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jlong
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 Posted - September 05 2006 : 12:06:08 AM
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Hello, I'm new to this forum and stumbled on it a month ago via a link pasted on a Model Railroader forum.
I never knew there was collecting interest in Tyco and have spent a lot of time studying the Tyco information in this site. I've always held fond memories of the Tyco trains I had as a kid. This was in the 60's...pre-brown box days. I was in grade school.
I think my best memories are a CBQ C430 and UP F7 which ran for what seemed like years. I can still smell the aroma of hot grease and hear the little motors buzzing as those suckers blazed around my 4 x 6 loop of track. Oh and there was the lighted CBQ silver caboose and CBQ operating boxcar. Those were too cool. My first kit was a hooker chemical tank car. It was a joy to see these items featured in this site.
My Tyco days ended when I started mingling with fellow HO guys and found that Athearn along with Kadee couplers seperated the men from the boys. We would take our Athearn built up kits to school and show them off to each other. Checking each other for excess glue on the sides of the cars and making sure the Kadees were installed properly.
For years, I've attended train shows and only made glances at Tyco treasures buried in heaps of used HO. To me it was just piles of dimestore plastic. Age must be creeping in because now all of a sudden I wish I had picked up a few pieces. I guess now is as good of time as any to start searching for the stuff. Thanks to this site, and some posts I've read, I feel I can get off on the right track.
John Long
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Posted - September 05 2006 : 7:14:19 PM
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John:
"Rediscovering" old Tyco can certainly be an epiphany, eh? In my opinion--one not universally shared but still founded in marketplace observation--there is no time like the present to buy old HO, particularly so-called "tinplate" HO (Gilbert, Varney, Penn Line, Tyco and their brethren.) As I've opined in other forums, my sense of the present HO collecting market is that American-made Hi-Rail HO is where Lionel, Ives and Flyer were in the sixties and early seventies: when you had to sell tinplate by the pound (provided you could even find a buyer.)
Scrutiny of the internet auction venues supports this contention. Old NOS boxed Mantua and Tyco, for example, often fails to realize the original retail cost of the items (many times decades-old retail costs.)
Hope you can round up nice running examples of your old Mantua-motored Century 430 and EMD--and whatever else tickls your fancy. Good Hunting!
MagnoliaAcademy
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Posted - September 06 2006 : 10:43:55 AM
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Hey,
Having collected TYCO for many years, I think you'll find it is a great deal of fun. Certainly brings back memories of the trains I had as a kid and used to see in stores all the time.
Enjoy!
Tony Cook
HO-Scale Trains Resource
http://ho-scaletrains.net
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jlong
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Posted - September 06 2006 : 7:56:37 PM
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Thanks guys. Magnolia, you may very well be right in saying Tyco is nearing the dawn of being a collectible as baby boomers of the era are coming to age.
John Long
Edited by - jlong on September 06 2006 11:26:37 PM
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Posted - September 07 2006 : 2:43:28 PM
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John:
Thanks to that generational change you're referring to--and the tireless efforts of collectors like Brown Box Mega-Guru Tony Cook--the "brown box" era Tyco has been enjoying something of a rennaissance for some time now. I see young guys at the train shows and swap meets specifically asking for Tyco from that long and interesting era. I suspect--as you pointed out--part of that is just a change of the generational guard to adults buying what they recall as kids.
I find there is somewhat of a "collecting gap," if you will, for earlier stuff, however. HO "tinplate" from what some HO collectors refer to as the "train set golden age," roughly 1956 thru '68 to perhaps '70, seems to still be somewhat of an orphan. Part of the explanation is simple supply and demand--prodigious quantities were manufactured--but, still, I think there is something else afoot. Frankly, the "collector" machinery that "creates" markets has been noticeably absent in this area (with a few exceptions for devotees of Marklin, Athearn, Lionel HO and a handful of others. (And NOT THAT I'M COMPLAINING.)
Two recent internet auction examples come to mind: while the bloodletting was going on over the much-touted (and undeniably very handsome) Tyco/Mantua Alco 430 in PRR the gavel slammed down on an auction that recorded less than twenty hits: an early sixties Tyco Georgia Central set--the so-called "Grey" train of the Blue and Grey Civil War centennial series. While lacking the box and inserts, the "General" looked to be hardly used and the only notable absence among the cars appeared to be a box-car door. The winner paid less than $21 for the lot. The second example I'll note was for a 1964 "Mammoth of the Rails" set (PRR Mikado and 8 cars, including Reading searchlight, WM derrick car, operating hopper and lighted caboose). All this set lacked was the master box and the individual box for the Mikado. The remainder was there. Admittedly, this set wasn't listed under "Tyco" but it was clearly listed as an "Vintage HO Train Set" and fetched less than $19 (I know, I bought it.)
I think all this bodes well for your chances of nabbing that red box CBQ Alco and UP F. And, as before, good hunting!
MagAc
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Posted - September 07 2006 : 2:44:14 PM
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John:
Thanks to that generational change you're referring to--and the tireless efforts of collectors like Brown Box Mega-Guru Tony Cook--the "brown box" era Tyco has been enjoying something of a rennaissance for some time now. I see young guys at the train shows and swap meets specifically asking for Tyco from that long and interesting era. I suspect--as you pointed out--part of that is just a change of the generational guard to adults buying what they recall as kids.
I find there is somewhat of a "collecting gap," if you will, for earlier stuff, however. HO "tinplate" from what some HO collectors refer to as the "train set golden age," roughly 1956 thru '68 to perhaps '70, seems to still be somewhat of an orphan. Part of the explanation is simple supply and demand--prodigious quantities were manufactured--but, still, I think there is something else afoot. Frankly, the "collector" machinery that "creates" markets has been noticeably absent in this area (with a few exceptions for devotees of Marklin, Athearn, Lionel HO and a handful of others. (And NOT THAT I'M COMPLAINING.)
Two recent internet auction examples come to mind: while the bloodletting was going on over the much-touted (and undeniably very handsome) Tyco/Mantua Alco 430 in PRR the gavel slammed down on an auction that recorded less than twenty hits: an early sixties Tyco Georgia Central set--the so-called "Grey" train of the Blue and Grey Civil War centennial series. While lacking the box and inserts, the "General" looked to be hardly used and the only notable absence among the cars appeared to be a box-car door. The winner paid less than $21 for the lot. The second example I'll note was for a 1964 "Mammoth of the Rails" set (PRR Mikado and 8 cars, including Reading searchlight, WM derrick car, operating hopper and lighted caboose). All this set lacked was the master box and the individual box for the Mikado. The remainder was there. Admittedly, this set wasn't listed under "Tyco" but it was clearly listed as an "Vintage HO Train Set" and fetched less than $19 (I know, I bought it.)
I think all this bodes well for your chances of nabbing that red box CBQ Alco and UP F. And, as before, good hunting!
MagAc
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jlong
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Posted - September 07 2006 : 11:52:34 PM
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Magnolia, thanks for the insight on hunting stuff down. Tinplate HO brings to mind those Marx HO smoking steamers. Boy did they make some fine electrical aroma.
John Long
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Posted - September 08 2006 : 2:50:03 PM
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John:
An absolute bullseye with the Marx Hudsons! They're certainly the epitome of "tinplate HO," right down to riding on Marx's good old tubular rail, a sort of mini-two rail Lionel for sure!
One thing I've always found particularly charming about the HO offerings of Marx/Allstate, Gilbert and Lionel is the familial relationship between the scales. For example: Gilbert's HO Hudson isn't so much a scaled down NYC Hudson as a scaled down S-gauge 322 Hudson--kinda cool, but weird all at the same time. Set a Sante Fe tendered Marx HO Hudson down next to an 0-gauge 1829 Marx Hudson and a similar effect occurs. Lionel (old Hobbyline) HO Alco diesels look more like mini-Lionels than mini-Alcos--again, cool but weird.
(I suspect it is that familial relationship--and the further miniaturization of certain action accessories like Oil Drum Loaders, Automatic Milk Cars and their ilk--that make for those lines' devoted HO collector fandom today.)
"Tinplate" in HO is one of those ambiguous catch-alls I'm afraid. In general it seems to refer to "ready to run" items geared at a "train set" audience. Unfortunately, "ready to run" is also subject to the same subjectivities, I suppose. While the guys working diligently on their post 1960's Athearn, Mantua and MDC "shake and bake" kits were laughing off "tinplate" like Tyco, Marx and Lionel, the Guys soldering brass Kemtron tenders to accompany their Arbor Alleghanies replete with applied Cal-Scale lost wax were laughing off the Athearn and Mantua fans...and so on.
In the end, to me (and thank heavens) they're all just toy trains. I can picture that NYC Hudson smoker right now, pulling a string of Marx/Allstate cars: the Cabin Cruiser flat, the Rocket Fuel tanker, the Erie with cable-reels, a nifty NYC crane and crash tender with a classic Marxie bay window crummy bringing up the rear...
A pleasant reverie for certain,
MagAc
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jlong
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Posted - September 08 2006 : 10:17:02 PM
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quote:"Tinplate" in HO is one of those ambiguous catch-alls I'm afraid. In general it seems to refer to "ready to run" items geared at a "train set" audience. Unfortunately, "ready to run" is also subject to the same subjectivities, I suppose. While the guys working diligently on their post 1960's Athearn, Mantua and MDC "shake and bake" kits were laughing off "tinplate" like Tyco, Marx and Lionel, the Guys soldering brass Kemtron tenders to accompany their Arbor Alleghanies replete with applied Cal-Scale lost wax were laughing off the Athearn and Mantua fans...and so on.
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Magnolia, I understand where you are coming from. The ready to run world. Yea, there are a lot of blowhards out there condeming it.
Colorful toy like plug and play railroad systems are very appealing. Rich green grass scenery, plop down built up structures, trees, and signals along with prefab track has a character all its own. To me, a toy layout is an artist rendering of the real world with flare throw in. A lot of effort is put into seeking and arranging elements that make the scene look "right".
Toy designers tend to focus on interesting detail to make the product appealing and leave out unimportant detail to cut costs. Depending on how talented the designer is, these toys become works of art and we are art collectors in a sense.
John Long
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Posted - September 08 2006 : 11:48:11 PM
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John:
I think there is a small contingent of operators who have grasped the value of assembling their own (sometimes only approximately) HO worlds from disparate elements contemporary to the trains themselves. I've always been fond of the old Model Trains magazine articles integrating HO model roadways (primarily Aurora, Atlas, Marx and Faller) and model trains from the early sixties. (I've been casting about for a while for a few affordable Tyco Highway One road & rail crossings to integrate those two great systems: Tyco HO trains and HO slot tractor trailers. Thus far "collectors" are willing to pay more for the crossings than I care to shell out.)
I find the dearth of operators filling their HO worlds with the great period HO offerings of Plasticville and Hoffmann, Yank and Ideal to be kind of surprising. Those old building lines beg to be fully integrated into comprehensive "tinplate" HO layouts--as do the ancillary offerings of Halsam, Elgo and Kenner. Anyone who has ever ogled a period instruction manual for Elgo's "Skyline" building sets can't help but be impressed by that complete miniature Art Deco skycrapered world traversed by what appear to be Varney and Mantua trains galore. And what HO tinplate layout couldn't benefit from a big-ass Kenner Girder and Panel "Mini-Hellgate" bridge?
I've learned to enjoy the full range of options model railroading can offer. When I complete my heavily modified Mantua Mikado to DMIR conversion with all-weather cab, full piping, Worthington system, aftermarket valve gear, Kemtron trailing truck, detailed Selley crew and reworked Varney tender it will be sharing the old high rail roadbed with plenty of Tyco, Revell, Lindberg, Penn Line and all the rest of the old Americans, trundling through a landscape more representative of the world as I'd like it to be than the one we struggle in every long day.
Magnolia Academy
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jlong
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Posted - September 09 2006 : 12:15:55 PM
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Magnolia, we seem to think pretty much alike. Most of my stuff is postwar Lionel and I have a table top layout. But my intrests along the way dabbled in other scales.
I have a few issues of Model Trains and RMC from the 50's and I love to gaze over them. I've stashed some of the things you mention such as two Kenner highway Girder Panel sets and a skyscraper panel set. For awhile I concentrated on pre 69 Matchbox (who can't resist a Hoveringham tipper). The instructions to the Girder Panel sets show bridge projects with HO trains mixed in (Athearn I believe - I would have to look). My goal is to build a small HO layout displaying this stuff. Until now for some reason I never focused on HO trains.
My intrests in dime store plastic really boomed last winter as I was working out of town and renting a studio apartment. To kill liesure hours I framed a 2 x 4 handi panel with a grassmat laminated to it for an N scale starter set and additional track. I painted and built inexpensive plastic kits and plopped them down on the platform accumalating rolling stock along the way. when it started taking shape, I would sit and watch the train go in circles for what seemed like hours. Attending a couple trainshows last spring, I started taking a harder look at those piles of used HO. Like you say, there are a lot of treasures buried in there I think.
You mention USA trucking. I would love to combine that too. I remember very well seeing USA trucking sets in department stores in their day. They were tempting at the time but there was a stupid voice in my head telling me I'm too old for that. Today I think back and wonder WTF was I thinking?! Just think how good that would look with Bachman EZ track.
John Long
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Posted - September 10 2006 : 12:04:54 PM
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Kenner's Manuals:
John's recollections about the old Kenner Girder & Panel sets compelled me to crack open some old Kenner manuals to determine what manner of propulsion is presented perambulating around their plastiform panelled products...
The cover of the old Girder and Panel Planning Book (1958) has a skyscraper-filled street scene replete with many outsize tin friction and plastic vehicles. I recognize one Dinky "Atlantic" convertible a couple plastic Renwal delivery and pick-ups and a host of rather generic (possible Marx imported) tin friction sedans, a fire ladder truck and a
tractor trailer. There are two Marx propeller airliners at the airport and, most germane to the Tyco website, a TYCO STREAMLINER observation in mid-fifties red and yellow trim resides in the Passenger depot, unloading passengers under a two-story roofs with paited pennants flapping in the breeze. The back cover shows some EKO and perhaps Anguplas plastic autos, a warehouse scene with three Penn Line Semis and trailers, including what are obviously two Penn Line standard issue train set Hinde and Dauche trailers with their lettering partially obscured by an airbrush effort to obscure the manufacturer. The "modern terminal" building on the same page features a full rake of three good old Mantua Tyco extruded aluminum streamliners. Pretty cool!
The Bridge and Turnpike planning book features plastic cabin cruisers--akin to but yet not Athearns as well as a Tootsietoy (Dowst of Chicago)--more of the plastic "HO" cars and trucks and more Penn Line diecast tractor trailer combinations. On the long beautiful railroad span that forms the center of attention is a freight drag composed of Varney (and/or) Penn line freight cars pulled by what is most probably (given the Penn Line freights) a Penn Line Geep in ESPEE black widow paint. The Penn Line Geeps sported Athearn plastic shells. Again, for Mantua/Tyco buffs, there appears to be one of the scarce Tyco tin-sided Burlington reefers ahead of the Varney caboose. The back cover sports a repeat of the "modern terminal" rearview with the three Mantua/Tyco streamliners as well as a rockin' side view with an A/B EMD Athearns (probably) pulling a heavily airbrushed baggage car that remains unidentified and a totally undisguised trio of TYCO STREAMLINER cars where no effort was made to obscure the lettering. Inside back cover is all railroad bridges (fantastic!) and they're being traversed by more Varney freight cars and crummies, with at least one drag headed by a pair of ancient gold A-98" and "B-89" Globe Streamliners, the rare precursors to the Athearn EMDs.
The "Motorized" combined "Special Project Book" is a bit newer (1960) and shows Fred Bronner (Matchbox) grey wheeled autos as well as what appear to be rare "Budgie" diecast autos. There are tin friction jets and more of the Penn Line Ford cab-overs and trailers. Unfortunately the HO tracks are devoid of action. Too bad!
All in all, it was an eye-opener to glance over these old manuals. Hopefully, when I get a chance to go to WI and go thru the Kenner sets that reside at the summer house, I'll find more goodies in the "Subdivision" and "Hydro-Dynamic" building sets!
MagAc
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Posted - September 11 2006 : 2:06:58 PM
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Elgo American Skyline's Trains:
Dug out an old (1956) American Skyline Building Set manual to follow up on the comments regarding vintage HO trains featured on the box art and in the manuals for Elgo, Halsam, Kenner and their ilk in the late fifties and early sixties. Elgo Plastics (3610 Touhy Avenue, Chicago, USA) produced a line of building sets marketted as "Skyline", capable of producing some of the splashiest Art-Deco looking skyscrapers, bridges, airline and train terminals you could have envisioned. Running through the double page spread cityscape of their 1956 manual are a number of unidentified autos: what are probably Varney plastic Ford sedans and at least one Comet Authenticast diecast pick-up. The foreground features two trains approaching each other on a double main line. What had happily transmuted to Tyco trains in the fog of my memory turned out to be HO trains more in line with what you'd expect in '56. There is a UP EMD F A/B which seems to be a nicely decorated Varney diecast pair dragging what are probably Varney and/or Mantua kit cars. Approaching this freighter on the other track is a beautifully finished Model Die Casting 2-6-2 Prairie with semi-Vanderbilt tender dragging a trio of hard-to-make-out cars, possibly MDC, Varney and/or Gilbert.
The Elgo landscape these vintage HO trains are trundling thru is magnificent: from the 42" high, 28-story "Elgo Tower" building to the suspension bridge (which appears to be over five feet long!) to the 39" high municipal building to "Grand Central Station," checking in at 16"x17" with a radio-antenna equipped tower 19" off the ground. Imagine your fleet of Tyco Amtrak or Tyco chrome Sante Fe set zipping around that landscape at night, silhouetted passengers peering out, necks craning at an Elgo skyline!
MagnoliaAcademy
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jlong
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Posted - September 11 2006 : 9:34:25 PM
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quote:Kenner's Manuals:
John's recollections about the old Kenner Girder & Panel sets compelled me to crack open some old Kenner manuals to determine what manner of propulsion is presented perambulating around their plastiform panelled products... |
Thank-you Magnolia for identifying the vehicles and trains.
You compelled me to dig up my sets (Girder and Panel Building set & Bridge and Turnpike set) and look at the instruction manuals. Both are dated 58 and are exactly what you described. The scene on the cover of the bridge and turnpike set is the toy look I was getting at in my earlier post. It is just plain dreamy.
There are a couple more sets with 70's looking box art featuring icky Matchbox Superfast cars.
Another set I have is what looks like a wooden erector set and it's called "Arkitoy". The instructions are dated 1930.
John Long
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Posted - September 12 2006 : 4:57:12 PM
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More on Building Sets:
Meccano, Marklin, Gilbert Erector, Lionel Constructor, Ideal Super City, Block City, Plastic Bricks, Arkitoy, Lanky Links, Stan-Lo and their compatriots all have their fans and adherents. I've developed a fondness for the rare Root Co. building sets, made of the same elements as were used in their Bee Keeping Apiary structures. Like Stanley Tool's "Stan-Lo," Root's venture appears to have been an attempt to keep employees busy thru depression years.
I do feel, however, that all the aforementioned are better suited for Standard, O or S gauge train layouts.
The Kenner and Elgo Skyline sets were clearly geared toward HO, with mention made of the "1/8 to the foot" scale in their literature. I would be remiss, however, not to mention Child Guidance building sets as well as the superb offerings by Hoffmann: "City in a Sack" and "der Kleine Stadt Bauer" (Little City Planner), both offered by AHM in the early and mid-sixties. The Child Guidance buildings have a nice Bauhaus or City Moderne feel while the Hoffmann sets are very European in look. Mention needs to be made as well of good ol' Lego systems, whose early building sets are very highly sought, particularly abroad. Lego had an entire line of really top-flite companion HO/OO cars and trucks and was definitely geared toward use with Marklin, Fleischmann, Lang, Hornby/Triang and their comrades.
All this might seem a long way from pertinent to discussion of Tyco trains. In my opinion, though, the modeller who overlooks the possibility of combining these with their HO "Tinplate" to create a miniature version of the "Toy Train" worlds so long admired in the Lionel/Flyer/MTH world is missing the opportunity to the be the first on the block with a spectacular layout.
A table-top of old Tyco/Mantua freighters and streamliners; peopled with little guys n' gals from Selley, Marx, Airfix, Revell and Comet; traversed by cars and trucks from Matchbox, Eko, Wiking, Varney, Siku, Husky, Impy, Budgie, Tootsietoy, Roco, Authenticast, and all the rest; trundling over Kenner Bridges and Turnpikes past Elgo and Kenner skyscrapers; operating Marklin or Authenticast slewing cranes; dowsing flames at the Renwal "House on Fire"; serving the port with overhead cranes, conveyors and ocean freighters from Cox Trainscapes... spectacular!
MagAc
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jlong
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Posted - September 12 2006 : 10:42:29 PM
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quote:| All this might seem a long way from pertinent to discussion of Tyco trains. In my opinion, though, the modeller who overlooks the possibility of combining these with their HO "Tinplate" to create a miniature version of the "Toy Train" worlds so long admired in the Lionel/Flyer/MTH world is missing the opportunity to the be the first on the block with a spectacular layout. |
Lincoln logs might be a drift from Tyco but we're talking accessories for our display layouts here. The construction set names you mention are turning this into an interesting discussion as I recall some of them such as Skyline, Renwall, Lionel Construction (I have one of those), and village in a bag? Seems I had one of those. They were little bungalos if I'm not mistaken. Along with AHM and Revell structures, I remember putting together Mini Lindi kits for my HO pike. The semis were my favorite.
This is good info to note because the kind of stuff you mention shows up at our local antique malls and big Green Bay shows during the winter and spring.
John Long
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Posted - September 12 2006 : 11:42:04 PM
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Building Set Redux:
I once had a friend dare me to integrate a very toy-like early 1950s dimestore-era hard plastic multi-colored Renwal "Panama Canal" toy into a train show module. When my module was positioned in the club layout for the show we were participating in I thought I'd never here the end of the jibes and jokes from the old hard-liner model railroaders. I'd gone the dare one better and placed a poly-vinyl Eldon car ferry in the foreground, discharging its load of bright little cars and trucks smack dab into a town at the shore's edge comprised of 1940s miniature Built-Rite paper structures and even some ancient turn of the century "Happy Village" houses. My trains were all the brightest, shiniest straight out of the box "Tinplate HO" I could find with particular emphasis on the very vivid purple ACL streamliners from Varney and Tyco. Now I think it goes without saying it was the weirdest module in the club run; but don't you know it garnered the most attention, particularly from attending children.
I suppose there is a lesson in that story somewhere...
Magnolia Academy
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jlong
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Posted - September 14 2006 : 12:34:12 AM
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Probably one of the most interesting modular group I've ever seen was in the Seattle/Tacoma area in the mid 70's. The trains and structures for the most part were crudely scratchbuilt from everyday goods. The engine boilers were made from soup cans with wooden cabs and rested on Lionel prewar motors. Dowel stock and wire made up domes, stacks handrails and piping. Tenders, Box cars, gondolas, etc road on Lionel prewar trucks and were made from 1/4" thick basswood stock. Everything was spray painted and hand lettered. The track was made of three strips of sheet brass nested in slotted basswood ties. Structures were made from poster board and basswood. The brickwork, siding, windows, and roofing was hand painted. The purpose of the club was to demonstrate what model railroading was like in the early 1900's. Lionel did sell seperate sale motors for scratchbuilders in the early 1900's as a kit. The "Super Motor" they called it.
Magnolia, I dug out a copy of Model Trains last night (Dec 59) and read myself to sleep with it. There is a project layout by Gil Reid. Somewhere, mention of "tinplate HO" is made so I see where the term came from. To be a model railroader must of meant brass engines and craftsman kit rolling stock.
John Long
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Posted - September 14 2006 : 10:07:06 AM
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Pioneers and Model Trains Magazine...
John:
The "pioneer" reproduction layout in Tacoma sounds really terrific. The fact that railroad modellers are spoiled by today's wealth of options and spectacular ready-to-run trains has so completely erased from our modelling memory the primitive roots of this hobby. I regularly re-read ancient and tattered editions of Henry Greenly's seminal works in model railroading: "Model Engineering" (Cassell, 1915) and "Model Electric Locomotives and Railways" (Cassell, 1922) just to humble myself and put in perspective my simple "assembling of materials" rather than the always-imaginative, often-brilliant scratch-building of our predecessors.
Regarding Model Trains magazine: short of the old Mantua Cyclopedias and Tyco catalogs there is no reading I can recommend more to any Tyco fan than Model Trains Magazine from roughly 1955 thru 1964. The December issues of Model Trains during that "golden era" of HO train sets feature a lengthy "Train Set Directory," broken down into categories like "HO Freight Sets" or "Diesel Passenger Sets."
A photo of each set is shown, followed by the set name, consist, choice of livery, price and manufacturer.
While not without some errors and ommissions the annual Model Trains Directories comprise perhaps the best overall view of what was offered to model railroaders in those years. While covering HO, S, O, and even TT scale for a few years by 1960 there were so many HO sets the Directory was confined to HO. So, Tyco fans, get yourself a back issue of Model Trains annual train set directory. You won't regret it. John's report on digging out his 1959 Directory issue was enough to compell me to drag mine out of the archive and start pawing thru their well-leaved pages once again.
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jlong
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Posted - September 14 2006 : 1:36:28 PM
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quote:Regarding Model Trains magazine: short of the old Mantua Cyclopedias and Tyco catalogs there is no reading I can recommend more to any Tyco fan than Model Trains Magazine from roughly 1955 thru 1964. The December issues of Model Trains during that "golden era" of HO train sets feature a lengthy "Train Set Directory," broken down into categories like "HO Freight Sets" or "Diesel Passenger Sets."
A photo of each set is shown, followed by the set name, consist, choice of livery, price and manufacturer.
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Yes I was looking at that directory. HO was not cheap in those days. Tyco sets cost almost as much as Marx O gauge and low end Lionel O gauge sets. A Marx HO GP-9 set was priced nearly the same as Athearn's HO GP-9 set. It's likely Athearn killed Marx HO over this.
John Long
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Posted - September 14 2006 : 4:44:33 PM
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Nifty Fifties Tyco and Co.:
Per John's comments:
HO trains weren't cheap in the fifties. Not only did Tyco prices rival O gauge Marx and approach Lionel O gauge prices, they frequently exceeded them.
In 1958 an off the shelf Norfolk and Western 4-8-4 J with smoke and whistle tender, culvert loader, culvert unloader, transformer, crane car and work caboose: Lionel's absolute top-of-the-line "Super O" steam freight set cost $100.
American Flyer's top of the line freight set, the "Challenger Freight," with 4-8-4 UP Northern, whistle smoke and choo-choo plus eight cars fetched some pretty serious coin: $67.50 in 1958 American cartwheels.
Tyco's off-the-shelf, top of the line freight set was the T-10 with "TYCO" marked Mikado with Silomatic drive as well as a little side tank switcher, seven cars and illuminated caboose. Cost of the Tyco T-10? $99.95. How's that for 1958 sticker shock?
If you were interested in "bargain priced" Tyco you were pretty much SOL.
If passenger streamliners were your cup of tea...
A comparable American Flyer set was "The El Capitan": Sante Fe diesel with coach, dome and observation car. Cost: $47.50
Lionel's New Haven Alco, with a dummy B unit and four passenger cars fetched $65.00
Little old "junky department store throwaway HO" Tyco offered the T-5 RF-16 Shark diesel with three extruded aluminum streamliners at $46.95 (half-a-buck less than the comparable Gilbert) or the T6-2, with diecast pacific and three streamliners at $64.95 (a nickel less than Lionel).
Starting to get the fifties picture, Tyconauts? Part of the pricing is demand-driven (both Flyer and Lionel were losing market-share dramatically to upstart HO). Part is based on start-up and development costs not yet amortized over time. All this stuff was brand spanking new. HO'ers tend to forget that Mantua Mikados offered for cheap in 1975, or almost any inexpensive Athearn EMD or MDT reefer or AHM E-8 or any of their kindred are affordable because they're produced essentially from decades-old toolings and designs. Your Athearn F is dirt cheap in part because it differs little from the Globe EMD that Irv obtained after buying out that noble Wisconsin firm back in the ancient days of "train set HO."
Another contributing factor, which can't really be related without seeing and handling the early HO, is material quality. Tyco's reefers had beautifully embossed applied tin sides with separate ladders and brass brake wheels mounted on tiny pins so they could spin 'round. The freight trucks, all metal with wonderful cast-detailed wheels, bear little relationship to "the wonders" of modern nylon. Silomatic drive in the big early Tyco steamers is eagerly sought today because of its superior operating capabilities. Hold a fifties Tyco RF-16 Shark in one hand and a plastic seventies Shark in the other. Tell me there is no difference. Examine a rake of early extruded aluminum streamliners. Compare it to a last-generation plastic-bottomed Tyco Amtrak from the seventies. Place a Tyco illuminated caboose from the fifties or sixties next to a nylon laddered Hong Kong Tyco caboose. You get the idea.
One last aside: those Marx casualties from the fifties--the rare streamliners that couldn't compete with Athearns. No wonder: Athearn cars were plastic, unlit and initially kit built. Marxs' magnificent unsung streamliners are most akin to brass Tenshodos costing a helluva lot more money: they're painted embossed metal with cast trucks, cast underside detail, they're lighted, they have separately applied metal aerials and other applied detail, they have jewelled marker lights. They came fully assembled in sets of three with a gear-driven AB set of Warbonnet Streamliners and were initially offered at $35. The last year they appeared their price had dropped to $25. Like the magnificent Kusan/AMTs, the Herkimer OKs, the Varney and Penn-Line embossed streamliners, even Mantua's extruded aluminum line, the magnificent metal Marxies couldn't resist the onslaught of plastic passenger cars. A pity...
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jlong
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Posted - September 14 2006 : 11:42:04 PM
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One thing I recall in Model Railroader of the early 70's was the president of Tyco placed open letters in MR. I remember reading them and he just didn't strike me as a trainhead. I have no issues from this period. Anyone recall his name?
quote:Another contributing factor, which can't really be related without seeing and handling the early HO, is material quality. Tyco's reefers had beautifully embossed applied tin sides with separate ladders and brass brake wheels mounted on tiny pins so they could spin 'round. The freight trucks, all metal with wonderful cast-detailed wheels, bear little relationship to "the wonders" of modern nylon. Silomatic drive in the big early Tyco steamers is eagerly sought today because of its superior operating capabilities. Hold a fifties Tyco RF-16 Shark in one hand and a plastic seventies Shark in the other. Tell me there is no difference. Examine a rake of early extruded aluminum streamliners. Compare it to a last-generation plastic-bottomed Tyco Amtrak from the seventies. Place a Tyco illuminated caboose from the fifties or sixties next to a nylon laddered Hong Kong Tyco caboose. You get the idea.
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Oh yea, I've seen the difference. Mantua steamers were practically bullet proof. They were constructed much like Lionel. Robust but lacking detail. Same goes for their extruded streamliners. I find it ironic that both Lionel and Tyco were bought by food companies around 1970 and both products were re-engineered to be priced for the masses. Both companies had offices in New Jersey. 1970 was around the time Matchbox discontinued their 1-75 series for superfast (to compete with Hot Wheels). The toy and model industry took drastic changes around 1970 as America had drifted into the throw-away era. Automobiles started going to hell too. We did get Led Zepplin and Black Sabbath though...they were everything.
Things took another spin in the late 70's as the train buying community got pissed off at it all. Tyler brought Mantua quality back and General Mills spun Lionel into their Fundimensions division bringing back 50's quality. (magnetraction, extruded aluminum, metal trucks, etc). At a price too I should add. I think Mantua took the HO community by storm with an articulated logger for under $75.00.
John Long
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Posted - September 15 2006 : 10:16:23 AM
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Carry me back; Carry me back; Carry me back...Baby where I come from...
Tycoots:
It has struck me, in reviewing this particular forum, that even though I aint reached fifty my nostalgic ramblings sound like those of the proverbial cracker-barrel grampa babbling 'bout the good old days.
Well, train collecting brethren, nothing could be furthererer from the truth...
We live in the "Golden age of HO Train Collecting": where all those magnificent machines discussed in these forums can be ogled, obtained and collected en-masse, often for pennies on the dollar:
Scored the lastest gem from Athearn from my local hobby dealer...
Bought a MIB Tyco Beal Street trolley in the neighborhood antique mall for $8...
Dragged home a huge milk crate full of vintage Tyco, Penn Line, Gilbert and Marx from a local auction for $20...
Purchased a Varney Trainmaster set in master box from an internet auction site for $35...
Finally scored that long-sought Mantua Reading steamer for $120 at the local TCA event...
Bought a 1961 Tyco Dizzy Brakeman set from two nice oldsters at the flea market for $12...
Got a fist-ful of old Mantua and Tyco catalogs at the train club's show for $20...
And while the particulars of these transactions are inventions for the purposes of this discourse, the venues are not and the prices are in line with many of the bargains we've all scored over the last few years of this "Golden Age" of Tyco collecting...
buying a stairway to heaven... or is it ballasted roadbed...
Magnolia Academy
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jlong
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Posted - September 16 2006 : 12:39:33 AM
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Magnolia,
Great finds! I think we're on a roll here. I just won on ebay, a boxed Tyco/Mantua shifter set which appears to be in pristine condition just like the one in 59 Model Trains except no operating brakeman. For twice the 59 MSRP. Now I want one of those automatic XING gates and operating pipe loaders. LMAO!
I've been cruising ebay looking at brown box operating accessories and lighted built ups. Man, the detail and decoration on many of them blows my mind. And like you say, cheap to buy! Even MIB. I was looking at some Mantua Pacifics and Mikes. Man, they have character, don't they?
I agree with you on the cost of collecting. It appears hard to get burned with this stuff. Like you say, the prices are cheap to begin with. From what I've seen, you can buy junkers for parts at train shows for coffee money and I mean that litterally. Kind of like what collecting postwar Lionel was like in the 60's and early 70's.
There is a hobby shop near me that has NOS 70's Athearn and MDC kits with $5.95 price tags over the old $1.98 printed prices. I like to pick one up on occasion and build it. When I open the box the first thing I do is take a big wiff like it was a fine cigar. Boy does that take me back and really gets the build juices flowing.
Nothing wrong with reminiscing and rambling here. It's what this forum is all about.
John Long
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Posted - September 16 2006 : 11:25:41 AM
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"inventions for the purposes of this discourse..."
Alas, John, my "finds" were mere artifice, created to compel readers to explore many of the venues wherein the treasures lay.
Those created finds are, however, representative of what can be had--often without much difficulty--in the field of tinplate HO these days, as you well know and so ably described with your own recent acquisitions.
I "invented" same because I've always been rather private about my collection and I've always been a little off-put by "crowing collectors": you fellas know the type: guys who can't resist parading treasures before envious eyes at every opportunity. I must say I liked the recent coup by top-flite Tyco collector and fellow forum member "Vintage HO." Readers who return to his "introductory" comments from months ago can "read between the lines" and quickly tell he's amassed an enormous collection including ultra-rare stuff we all dream of but still finds no need to "crow." The manner in which he merely consulted "an old file folder" of Tyco material to unveil for us all the mystery of the "deluxe EMDs"... that was classic cool.
In any event, I really enjoyed your comments in the previous reply, wherein you adroitly conjured up the spooky parallels between the downfall of the two tinplate giants, Tyco and Lionel, in the seventies.
I'd forgotten 'til recently how Lionel, much like Mantua, shook off the corporate shackles and "got uncrappy" again in the late seventies (even though I've got a beautiful Lionel/Michigan NW Geep running on the O gauge layout to remind me.)
To inject a bit of "absolute truth" into this screed... my lastest "real-life" acquisition was a lot of twelve cars from "Crown" "OK" "HOTCO" and "Bronco" from the sixties. These weird made in Hong Kong cars are dead rip-offs of primarily Athearn freighters. The five triple dome tankers are in Athearn liveries but bear different numbering; cabooses are similarly done. The 40' boxcars are beautifully decorated, L&N, Rock Island Rocket, NYC and so on. If these guys weren't stamped otherwise you'd swear they were early ready-to-run-Athearn, right down to the beautiful cast metal sprung trucks. The manufacturer of these cars in Hong Kong jobbed them thru all kinds of sales venues: I've been told by old Herkimer OK hands that HOTCO is an acronym for Herkimer OK Train Co., who, evidently, marketted the line for a time (remember, also, some cars are marked "OK".) Bronco was one of the last purveyors of the line. They were a Long Island firm with a complete train line (very briefly, but that's another forum topic). Most relevant, however, is the "Crown" label these cars were sold under (some cars bear all three marks at once: HOTCO, Crown and OK. Crown was briefly marketted in the USA as an "inexpensive secondary line" to the boys in Woodbury Heights, NJ. That's right... anyone who knows their word origins can tell you: "Mantua" means "Crown." There ya go...
MagAc
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jlong
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Posted - September 17 2006 : 01:02:17 AM
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I am going to keep a look out for the Athearn knock offs you mention. They sound interesting. The orient is notorious for reverse engineering american toys. Some are blatant about it. Sakai O gauge Japaneese tin comes to mind. A direct knock off of Marx. I do admire the stuff though. Their colorful 027 switches are a drop dead knock out. The orient often mispelled American road names or confused the manufacture names with the roadnames. It makes for interesting collecting. It is also interesting to see tooling get passed on from one company to another. You see this in model trains more than any other industry. The Walthers buy out of Life Like was a disapointment for me with N scale for they expect to get Kato money for mid range quality. Rapido equipped Life Like Proto N engines were an excellent value but not anymore. All they did was swap the Rapidos for knuckle couplers and doubled the price. Hell, we were doing the swap for $5.00.
For one season, 2002/03, Walmart sold an inexpensive line of Bachman/Tyco looking TT sized battery trains called "Kid Connection" They were fabulous metal castings with great paint jobs and crisp lettering. Complete sets were $10.00 and you got a s**load of plastic roadbed track and flat plastic trees. Or you could buy individual carded cars and engines for a couple dollars. I only bought two sets and wish I'd bought twenty but they disapeared off the shelves and I haven't seen them since. The sets I got are headed by an Alaska F unit and two Alaska streamline coaches, a (get this now) "Lion Oil" tank car, and yellow D&H hopper. The Lion Oil tanker is candy apple red with silver letters. It is just FKN sweet. It takes a lot of skill to make the trains run for you have to put an exact number of cars behind the engine. Otherwise it flys off the track or spins at a standstill. Ertl carried a near identical line for a short time (maybe they still do) but not as sharp looking. They probably came from the same factory.
I know what you mean by crowners. LMAO. Especially with O gauge. They stand at hobby shop counters and train show tables bragging for twenty minutes, buy a magazine, and leave. I get compelled to shove a sock in their mouths as I stand their waiting to pay for my train. Clerks get compelled to squirt them with a garden hose as they distract from real buisiness. They post profusely on O gauge forums as well.
I don't try to be private about my collecting nor do I care to crown. I do get overly excited on occasion when I find something I've been searching and yearning for and feel compelled to tell the world about it. I get some strange looks let me tell you. I display N scale at work and have a loop of roadbed track hanging on my wall so I can "play" during lunch once in awhile. A couple months ago I stumbled on an AB Bachman plus black widow F7 set for $30.00 during lunch hour. I raced back to work with them, set them on my fun loop, and screamed "Come see my black widow F-7's" at everyone. I think the owner of the firm was tempted to have me drug tested after that incident. The most obnoxious event was a few hours before my sister's wedding which I was supposed to be part of, I got a lead on some Lionel NYC F3's in like new condition with master carton and all at a bargain price. Well I got the F3's but was an hour late getting to her wedding. LMAO... Everyone except my brother in law's father who thought it was hilarious, was major f*** pissed as I raced into the church with master carton and all to show why I was late. I am missing in the wedding pictures. So what?
John Long
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Posted - September 17 2006 : 12:48:20 PM
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GHOST TRAINS...
John:
Your wedding tale is the train set version of "Grumpier Old Men's" Walter Matthau and Jack Lemmon showing up late for the wedding because they'd stopped off to fish...
I'd be divorced if I'd pulled that stunt: but, then you did bag the engines, eh?
I've determined the only way to do justice to the OK/HOTCO/Crown story is a separate topic. They are such an intriguing "political" sidelight to the corporate shenanigans of American train companies in the early sixties. You see, Crown cars don't merely "resemble" Athearn's product. Except for deviations in the printed car ID and the Crown, Hotco and OK labels embossed underneath these cars are virtually indistinguishable from Athearn. The Crown components, when disassembled, interchange with any and all Athearn counterparts: they appear the same.
This takes on importance first because Herkimer Tool and Model Works, Herkimer, New York, distributed full lines of HO train sets and cars beginning (from their literature) in July, 1957. Showcasing their line of internally-produced extruded aluminum streamliners (excellent models), the Herkimer "OK" line used Athearn engines for motive power: Hi-F and gear driven EMD Fs and Geeps and even the little Athearn Hustler. No full train set line would have been complete without freight cars and, you guessed it, the "OK" freighters are ready-to-run Athearn. In short, Herkimer OK freight train sets are merely reboxed Athearn items. SOOOO, it is darned interesting that when Herkimer jobbed out a freight car line from Hong Kong each item was a dead ringer for the Athearn cabeese, tankers and box cars they "replaced." Uncle Irv Athearn, who had been making some nice extra coin from Herkimer sales, must have been really pissed.
Herkimer train sets didn't survive the fifties (only the passenger car line, interesting, hmm?). The "OK" cars then are distributed in pretty little blister packs by good old MANTUA as "Crown", marketed as an "inexpensive secondary line" to the premium Mantua/Tyco cars. Now call me a monkey's uncle but don't call me stupid for seeing John Tyler's bitch-slap to his West Coast competitor: marketing dead-ringers of Athearn's cars as "inexpensive"--get it, CHEAP--alternatives to Mantua. Nice burn...
The ultimate irony in the "Crown" affair, apparently Tyco/Mantua's first co-venture with Asian manufacturers, is that it contains the seeds of their own eventual subjugation to cheap Asian labor: the eventual end of American-made Tyco. And, in this age when the entire center of the planet's economic gravity is shifting to Red China, perhaps even the roots of our own reduction to second-class world status.
Perhaps a lot of responsibility rides on the shoulders of little plastic and metal trains. And isn't it troubling that long-dead American-made miniatures of even-longer-dead American-made railroad technology are merely little hargingers of an even larger--and deader--ghost: the fast-fading shadow of American technological supremacy?
Born in the USA,
Magnolia Academy
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jlong
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Posted - September 17 2006 : 8:26:49 PM
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quote:John:
Your wedding tale is the train set version of "Grumpier Old Men's" Walter Matthau and Jack Lemmon showing up late for the wedding because they'd stopped off to fish...
I'd be divorced if I'd pulled that stunt: but, then you did bag the engines, eh? |
Yea, I recall that scene in Grumpier Old Men". And yes, I still have the NYC F3's. This was in 1983 and I got them for $250. I am totally insensative to weddings and think they are a boring, costly waste of time because they make marrige no different than signing courthouse papers.
I recall the ads for OK streamline coaches and maybe seeing them at shows. They were shorty coaches for small layouts, right? I have a set of AMT O gauge streamliners and they make me think of the OK HO models. Like you say, I saw mention of Herkimer consisting of Athearn components in the Model Trains buyers guide.
I am surprised that Athearn kept production in California for as long as they did.
John Long
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Posted - September 17 2006 : 10:56:51 PM
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Herkimer OK streamliners:
From the 1967 flyer...
"18 Kits: 9 HO scale 80', 9 HO scale 60'
all-metal car bodies, car ends & trucks"
They offered coach, astrodome, observation, baggage, baggage coach, sleeper, diner, postal baggage and dome observation in both shorty and full-length versions. Most shorties were $4.95 to $6.95, full-length a dollar more (these are kit prices.)
The full line was available illuminated and assembled for slightly more. They catalogued and sold spare and replacement parts as well as detail kits.
This quality American-made line lasted into the seventies. AMT/Kusan of Nashville marketed their similar line of HO extruded aluminum streamliners only in the mid-fifties, They are seldom encountered; their boxed sets extremely rare.
Non inferiora secutus...
Magnolia Academy
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Posted - September 19 2006 : 8:56:16 PM
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Hi Guys. I was reading about the MagAc's post on the OK Herkimer cars. I don't know if you know that they are still in business. They have a web site and have pdf files that lists all the cars available and current prices for kit or assembled cars. Their Prices have changed a little since 1967. Here is the link:www.okengines.com
Also has a information about other items. Need to check it out.
Carl
Numquam Immoderatio Satis Est
(Too Much Is Never Enough )
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jlong
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Posted - September 19 2006 : 9:26:41 PM
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Thanks for the link to the OK cars, Vintage HO. They look like a good deal at $25.00 a kit.
John Long
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Posted - September 19 2006 : 11:39:07 PM
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Vintage HO:
Pretty nifty download. I fly R/C aircraft so knew the motor division was live and kicking elsewhere (didn't realize they'd stayed in the states, how refreshing). Was, however, surprised the new incarnation retained the tooling for the streamliners. I'd assumed (wrongly) that the demise of Herkimer Tool Company and their departure from their long-time home in Herkimer, New York, meant the end of the HO line. That is good news, indeed, for all fans of heavy metal HO. Slap a rake of the full-length "OKs" (it'll take a while for me to get used to dropping the "Herkimer" apellation) behind a Cary FT pair powerd by some Hobbytown bulls and you'd have an all-American monster capable of compelling all your foreign-made HO cronies to change allegiance.
Thanks, V-HO!
MagAc
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Posted - September 21 2006 : 07:53:38 AM
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I won some more autions on ebay. I'm finding MIB red box Tyco is a bargain compared to much of the currently manufactured stuff. Especially those newly minted over priced instant collectibles. After jumping off the bandwagon for a moment, I felt some remorse. But it turns out I didn't really spend all that much.
John Long
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Posted - September 22 2006 : 1:14:00 PM
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John:
My only qualms about buying red box trains on net auction sites concern the psychology of the seller. Since these trains go for cheap--often with disappointed sellers voicing their surprise at the low outcomes--I've had to make it a point to remind sellers to package the items with great care, in spite of the relative pittance they sold for. Over the years I've had trains show up in carboxes with virtually no wrapping or padding. I've had sets wrapped with cars all tossed in one bag, track in another, with worthless transformers smashing the contents to plastic dust in imititation of pneumatic nutcrackers. With experience I've learned to carefully inform the seller of my packing requirements (often paying more for shipping than they'd allowed.) After receiving too many broken cab roofs, pilots and tender steps I'll frequently tell the shipper to simply toss the transformer off a bridge or use it as a doorstop rather than ship it with set.
With regard to your general point about old Tyco: once you've evaluated the intrinsic merit of your old red box blue box and green box ("Tyco Little Trains") trains--given what I've discerned as your appreciation of the grand old Americans--you'll be adding more to the collection--while it is still available...
MagAc
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Posted - September 22 2006 : 2:03:08 PM
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Magnolia, thanks for enlightening me on this. I never contacted any of the sellers but will do this from now on if there is concern. I do check into the seller's feedback. The way they write their descriptions helps clue me as to whether they know what they are doing or not. I've seen some tempting stuff but the way they photographed the stuff and described it backed me off. There are some pretty comical descriptions let me tell you.
One point I've always tried to make in collecting through the mail is to make nickle and dime purchases with a seller before making major purchases. That way I can get a feel for his integrity without getting burned in the process should he turn out to be a flake.
John Long
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Posted - September 22 2006 : 9:43:00 PM
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John:
When it comes time to ship boxed items it will pay to request shippers pack cars separately if the boxes no longer have their heavy cardboard or foam inserts. Too many sellers send cars or sets with items rattling around in the individual boxes, particularly cars and engines. Under those circumstances I can assure you items will arrive damaged. If they complain about the extra space just tell them to carefully open the end flaps and ship the small boxes flat. When it comes time to ship old Mantua steamers with plastic pilots and cabs, if they are not well- cushioned the plastic portions are particularly prone to breakage as the weight of the diecast boilers add momentum and force to jostled boxes. Tyco shipped with inserts and heavy rings of corrugated cardboard to cushion the pilot and cab. There was an additional heavy cardboard pad inserted between the engine and tender to insure the heavy fiber drawbar's integrity as well as further protect the plastic cab roof. Smashed pilots, cab roofs and broken drawbars are probably the most common and most aggravating shipping damage. It is worth the effort and a little extra moolah. There isn't a much worse feeling than opening a box rattling like the contents of a cheap pinata--especially when you remember how pristine the item looked in the auction photos--and knowing you now own it.
for what its worth...
MagAc
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Posted - September 22 2006 : 9:43:57 PM
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John:
When it comes time to ship boxed items it will pay to request shippers pack cars separately if the boxes no longer have their heavy cardboard or foam inserts. Too many sellers send cars or sets with items rattling around in the individual boxes, particularly cars and engines. Under those circumstances I can assure you items will arrive damaged. If they complain about the extra space just tell them to carefully open the end flaps and ship the small boxes flat. When it comes time to ship old Mantua steamers with plastic pilots and cabs, if they are not well- cushioned the plastic portions are particularly prone to breakage as the weight of the diecast boilers add momentum and force to jostled boxes. Tyco shipped with inserts and heavy rings of corrugated cardboard to cushion the pilot and cab. There was an additional heavy cardboard pad inserted between the engine and tender to insure the heavy fiber drawbar's integrity as well as further protect the plastic cab roof. Smashed pilots, cab roofs and broken drawbars are probably the most common and most aggravating shipping damage. It is worth the effort and a little extra moolah. There isn't a much worse feeling than opening a box rattling like the contents of a cheap pinata--especially when you remember how pristine the item looked in the auction photos--and knowing you now own it.
for what its worth...
MagAc
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Posted - September 22 2006 : 9:44:34 PM
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John:
When it comes time to ship boxed items it will pay to request shippers pack cars separately if the boxes no longer have their heavy cardboard or foam inserts. Too many sellers send cars or sets with items rattling around in the individual boxes, particularly cars and engines. Under those circumstances I can assure you items will arrive damaged. If they complain about the extra space just tell them to carefully open the end flaps and ship the small boxes flat. When it comes time to ship old Mantua steamers with plastic pilots and cabs, if they are not well- cushioned the plastic portions are particularly prone to breakage as the weight of the diecast boilers add momentum and force to jostled boxes. Tyco shipped with inserts and heavy rings of corrugated cardboard to cushion the pilot and cab. There was an additional heavy cardboard pad inserted between the engine and tender to insure the heavy fiber drawbar's integrity as well as further protect the plastic cab roof. Smashed pilots, cab roofs and broken drawbars are probably the most common and most aggravating shipping damage. It is worth the effort and a little extra moolah. There isn't a much worse feeling than opening a box rattling like the contents of a cheap pinata--especially when you remember how pristine the item looked in the auction photos--and knowing you now own it.
for what its worth...
MagAc
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Posted - September 23 2006 : 01:54:03 AM
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Re: OK streamliners - WOW. Those are beautiful. And a steal at todays prices... the cost of passenger equipment is staggering. Although I will say the new Broadway Limiited Zephyr cars are absolutely stunning. Still, these sound like a great way to get that steel look for half the price. Wish I was more into passenger stuff... they sound like an outfit worth supporting.
Re: shipping - be very careful when buying the Lionel Fundimensions HO that uses the plastic tray inserts. Those trays are more like cellophane in some cases. I had a U18B shipped to me that was in the original packaging, and packed very well besides... but the tray disintegrated from the loco shifting around and the couplers got destroeyd as a result. Not the seller's fault at all, just a victim of circumstance. Had to scrounge up a Lionel GP9 to get the proper couplers and trucks for replacement.
Re: classic toys: Oh how I remember starting out my first layouts not even all that long ago. Sytrofoam blocks, Lego buildings, hotwheel cars, and yes - even a Girder & Panel Sears Tower set for utimate effect. I sometimes cringe when I think about it, but I can't deny the purity of fun in those days.
That stupid Sears Tower G&P set. Arrgh. My dad, god bless him, kept a whole metric ton of my junk stored away for years after I moved out to college and beyond. But what was the ONE thing I REALLY wanted to find when I went back to get it all? And what was the ONE thing he "accidentally threw away"??? ARRRGH! I bought that set for $10 at a garage sale and will cost me over $300 to replace it today... no more Sears Tower for me.... [:(!]
Edited by - GoingInCirclez on September 24 2006 12:50:05 AM
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Posted - September 23 2006 : 10:32:39 AM
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You mentioned Ok Herkimer they have a website at the link below:.
http://www.okengines.com/
If you would like additional information about OK Herkimer Passenger Cars:
http://hoseeker.net/otherhotrains3.html
http://hoseeker.net/swapgallery/okherkimer
Larry
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Posted - September 24 2006 : 1:12:11 PM
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Toy Trains/Model Trains
The fascinating thing about offerings by Elgo Skyline and the early Kenner sets was how deliberately they were geared toward HO railroaders--similar to the way A.C. Gilbert encouraged American Flyer devotees to integrate Gilbert Erector components into their railroad empires. All in all, the early building sets, and Elgo models in particular, are striking and accurate representations of the post-war urban skyline and, as a result, are very eagerly sought today.
I don't think any of the modern cityscape offerings by Bachmann, for example, present any better representation of the integrated whole than those early building "toys" if properly "imagineered" into a hi-rail layout.
As for the heavy metal passenger cars...GO OK! I have a rake of four on the layout as we speak, propelled with aplomb by an A/B pair of ancient and venerable Pittmann powered Hobbytown E-Series diesels. Now that's eye-candy!
Magnolia Academy
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jlong
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Posted - September 29 2006 : 9:40:23 PM
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quote:aplomb by an A/B pair of ancient and venerable Pittmann powered Hobbytown E-Series diesels. Now that's eye-candy!
Magnolia Academy |
I was looking at Hobbytown E units on ebay. They are pretty sharp. I saw some shells and powerframe kits for sale to. Look like great wintertime projects.
My Tyco Shifter set arrived yesterday. I oiled it up and it runs really well. The ozone and hot grease aroma takes me right back to grade school. The set was 50 bucks (plus $10 shipping). You won't find quality like this in a steam engine set today for 50 bucks. The seller advertised it as "good condition". By TCA standards, "good" means scratched and dirty. This set strongly grades "like new". LMAO. My feedback was "better condition than described which is rare with ebay dealers". Often times they grade scratched dirty junk as "mint". Especially with Lionel.
John Long
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Posted - September 29 2006 : 11:59:31 PM
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John:
Lindsay, Hobbytown, Pittmann and company are the foundation material for some pretty spectacularly high-calibre American heavy-metal. Get one of those old growlers equipped with a massive DC-91 motor (PA-B or E-6, typically) and you'll be able to pull stumps. (The DC-91s found their way into the All-Nation O-gauge diesels, far larger than the HO Hobbytowns. Their drawbar pull on the All-Nations was quite impressive, so you can imagine what the HO versions can do.)
I'm glad, as well, that you concur with my oft-spoken high opinion of early Mantua/Tyco offerings, re: your "new" Shifter set. The entire line is unheralded, under-appreciated and represents a genuine bargain: benchmark standard, decades-old American-made electric trains for little more than their original MSRP... who woulda thunk it was still possible.
Magnolia Academy
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jlong
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Posted - September 30 2006 : 3:00:45 PM
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I wonder how many Shifters Tyco made in the late 50's and early 60's? 50,000,000? Seems they're everwhere and every kid had ine.
John Long
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Posted - September 30 2006 : 4:27:24 PM
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John:
The Mantua archivist who spirited away most of the company records after his reluctant retirement in October, 2001, when that venerable company closed its doors forever, reports that between the inception of the ready-to-run "Little Trains" Shifter in 1955 and 2001 the company produced something on the order of 47 Kazillion, Bajillion, millionty Shifters. (Oh, and 180 zillionty Shifter IIs.)
The huge numbers produced and length of the production run are, I think, ample testament to the soundness of the design and quality of the workmanship. Like its Booster, Prairie, Pacific and Mikado brethren the lowly Shifter is one of those HO gems you can remove from the box, lube, grease and run almost without fail even after decades of lying dormant. It is that calibre of performance that has had old Tycos likened to their O scale brethren in the orange boxes, and not without reason.
Sometime ago I penned an homage to the Shifter in another forum topic with a quote or two from the staff of RMC's product review of the Shifter II. As I recall they considered it (and the newly released "Prairie") as among the best American releases of steam locos in years. Pretty fine praise for a "crappy little throwaway toy train", eh?
Magnolia Academy
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jlong
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Posted - September 30 2006 : 10:05:00 PM
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Bargains is right. I just nabbed a 60's Tyco CBQ GP-20 and slant cupola caboose in excellent condition for $30 "buy it now". Major eye candy let me tell you. I've been looking for both. The seller says it runs fine and I trust him.
John Long
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Posted - October 01 2006 : 11:41:53 AM
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John:
Yeah, Tyco/Mantua engineers did a really terrific job on the China red CBQ Geep. When it arrives let me know if yours has the "GP-20" stamp on it. It is a small applique, white on black field in a white square, found just ahead of the cab. Early red box versions carry it. Many brown box versions don't (the CBQ version pictured in Tony's site doesn't). Also, if your version is equipped with the rare add-on dynamic brake count yourself lucky indeed. They're pretty scarce.
MagnoliaAcademy
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Posted - October 01 2006 : 5:57:49 PM
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| They could have a contest: Number of shifers vs. number of BN boxcars....
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jlong
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Posted - October 01 2006 : 6:39:03 PM
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Mag, the pic of it is on the fuzzy side and there appears to be a small square decal in the location you say. I can't make it out. No dynamic brake blister.
John Long
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Posted - October 01 2006 : 7:08:27 PM
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Interesting thought, GoinginCirclz...
most frequently encountered Tyco:
most numerous Tyco...
most common Tyco...
Candidates?
I dunno, a few spring to mind:
BN boxcar
Southern pulpwood car
4015 EMD in Warbonnet
8-wheel SF caboose
SF plugdoor box
UP "maintenance" gon
Virginian non-operating hopper
'Noogas
SF diesel switcher
piggyback flat
wm skid flat
texaco tank
other candidates, anyone?
Man, talk about a roll call of the humdrum.
MagAc
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Posted - October 02 2006 : 12:37:29 PM
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NH Boxcar
UP non-operating hopper
UP and BN gons
BM operating hopper
Baby Ruth and Gerber reefers
Rock Island Shark
Rock Island and Spirit of '76 C430
Chessie System (and Santa Fe?) Super630s
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