSF), UP GP-20 Passenger set, Southern RR crescent
Red box engines: diesel switcher in all liveries but UP, SF and Republic, Atomic Energy Commission EMD-F (did they even make it? catalogued 1965), second generation C&O EMD-F, Cotton Belt GP, SP GP, CNW GP, DRGW GP, 1st generation IC GP-20 (transitional red box red, white & silver), GP w. dynamic brake blister, CN 430, C&O 4-6-2, B&O black 4-6-2
brown box: (?)GN Big Sky 430, PRR Brunswick Green 430, PC #5628 430, IC 430 (notICG), 1st generation 630s, "deluxe" EMD-F's, PPG chemical cars (?)
BB sets: Tropicana, Bubble Yum, uncatalogued Sears and Penneys sets, Western Auto
and there must be myriad other choices...
Magnolia Academy
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 446 ~
Member Since: December 09 2005 ~
Last Visit: October 28 2006
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - October 14 2006 : 12:33:02 AM
|
quote:OK, we have discussed most common, how about "rarest"
My nomination; PC F-9!
Originally posted by tsgtbob - October 14 2006 : 01:07:55 AM
|
Are the PC F units rare?
I have 2, one is unit #4751 with a white C in the logo on the side and one is unit #9769 with a red C on the side logo.
Ray
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 1285 ~
Member Since: December 14 2005 ~
Last Visit: May 16 2019
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
jlong
Big Six
Status:
offline
| |
Posted - October 14 2006 : 08:09:49 AM
|
quote:Are the PC F units rare?
I have 2, one is unit #4751 with a white C in the logo on the side and one is unit #9769 with a red C on the side logo. |
I was wondering the same thing since I've seen a few green PC F9's show up on ebay. I thought the GN sky blue F9 was the rare one.
John Long
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 288 ~
Member Since: September 04 2006 ~
Last Visit: April 08 2018
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - October 14 2006 : 09:54:48 AM
|
Rarities?
Tycoots:
I feel compelled to reiterate my opinion that, much like Lionel, Tyco "rarity" discussion must be tempered with the understanding they produced in huge numbers and scarcity is a VERY relative and subjective matter, often driven by vagaries like collector demand, regional availability and so on. Given that premise:
Tyco Brown Box 230-R, Penn Central unpowered B-Unit is, indeed, pretty uncommon. The Penn Central B unit is scarce because Tyco pulled part of the PC green stock and oversprayed same in good-old ATSF warbonnet to eliminate inventory. Take a gander at a representative pile of EMD-F B's in Warbonnet and you could very well run across an oversprayed former PC green B. The Penn Central B's are, therefore, on the scarce side.
As for the A units: I have what appears to be a Mantua/Tyco (marked on fuel tank) PC A unit that is twin-powered. Never seen another one but, since this example was purchased loose, who knows? The number variants of PC are quite interesting. The scarcest A unit may be red box era 9451 (yet another odd-numbered A). All number variant A's are far less common, I suppose, than some other liveries. With the equally erratic numbering of the rather uncommon PC streamline passenger cars, the Penn Central offerings do, indeed, seem to be rather aggressively pursued. Collectibility, though, doesn't correlate directly to "rarity". The Penn Central EMD makes multiple catalog appearances and heads-up master-boxed sets. As such, it is probably not truly "rare" as, say, a clear Tyco sales-stimulator or Deluxe in GN Big Sky blue would be.
for what its worth...
MagAc
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 446 ~
Member Since: December 09 2005 ~
Last Visit: October 28 2006
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - October 14 2006 : 09:58:50 AM
|
Rarities?
Tycoots:
I feel compelled to reiterate my opinion that, much like Lionel, Tyco "rarity" discussion must be tempered with the understanding they produced in huge numbers and scarcity is a VERY relative and subjective matter, often driven by vagaries like collector demand, regional availability and so on. Given that premise:
Tyco Brown Box 230-R, Penn Central unpowered B-Unit is, indeed, pretty uncommon. The Penn Central B unit is scarce because Tyco pulled part of the PC green stock and oversprayed same in good-old ATSF warbonnet to eliminate inventory. Take a gander at a representative pile of EMD-F B's in Warbonnet and you could very well run across an oversprayed former PC green B. The Penn Central B's are, therefore, on the scarce side.
As for the A units: I have what appears to be a Mantua/Tyco (marked on fuel tank) PC A unit that is twin-powered. Never seen another one but, since this example was purchased loose, who knows? The number variants of PC are quite interesting. The scarcest A unit may be red box era 9451 (yet another odd-numbered A). All number variant A's are far less common, I suppose, than some other liveries. With the equally erratic numbering of the rather uncommon PC streamline passenger cars, the Penn Central offerings do, indeed, seem to be rather aggressively pursued. Collectibility, though, doesn't correlate directly to "rarity". The Penn Central EMD makes multiple catalog appearances and heads-up master-boxed sets. As such, it is probably not truly "rare" as, say, a clear Tyco sales-stimulator or Deluxe in GN Big Sky blue would be.
for what its worth...
MagAc
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 446 ~
Member Since: December 09 2005 ~
Last Visit: October 28 2006
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
jlong
Big Six
Status:
offline
| |
Posted - October 14 2006 : 10:39:10 AM
|
The train Gods dropped my CBQ GP-20 on my porch the other day. It does have GP-20 decals but no dynamic brake blister. It runs much smoother than I expected and pulls really well. Well worth the $25.00 I paid. At least to me it is.
John Long
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 288 ~
Member Since: September 04 2006 ~
Last Visit: April 08 2018
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - October 14 2006 : 11:08:00 AM
|
John:
As a Lionel guy you, more than many of us lowly HO-sers, know that common doesn't ever directly correlate to "common." You tell me: what Lionel collector passes on Lionel Warbonnet EMDs just cuz they're the "common" livery? I suspect the number of such goofs lingers down around the ZERO figure. Same for PA/PB Warbonnet AmFlyers. They're "common" in a sense, true. They are also benchmark standard for those particular train lines. The CBQ Geep is the same critter for Tyco in the red box era: headlining MANY sets over the years. John Tyler knew he had a hit on his hands from the moment they saw the Geep in China-red. The "Black Diamond" set (featured in '61 in the catalog as Illinois Central green diamond) was quickly shelved, never to see the light of day, replaced with the heavily advertised Black Diamond set in CBQ red. Tyco never looked back; the GP-20 was a huge sales success for Tyco with both tinplaters AND scale modellers (hence the dynamic brake offering in CBQ). The ubiquitous CBQ Geep lingered over a decade, into the Brown Box years, with some of the usual cost-cutting over time (like the ommission of the signature GP-20 applique we've discussed, and, by the way, the CBQ is the only Tyco Geep livery to carry it). So, fellow Tycoot, all you did was buy a Tyco/Mantua landmark.
MagAc
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 446 ~
Member Since: December 09 2005 ~
Last Visit: October 28 2006
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
jlong
Big Six
Status:
offline
| |
Posted - October 14 2006 : 2:38:42 PM
|
Warbonnet F3's are an exception to the rule when it comes to common postwar Lionel. Truly an icon of the postwar Lionel era. They are often the engine postwar collectors go after first. Lionel can never make enough of them. But once you have a set or two or three in your collection, they become less interesting and less talked about.
Yes, the Tyco CBQ GP-20 is totally cool. Now I want a UP followed by a second CBQ. I see a mint Rio Grande GP-20 on ebay. Must be hard to find as it has spurred some interest.
John Long
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 288 ~
Member Since: September 04 2006 ~
Last Visit: April 08 2018
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - October 14 2006 : 3:30:46 PM
|
John:
The Rio Grande GP is one of the least-encountered red box GPs (see my "rarities" list earlier in this forum.) I suppose it will bang pretty high, particularly if NOS.
Regarding my old buddy Ray's comparitive scale of Tyco rarity 1-2-10-25 (Little trains to blue to red to brown box): he posited that scale a good generation ago. Now the proportion is perhaps something more like 1-2-15-50. Telling figures about relative availability of Tyco and something to keep in mind when shopping.
MagAc
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 446 ~
Member Since: December 09 2005 ~
Last Visit: October 28 2006
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
jlong
Big Six
Status:
offline
| |
Posted - October 14 2006 : 5:21:40 PM
|
quote: he posited that scale a good generation ago. Now the proportion is perhaps something more like 1-2-15-50. Telling figures about relative availability of Tyco and something to keep in mind when shopping.
MagAc
|
I find red box era most appealing due to the quality of construction and the selection. A colorful, realistic era for Tyco. There is some yellow box era stuff as well as brown box era stuff I find appealing.
I don't see HO as "lowly". No matter what the scale, to me it's all metal, plastic, and paint formed in many different ways to entertain us. A few aquaintenances who are serious HO modelers have trouble understanding my fascination for Tyco. "Well, it's chunk and it's funky" I say. "I get on the floor and run HO"
John Long
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 288 ~
Member Since: September 04 2006 ~
Last Visit: April 08 2018
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - October 14 2006 : 9:02:32 PM
|
John:
My preference is for red box era as well, I suppose. Though anything in that "golden era" of HO train sets--roughly 1955 thru the early seventies--is fair game for my Tyco hunting. The offerings from 1959 through 1971, which correspond with the beginning and end of the red box era, make for a cohesive and sensible collecting baseline, I think. The catalogs covering those years are wonderfully evocative, and show the depth and breadth of the extensive train and slot car line to dramatic effect. They all bear reprinting, perhaps all together as a cohesive Tyco overview aimed at fans. The lack of such reference is, I'm certain, part of the reason Tyco is still a collecting orphan compared to its other American compatriots.
The reason I'm compelled to backdate my preferences to '55 are the extensive offerings from Hobbyline (John English), Custombilt, KMT/Kusan, Herkimer/OK and a handful of others who's train sets vanished by 1960.
Hobbyline's former toolings served everybody from Lionel to post-'78 Mantua and Custombilt, Kusan, Herkimer and others sported as their core the superlative Globe EMD-Fs that eventually became the backbone of Athearn, so I feel they are important collecting touchstones.
Hobbyline, in 1955, offered magnificent streamliner and heavyweight sets in PRR, B&O, Western Pacific, Erie, even Wabash... yet they are forgotten today. Their Alcos FAs, yardbird switchers and no. 5000 Pacifics became the core of Lionel HO by the early sixties.
Oh, well, I'm rambling. Yet, in the end, I trust I've made my point about the merit of collecting old American HO... while we still can.
MagAc
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 446 ~
Member Since: December 09 2005 ~
Last Visit: October 28 2006
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
jlong
Big Six
Status:
offline
| |
Posted - October 15 2006 : 11:17:49 AM
|
quote:John:
My preference is for red box era as well, I suppose. Though anything in that "golden era" of HO train sets--roughly 1955 thru the early seventies--is fair game for my Tyco hunting. The offerings from 1959 through 1971, which correspond with the beginning and end of the red box era, make for a cohesive and sensible collecting baseline, I think. |
Golden era. You put it well. An era where Tyco got the bugs out and learned a market. Our interests are very much alike.
My interests branched into AHM last night as I nabbed another fond childhood memory. An ATSF MDT switcher. Who can forget the IHB 0-8-0 switcher? Gotta have one of those too. An AHM icon.
John Long
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 288 ~
Member Since: September 04 2006 ~
Last Visit: April 08 2018
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - October 15 2006 : 12:53:42 PM
|
John:
I wonder how many sets AHM sold on the strength of that awesome box art--the image is burned into my childhood memory: that splendid painting with the viewer's perspective of looking into a double-track mainline at a curve with a massive black smoke-belching IHB 0-8-0 on the right and an AA pair of McGinnis New Haven FM C-Liners making up ground on the left, a big freight drag behind and, in the corner, a signalman with lit lantern standing ahead of one of the red, white and blue State of Maine box cars...WOW!
I like pre-'68 AHM. a lot of the Austrian Roco offerings and the Rivarossi stuff: well, just great models. We weren't so thrilled as kids, though, as I recall. AHM's inexpensive offerings were beautiful, but DELICATE. Our Gilbert, Marx, Lionel, Tyco, Fleischmann, Penn Line, Revell, Lindberg, Hobbyline, Athearn, Varney--heck, just about everything else, was so much more robust. With the beautiful models AHM sold you needed a tube or two of glue as well, or your trackside was soon littered with stirrups, ladders, brakewheels, pilots, steam engine detail and worse.
As an adult, though, I've certainly been a big collecting fan. I love the big Riv. steam, the Austrian Alco Centurys and the superb E-8s and GG-1s (and, lest I forget, the Pocher 19th century stable of engines and cars.)
MagAc
Oh, and by the way, I think a former columnist for RMC christened those years previously discussed as "the golden era of HO train sets,"
much as I would like to take credit. I recall a "Collector Consist" article in the late 1980s that may be the culprit. In any event, I agree with the sentiment 100%.
Hail Red Box.
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 446 ~
Member Since: December 09 2005 ~
Last Visit: October 28 2006
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
jlong
Big Six
Status:
offline
| |
Posted - October 15 2006 : 1:59:28 PM
|
Yes, I vaugely recall the box art on AHM sets. I do recall the ads AHM placed in MR for "bargain" steam engines. Let's thank the arm chair model rairoaders of the 60's for buying and stashing these AHM "bargains" (something brass collectors scoffed at) as many MIB or like new pieces are up on ebay for reasonable prices. They are very nicely detailed and make excellent display pieces with occasional circle running.
Yes, I remember the fragileness of AHM. Woolworths blew it out every year after XMAS for 1/2 price. I had an MDT switcher, ATSF C Liner, Pennsy E8, and a B&O docksider who's siderods eventually broke off. I had a few pieces of rolling stock too but can't place it. I loved their building kits.
John Long
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 288 ~
Member Since: September 04 2006 ~
Last Visit: April 08 2018
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - October 15 2006 : 6:17:40 PM
|
Hmm, didn't realize that the PC Funit was "rare" in any way. My dad came home from work with one when I was a kid, and I havn't seen one since.
As for rarity, I do realize that Tyco is by no means rare. Nor is Lionel, Flyer, Marx, Atheran, Atlas, Rivarossi or for that matter, any mass produced trains!
IMHO, the only "rare" items are very limited production brass, which I can't afford anyway!
They are worth what a buyer will spend on 'em!
I have a small collectioin of Tyco/Mantua, mostly for sentiment's sake.
The comments on the Lionel AT&SF F-3s is right on the mark! I went through that phase, I just had to have a pair of A-A warbonnets.
After a year of not hearing myself think while running them, they got traded for a pair of Williams PAs.
Let's not even discuss that gawdaweful horn!
I came across what I now know to be the Tyco Talgo in a box of various stuff I bought at a Yard Sale a few years back.
Didn't know what it was until today thanks to this forum!
And. BTW, I edited this mess, 'cause, I can't spell tonight to save my butt!!!
Edited by - tsgtbob on October 15 2006 6:21:46 PM
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 53 ~
Member Since: October 11 2006 ~
Last Visit: March 01 2007
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
jlong
Big Six
Status:
offline
| |
Posted - October 15 2006 : 8:02:02 PM
|
The terms "rare" and "mint" are used loosley these days and abused on ebay. To a TCA guy, "rare" means twelve or less known to exist. "Mint" means absolutley no signs of use and it must have a perfectly un-marred finish.
John Long
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 288 ~
Member Since: September 04 2006 ~
Last Visit: April 08 2018
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - October 15 2006 : 8:36:24 PM
|
Eureka! Somebody else gets it. TSGTBob and John have reiterated my oft-repeated mantra about the "scarcity" of Tyco, Lionel and their kind. Hence my recommendation of adopting something like the Athearn checklist guide parameters for Tyco collectors: based on frequency of encounter or degree of availability rather than rarity. It doesn't diminish the merit of Tyco anymore than the vast production numbers of Lionel limit that company's pedigree: it is, rather, testimony to both their importance in the marketplace and enduring popularity. Can I get an amen!
With regard to AHM, I remember AHC offering bargain AHM and a once-a-year AHM sale featuring, generally, items requiring inventory reduction. As stated earlier, certain of their products have garnered my attention and still fetch good prices today: the big Rivarossi articulated steamers (ESPEE Cab Forward, Challenger, Big Boy, NW Y-6B), never exactly "cheap," just less than brass; the 2-10-4s; the Commodore Vanderbilt and unstreamlined J3A NYC Hudsons; the ubiquitous and splendidly performing Berkshires all come to mind.
The Rivarossi E-8s and GG-1s and their corresponding Riv. passenger rakes are still turning heads; the Roco Austrian offerings were all great performers. Tempo (Yugoslavia) offerings were a bit shakier but still generally quite well-detailed. Still, there is quite a quality drop between, for example, an original Rivarossi-built C-Liner and a later Tempo-built model.
What I always liked in the AHM catalogs were their companion lines of vehicles: generally EKO or Anguplas cars and trucks, Roco "Minitanks" and Umex "Minimovers": the superb line of HO scale roadbuilding equipment--fantastic stuff.
MA
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 446 ~
Member Since: December 09 2005 ~
Last Visit: October 28 2006
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
jlong
Big Six
Status:
offline
| |
Posted - October 16 2006 : 03:43:25 AM
|
I saw some Mimimovers on ebay and they are sharp. Cross Moffys caught my eye too. Another AHM classic.
John Long
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 288 ~
Member Since: September 04 2006 ~
Last Visit: April 08 2018
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - October 16 2006 : 5:04:43 PM
|
What strikes me as funny is the people who, when they see an old train, irregardless of make, they automatically think they hit the lottery!
I ran across a Globe F-7 several years ago, no box, but in nice shape. I got it for $2.
A week later, I came across the same thing, Globe F-7 still gold, and the person (at a flea market) wanted $50 for it!
All I could think of was he got stung at an estate auction, as he had several other pieces of yellow box Atheran there also (and at stupid prices too).
Personally, I consider almost NOTHING rare, as if it were manufacturered, it was made in enought numbers to pay off the production costs. (This is why brass is so expensive)
In an era of "instant collectables" (think NASCAR diecast) everyone thinks almost anything over 10 years old is an antique.
Not nessessarly so
What I would like to know is this. Who has the dies for the C-430 C-630, and the steam locomotives?
What is the chances they will be updated and used again?
Also, Is there any truth to the rumors that Lionel's accessory designer, Frank Petit did some of Tyco's accessories?
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 53 ~
Member Since: October 11 2006 ~
Last Visit: March 01 2007
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
jlong
Big Six
Status:
offline
| |
Posted - October 16 2006 : 7:19:24 PM
|
quote:that splendid painting with the viewer's perspective of looking into a double-track mainline at a curve with a massive black smoke-belching IHB 0-8-0 on the right and an AA pair of McGinnis New Haven FM C-Liners making up ground on the left, a big freight drag behind and, in the corner, a signalman with lit lantern standing ahead of one of the red, white and blue State of Maine box cars...WOW!
|
Well, Mag, you're a salesman. Previous to your post I noticed a NIB NH C Liner. I went back and looked again. "Damn that is sweet" So I closed my eyes and hit the bid button. Got an email at lunch that I won it. YES!
John Long
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 288 ~
Member Since: September 04 2006 ~
Last Visit: April 08 2018
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
jlong
Big Six
Status:
offline
| |
Posted - October 16 2006 : 7:26:12 PM
|
quote:I ran across a Globe F-7 several years ago, no box, but in nice shape. I got it for $2. A week later, I came across the same thing, Globe F-7 still gold, and the person (at a flea market) wanted $50 for it!
|
Flea market dealers who are in it to make money are notorius for putting outrageous prices on used stuff. They see mint collectibles go for hundreds and think they can get the same for scratched, rusty junk. Crapped out power tools are another story. Often times they ask nearly what you can buy them for new.
John Long
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 288 ~
Member Since: September 04 2006 ~
Last Visit: April 08 2018
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - October 16 2006 : 7:28:42 PM
|
Actually John, I am looking for the old AHM/Rivarossi O scale C liner.
I had one, but it had a bad motor, so, I traded it off for something else.
They are actully not a bad representation of the C liner in O, but, not too many RRs had 'em, and they were always oddballs.
But then, I love oddballs
[:D]
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 53 ~
Member Since: October 11 2006 ~
Last Visit: March 01 2007
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - October 16 2006 : 8:09:03 PM
|
John:
That McGinnis NH C-liner is on a lot of guy's short lists of Tempo C-Liners to own. Glad you got it. The early-to-mid sixties AHM set offerings featuring that previously described box art include a number of "Westward Ho" twin diesel sets with NH among their number--good to look out for and worthy of adding to the trove.
Regarding other components of this discussion, "Mantua Classics" has the tooling for Mantua/Tyco and is offering items on an irregular basis. Tony Cook has reported on some of their goings on in other topics, so check 'em out.
I, personally, don't believe Asian-rim factories repopping American-made HO trains drastically affects the collecting value regarding pursuing the original. New stuff is clearly marked and it just isn't the same--ask Varney collectors, vis-a-vis Life-Like reproducing Varney offerings, from expatriate Varney tooling, in Taiwan and Hong Kong in their early years. I suppose the feeling is similar to the legion of Lionel fans who will never own an offshore orange-box offering. Made in U.S.A. is still a matter of no small import to some in the train collecting world (and I count myself in their number.)
With regard to brass and its supposed indelible stamp of "premium collectibility" in HO, allow me to let the 800 lb. gorilla of "attrition" into the room. Internationally renowned fireworks collector Phil Helley was always fielding stupid questions from wanna-be collectors, most frequent of which was "why collect victorian and edwardian-era fireworks?" He never tired of pointing out the obvious: 999 out of 1000 firecrackers were consumed, thereby making the survivors valuable.
As an old brass hand with many brass-hording cronies, let me assure the reader that the survivability rate of pretty brass jewelry-cum-model-trains that spend their sheltered lives in fitted boxes or display cases is extremely high. Factors further compounding the survival rate of old brass: 1) Like the die-hard Fleischmann/Marklin operators used to say (with more than a hint of sarcasm) "The reason collectors compare brass engines to fine jewelry is because they don't run like fine timepieces." Many of my old Akane, PFM (Tenshodo) and International engines have operating characteristics I would charitably describe as "mediocre." Short of remotoring some of those "gems" there wasn't much more to do than run your Athearns, Varneys and Atlases and put the pretty overpriced brass engines back in their "shrines." 2) High initial cost also assures high survivability for brass. It is akin to the high percentage of Duesenbergs which survive: there are significantly fewer surviving Dorts, Rickenbackers and Mitchells by comparison.
Which brings me to the main point: It is the combination of high quality and comparitively low survival rate that make old Mantua and Tyco offerings so worthy of pursuit. True, purchases should be considered based on both condition and frequency of encounter, but the initial target market--virtually the same as post-war Lionel and Flyer--makes American tinplate HO in general, and Tyco/Mantua in particular, so worthy of collecting.
There, I feel better now...
MagAc
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 446 ~
Member Since: December 09 2005 ~
Last Visit: October 28 2006
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - October 16 2006 : 8:19:39 PM
|
MagAc, very well put!
The comments about attrition are the same ones I put forward for the survival of Marx, they were played with!
As for brass, there are some things that you could'nt find as plastic. I have found this out by being a 2 rail O scaler.
Until very recently, one could not go to his LHS, and buy, say, a GP-30 off the shelf, unless it was brass!
And, yes, compared to, say a BLI, or a P2K brass can have rather disappointing operating charictaistics, but, I have NO problem with hacking up a brassie to get a good runner out of it. (I also have no problem putting replacement frames and running gear under a Tyco Brown Box C-630)
Anyway.
I had forgotten that Mantua's steam stuff was being done, but, I love the Alco diesels, and would love to see 'em done again with "modern" drives
Saves space on my workbench[:D]
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 53 ~
Member Since: October 11 2006 ~
Last Visit: March 01 2007
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - October 16 2006 : 9:55:12 PM
|
Bob:
I'd recommend pursuing the old mu-2 powered Tyco/Mantua 430s, particularly in kit-form. They are excellent and reliable performers and generally not in need of rehab. The initial offerings often go unsung (like the saga of Carl in another forum topic who passed on a too-cheap 430 NH at a show over the weekend. There a lot of mu-2-powered livery options: Soo, CN, SF, CBQ, NH, IC, PC, even those scarce and topic-worthy 430s in PRR brunswick green and GN in big sky blue were mu-2 powered. (And I'm sure I've overlooked some.)
Regarding the brass, to characterize the performance of my old Tenshodo/PFM diesels as "rather disappointing" is like speculating whether decapitation is fatal. They run like crap.
Always glad to discuss Globe, however, regardless of context. Their dual-geared power trucks seem to be fetching a bit of dough these days. I've always felt they performed better than comparable later Athearn dual drive and I regard them as great unsung American powerplants, together with Lindsay and Hobbytown.
MagAc
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 446 ~
Member Since: December 09 2005 ~
Last Visit: October 28 2006
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
jlong
Big Six
Status:
offline
| |
Posted - October 17 2006 : 02:24:44 AM
|
quote:It is the combination of high quality and comparitively low survival rate that make old Mantua and Tyco offerings so worthy of pursuit. True, purchases should be considered based on both condition and frequency of encounter, but the initial target market--virtually the same as post-war Lionel and Flyer--makes American tinplate HO in general, and Tyco/Mantua in particular, so worthy of collecting.
There, I feel better now...
MagAc
|
For me it has mostly to do with fond memories of Tyco/Mantua and AHM. Plus the beauty of it all. The low survival rate makes collecting it fun and challenging. Sharing our fascination with others who have similar fascinations makes collecting fun as well.
John Long
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 288 ~
Member Since: September 04 2006 ~
Last Visit: April 08 2018
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - October 17 2006 : 12:10:22 PM
|
With appreciation:
I have to say my hat is off to Tyco Grand Poobah Cook for coming up with this forum because it has compelled others to tease this old brain pan and extract from same stuff that's been sequestered there in forgotten cobweb-cornered vestibules for years. Heretofore, among my old train collector circle at any rate, Tyco and its Hi-rail compatriots are still a dirty word. So, thank you Generalissimo Cook. Thank you very much!
John: Salesmanship is a two-way street, buddy. I hadn't thought about Kenner products for ages, but have brought down some sets from the WI house and added another Bridge and Turnpike set just to aid in erecting a layout train bridge per the 1958 "Planning Book."
Now to tease your brain: do you remember Kenner Mold Master?
I brought down a box from WI containing enough compound, axles and other parts to injection mold a HO army and have succeeded in doing same. I've done several jeeps, duece-and-a-halfs, tanks, rocket launchers, mounted radar arrays and a horde of little guys. Now I'm starting on the construction vehicles and road crew: cement mixer, caterpillar, turn-a-pull, dump druck, low-wing monoplane and the like.
The mold-master sets allowed Girder and Panel owners to people and equip their HO buildings and roadways with HO vehicles and machinery.
There was a construction set and military set.
MagAc
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 446 ~
Member Since: December 09 2005 ~
Last Visit: October 28 2006
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - October 17 2006 : 1:12:39 PM
|
quote:With appreciation:
I have to say my hat is off to Tyco Grand Poobah Cook for coming up with this forum because it has compelled others to tease this old brain pan and extract from same stuff that's been sequestered there in forgotten cobweb-cornered vestibules for years. Heretofore, among my old train collector circle at any rate, Tyco and its Hi-rail compatriots are still a dirty word. So, thank you Generalissimo Cook. Thank you very much!
Originally posted by MagnoliaAcademy - October 17 2006 : 4:10:22 PM
|
Oh, 100% agreement here. It is a grand thing that our Grand Poobah has here, a place to discuss a long neglected part of the model railroad hobby!
My Thanks also.
Now, back on topic.
Thanks for the suggestion on the dual powered C-430, I have never seen one, but I'll look now.
I have taken a 430, and a hi-short-hood 630, and gave the 630 the low hood from the 430, to do a Conrail 630.
Only problem is the trucks, the 630 had (for the most part) that somewhat strange looking Hi-Ad truck (as did most of the 430s), so findng one that is close can be a challenge.
My personal challenge right now is powering a brass O scale GP-35. Got a really good deal on a shell and frame, needing power. I'm thinking a Weaver drive.
I guess I got lucky, almost every brass locomotive I have ever got is a good runner. And I can't afford the really pricy ones, mostly what wuld be considered "bad" examples. For the record, I have in HO, a Westside B&O T3b, a Gem C&O Greenbrair, and in O A Kemtron RS-3 and that GP-35.
Took me 30 years in the hobby to get them too!
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 53 ~
Member Since: October 11 2006 ~
Last Visit: March 01 2007
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - October 17 2006 : 1:25:56 PM
|
The brass in my roundhouse is ancient, like the brass hat in charge. I do own a BLI T-1, my lone concession to modernity and PRR homage. It runs better than my old Penn Line twin-motored T-1, certainly, but the Penn Line's operational weaknesses--slipping and lack of synchronization--correspond exactly to two of the principle weaknesses of the real-life T-1 duplexes, so the idiosyncracies are appropriate, even though infuriating.
My low-hood shop-crops have all centered on dropping Atlas SD-24 noses using cabagged Mantua/Tyco GP-20 shells so I haven't experienced your truck mayhem.
MA
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 446 ~
Member Since: December 09 2005 ~
Last Visit: October 28 2006
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
jlong
Big Six
Status:
offline
| |
Posted - October 17 2006 : 9:22:53 PM
|
quote:Now to tease your brain: do you remember Kenner Mold Master?
|
I thought I did for a moment so I cheated and looked it up in my repro Sears toy catalog book. What I remember is Mattel's Vac-U-Form. My cousin had one. I had creepy crawlers and incredible edibles. Your Mold Master is in the book too - military set. 1963 chapter. A tall rectangular vessel with a plunger on top.
John Long
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 288 ~
Member Since: September 04 2006 ~
Last Visit: April 08 2018
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
|
|
Posted - October 17 2006 : 10:59:21 PM
|
Mold Master:
Seemingly dopey injection molding toy, I know. But the beauty is in the concept. Boys molding their own construction fleet and army to build, populate and defend the Girder & Panel cities they were constructing.
Brilliant! And far better models than you would think. I'll have to try to figure out pic-posting to this site so you can see. They're not Roco or Lesney, true. But they are more convincing than, say, fifties LeeTown vehicles, maybe even better than Varney or Tootsie in fidelity to scale. The construction crew and military personnel are certainly HO scale.
The molds produce detail that most definitely exceeds what Mattel Vacuform was capable of. I've made some of their vehicles with the Mattel-supplied patterns and they are desperately plain. Not so with the Kenner vehicles.
Short of posting photos AINT NOBODY gonna believe me, but I'm impressed. My Panelled buildings will have builders, tenants and security.
MagAc
|
|
Country: USA ~
Posts: 446 ~
Member Since: December 09 2005 ~
Last Visit: October 28 2006
|
Alert Moderator
|
|
Home
Forums
Events Calendar
Forum Admins & Mods
Register
