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 BLZ 231-761 a French Streamliner of 1933
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toptrain
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 Posted - August 13 2017 :  9:04:50 PM Link directly to this topic  Show Profile  Add toptrain to Buddylist
* It is a French Pacific 4-6-2 type the French called it a 231 and streamlined. All diecast. Only the number 231-761 is on the locomotive. The 231 is the type a 4-6-2 Pacific. The 761 is the locomotive number. It has bumpers like a European locomotive. Smoke deflectors and I do not have a tender for it. Yet! Truthfully all I can do is dream of one! They are so rare just seeing one is an almost pleasant experience.
frank
Edit 12-19-17 The prototype was built one of a group in 1916 for the ETAT as a standard steam locomotive. Streamlining was applied in 1933. It ran from Calais to Paris.




toptrain

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Edited by - toptrain on July 30 2019 08:58:31 AM
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microbusss
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 Posted - August 13 2017 :  11:19:11 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add microbusss to Buddylist
could be a Japanese loco
Since they do use buffers
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PGE33
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I'm guessing Trix.
Waiting for my resident tinplate / old stuff expert to chime in.
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DanMacK
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 Posted - August 14 2017 :  08:46:18 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add DanMacK to Buddylist
Found it. If you watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOhuygzRXhI - The second loco is what you have. It's a BLZ model of a French loco, from around 1948ish.

http://forum.e-train.fr/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=75463 has some info (In French)
So does http://www.train-jouet.com/BLZ/231/BLZ-231-Dossier.html

Looks like it came in green and black.

It's a rare piece for sure.


Edited by - DanMacK on August 14 2017 08:52:06 AM
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toptrain
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 Posted - August 14 2017 :  10:30:42 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add toptrain to Buddylist
I am amazed that you found info on this locomotive. When I saw it there was no tender that I recognized would go with it. Because one of the drivers is broken I know a complete repowering of the streamlined body would be necessary to get it running again. Well we will see what the future for this locomotive will be. Thank you, everyone.
frank

toptrain

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DanMacK
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I love a challenge Frank ;) Maybe keep an eye out on ebay.fr for BLZ parts. You might be able to get a junker and bring her back to her original glory.
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Chops124
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What are those dials sticking off the side? The archival photos do not
show those dials.
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toptrain
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* On the first ones made in 1946 those dials and brush holders for the motor.
frank

toptrain

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catfordken
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certainly is one of the first runs,the following pictures were off ebay,this one is a 20 volt ac 3 rail job,but it looks the same version and fetched 500 euros so must be pretty rare ken




this might also be usefull,
http://www.train-jouet.com/BLZ/BLZ.html
http://ho-2-et-3rails.forumgratuit.org/t18-blz-veterant-du-0-passe-au-h-o-scelle-bell

catfordken
if you cannot see the light at the end of the tunnel,try turning around

Edited by - catfordken on August 24 2017 07:08:34 AM
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toptrain
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 Posted - August 24 2017 :  08:29:57 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add toptrain to Buddylist
**** THE BLZ Pacific. ****
I knew this was an odd ball loco the first time I saw it. When do you get a chance to get a streamlined Pacific? Not often, that’s for sure. Because the dealer didn’t have the tender, or even know what it looked like, or anything about the maker of it, add to it the broken drive and missing front pilot truck. That’s why I got it for Twenty bucks. His loco should have had a center rail pick-up and it is completely missing. Right up to the to the time I opened the link from Dan and saw it was a three rail loco like a Marklin and read about the 20 volt AC motor I didn’t know it should have had a center rail pick-up. How different a loco this is, was all I seen. I just know the streamlined pacific’s don’t grow on trees and this was a neat engine body and with a little luck I can match a tender to it and convert it to analog DC, and have something special to run. So much for collector value. I’m making a new toy loco!
* The manufacture was a new one at the time the mid 1940’s, when they first started making model trains. Their first model trains were O scale. This was their fist HO locomotive and they listed it as being OO. Then they went and made it 3 rail 20 volt AC. Their trains were only sold in department stores, so only in the big cities. Then for some reason they chose a streamlined locomotive for their first one. BLZ is a combination of the three first letters of the names of the three men who financed to company. So much for history!
* My problem now it to get a drive to fit and look right in this body. Things like this can sometimes be very hard , or very easy. The driver size will need to remain close to the original size. I may be able to use the original frame and replace the drivers. This means that the spacing of the wheels will remain the same and the original main rods, side rods, and valve gear will all fit. You don’t know till you get started and into the kitbashing of this locomotive.
* This is so interesting that all my other projects will be stopped and I will go right into this one.

* Thanks for all the Help everyone. Ken your photos are of the same model I have. Great work! They will help a lot. Ken also isn't 500 euros over $1000. So I will be messing up a valuable loco again.
*** Ahhhh, it will be fun!
frank


toptrain

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Edited by - toptrain on August 24 2017 08:50:32 AM
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catfordken
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sadly frank the pound has dropped in value against the euro its about same,will keep my eyes peeled for the bits,nothing atm on ebay france,but one never knows does one ken
catfordken
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microbusss
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 Posted - August 24 2017 :  11:08:26 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add microbusss to Buddylist
I have seen Marklin use a "3rd rail" for their trains but they used nails or something like that in the middle of the track
but it being OO scale the bottom does look Lionel-ish hehe
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Erich
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 Posted - August 24 2017 :  1:47:45 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Erich to Buddylist
Hi Frank ! Nice Loco! metric srews on it I think! - Erich
Edited by - Erich on August 24 2017 1:51:13 PM
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Redwoods
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Sweet loco! The nice thing about AC motors is that they use field windings instead of permanent magnets. As long as the wiring is intact and the brushes are ok, the motor should be as strong today as when it was manufactured.
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DanMacK
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Looking forward to see what you do with her. By the time you replace the pieces with original parts, you'll probably end up with more in it than it's worth.

She's going to be a gorgeous loco Frank!
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Erich
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http://www.ebay.at/itm/Ancien-jeu-jouet-train-loco-BLZ-carenee-ETAT-231-761-et-tender-31-763-locomotive-/162641579920?hash=item25de318f90:g:OXsAAOSwjuBZnFM9


What about to leave the loco on a shelf, take time and try out your luck Frank? maybe the tender and other parts come your way surprisingly as the loco did! ! I had luck sometimes this way! - Erich

Edited by - Erich on August 25 2017 06:32:10 AM
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toptrain
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 Posted - August 27 2017 :  08:30:25 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add toptrain to Buddylist
quote:
http://www.ebay.at/itm/Ancien-jeu-jouet-train-loco-BLZ-carenee-ETAT-231-761-et-tender-31-763-locomotive-/162641579920?hash=item25de318f90:g:OXsAAOSwjuBZnFM9


What about to leave the loco on a shelf, take time and try out your luck Frank? maybe the tender and other parts come your way surprisingly as the loco did! ! I had luck sometimes this way! - Erich

Originally posted by Erich - August 25 2017 :  06:24:52 AM



Erich, Hi there. Nice to hear from you. The BLZ Pacific I have is going to be a 12 volt DC powered one. Next when I am done this little streamliner will look like little has changed. It should look all original. The nicer drivers I think will make it look a little better. I already started on the changing of it to DC. I have the necessary drivers and I have them mounted in the frame already. The metal of the old BLZ frame is strong and workable. I filed the axel groves wider to accept 1/8 inch axles. I had a set of 3 drivers, one is geared and the gear matches the worm gear on a mantua motor. I drilled out the frame to give clearance for the gear. Everything I have done to now fits very well. All the work I am doing is going well. A Mantus motor will fit easily inside the boiler casting. It appears to me that the original main rods and side rods will mount easily to this new drive. I am hoping that sometime next week I will have an operating BLZ locomotive. I will need to refinish the body sealing the holes that were for the brush holders. I want to get rid of the screw heads somehow if I can. I'll just keep looking at it and thinking of things to do.
Here are a few photos.

Frank

The first photo is of the original parts I don't need and will most likely throw away.




Next shows how the drivers and motor fits the original frame.




Next you see the frame and the groves I widened and the hole for the drive gear



Last The body on top of the drive.


toptrain

" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!

Edited by - toptrain on August 27 2017 08:37:32 AM
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toptrain
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 Posted - August 27 2017 :  09:53:32 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add toptrain to Buddylist
Here are 3 tenders I have that may go behind the loco. What do you think?

The mantua tender


The Varney tender


The Champ tender made by sakai

toptrain

" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!

Edited by - toptrain on December 22 2017 04:46:43 AM
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DanMacK
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The last one looks the most "European"

Maybe look at getting some Marklin trucks or something?
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toptrain
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 Posted - August 27 2017 :  1:59:10 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add toptrain to Buddylist
Here is the link that Dan and Ken posted.

http://www.train-jouet.com/BLZ/BLZ.html

Here you can see the loco in this thread.
frank





toptrain

" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!

Edited by - toptrain on August 27 2017 2:08:56 PM
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scsshaggy
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 Posted - August 27 2017 :  5:21:43 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add scsshaggy to Buddylist
I think the Mantua best matches the engine. The curved wall alongside the coal bunker on it and the Champ tender go better with streamlining than the straight sides of the Varney. The higher back of the Mantua looks better with a streamlined engine than the huge step down on the Champ.
Carpe Manana!
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toptrain
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 Posted - August 27 2017 :  7:55:45 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add toptrain to Buddylist
Don, yep it will be the Mantua. The height of not just the tender to the cab roof looks good but the deck where the fireman stands to get to the coal is the same height as the spot where the cab floor is. The Champ is too short and the Varney is too low in both height and its deck. Well, it'll be the Mantua.
frank

toptrain

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Erich
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Turns out nice, even I would prefer the champ tender! If you model a Europian loco, the engine with the mantua tender would be to long for most turntables here . Proportions also look better to me.
No space for axle bearings ?? -Erich

Edited by - Erich on August 28 2017 07:22:26 AM
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toptrain
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 Posted - August 28 2017 :  07:42:41 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add toptrain to Buddylist
quote:
Turns out nice, even I would prefer the champ tender! If you model a Europian loco, the engine with the mantua tender would be to long for most turntables here . Proportions also look better to me.
No space for axle bearings ?? -Erich

Originally posted by Erich - August 28 2017 :  07:05:33 AM



Erick, I am planning a surprise. All I can say is after I work on the tender it will look different, and fit into a smaller box. Erick, I am afraid that the original frame might weaken and crack if I continue to remove more of its metal, for I may have removed too much metal already.
frank

toptrain

" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!

Edited by - toptrain on August 28 2017 07:49:23 AM
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Erich
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 Posted - August 28 2017 :  08:49:30 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Erich to Buddylist
Very exiting Frank! looking forward to it! - Erich
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microbusss
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neato
Would it be odd IF I found the exact tender at the train show in Oct? hehe
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toptrain
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 Posted - August 30 2017 :  12:45:18 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add toptrain to Buddylist
Well somethings wrong with the drive, it is locking up. The drivers appear to be all ok. I will check the quartering. I can't find my spare 3 wheel side rods. The old rods holes are oblong and could be the problem. Tomorrow. I have to spend the today disappointed. I really don't want to work on that train today. Latter!
toptrain

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Erich
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What about to put a Mantua mechanism under it? Or any other?
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toptrain
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 Posted - August 30 2017 :  8:17:43 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add toptrain to Buddylist
quote:
What about to put a Mantua mechanism under it? Or any other?

Originally posted by Erich - August 30 2017 :  3:40:18 PM



To maintain the body mounting system on the original you would have to cut up the old frame for the inside metal sides, or make new ones. Modifying the Mantua frame could be just as hard. Last would be modifying the BLZ body to accept the Mantua frame. Then there is the last option #2, to pick up all part, and put them in a bag and throw them in the trash.
* As attractive as option #2 is I will continue to try to get a drive into this Boiler casting.

toptrain

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Edited by - toptrain on December 18 2017 8:18:03 PM
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toptrain
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 Posted - December 18 2017 :  8:09:22 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add toptrain to Buddylist
Well, here I am again. I have a drive that fits both the inside space of the boiler casting, and the three drivers fit inside the open space allowed for them. The drive is from A Liliput 4-6-0. I have the drive mounted inside the body casting. I need to move the front truck forward to match the openings in the castings for the wheels.
* You will see it with a tender I chose for it.


toptrain

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 Posted - December 18 2017 :  8:13:10 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add toptrain to Buddylist
Here is a close up of the cab to tender alignment. The Tender I am using is a Tyco-Mantua Pacific-Mikado tender. It is longer than the original. The width is the same as the BLZ Locomotive. I do want to add lines to the tender to give it the same appearance as the original one. All this extra work won't be done if I can't get the front truck wheels to line up with the casting.


toptrain

" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!

Edited by - toptrain on December 19 2017 06:18:28 AM
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Erich
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you can remove all hidden parts like the cilynders as marklin did on this streamlined loco

Edited by - Erich on December 19 2017 07:08:34 AM
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Erich
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toptrain
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 Posted - December 19 2017 :  07:35:18 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add toptrain to Buddylist
Erich, I have the Lilliput 4-6-0 drive in the boiler now. I need to extend the front truck forward so the wheels match the cuts in the streamlining made for them. I see no big problem with this only work which should be simple. Those French 231 locomotives like the Jouef one I have, were designed, unlike American and Teutonic designs where the cylinders are centered over the 4 wheel lead truck. They went and put the lead track forward of this location.
* On both of the drives, you have so nicely added, the cylinders are centered over the front 4 wheel truck. The bottom one is Marklin is the top a newer Lilliput drive? Good info, and a good idea. if you cant see it, why put it in if it requires more work to have it.

Here is the loco only so you can see the front truck not aligned yet.
frank

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Edited by - toptrain on December 19 2017 07:51:35 AM
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Erich
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Yes Frank I know what you mean , but if you move the truck forward it will touch the cylinders (in the case you dont extend the truck and use a longer custom pivot bar). if you extend the truck only, you can leave them in place.

Edited by - Erich on December 19 2017 08:05:03 AM
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 Posted - December 19 2017 :  08:22:46 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add toptrain to Buddylist
quote:
Yes Frank I know what you mean , but if you move the truck forward it will touch the cylinders (in the case you don't extend the truck and use a longer custom pivot bar). if you extend the truck you can leave them in place.


Originally posted by Erich - December 19 2017 :  07:49:37 AM



Erich, I am holding the drive and see what you mean. Well to move up this truck I need to replace the long centering pin with a screw. Then that square casting under the front truck I needs to grind away some of the casting so the wheels won't hit it.
frank

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Edited by - toptrain on December 19 2017 08:49:27 AM
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 Posted - December 23 2017 :  7:34:59 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add toptrain to Buddylist
* At this time the tender I'll be using is the Sakai tender for the 2-6-2 they made. As was noted this tender is the most European looking one of the three I have to choose from.
frank


toptrain

" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!

Edited by - toptrain on December 24 2017 08:31:46 AM
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toptrain
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 Posted - December 23 2017 :  7:41:32 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add toptrain to Buddylist
Here is a video of this Locomotive running with a short train.

Edit; So this old odd-ball streamlined loco has a new lease on its operating life. Now a kitbashing job needs to be done on the tender and a new paint job done to finish it. I am still not certain which railroad name will be on its side.
frank

https://www.flickr.com/photos/30431536@N03/38541665064/in/album-72157685468346870/

toptrain

" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!

Edited by - toptrain on December 24 2017 08:29:19 AM
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microbusss
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 Posted - December 23 2017 :  8:20:53 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add microbusss to Buddylist
quote:
Here is a video of this Locomotive running with a short train.
frank

https://www.flickr.com/photos/30431536@N03/38541665064/in/album-72157685468346870/

Originally posted by toptrain - December 23 2017 :  7:41:32 PM


Tootsietoy tankers! *steals*

noisy thing Isn't it?
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toptrain
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 Posted - December 24 2017 :  08:59:25 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add toptrain to Buddylist
Another photo taken just after the successful testing of the drive.
Who-Ray, Who-Ray, WhO-RAY!
frank

toptrain

" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!

Edited by - toptrain on December 30 2017 9:28:20 PM
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Erich
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 Posted - December 24 2017 :  1:58:54 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Erich to Buddylist
quote:
Another photo taken just after the successful testing of the drive.
Who-Ray, Who-Ray, WhO-RAY!
frank


Originally posted by toptrain - December 24 2017 :  08:59:25 AM



Well done Frank! Is this the Liliput drive mechanism? runs great as I could see on the vids you postet!

Erich
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toptrain
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 Posted - December 24 2017 :  9:53:41 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add toptrain to Buddylist
Erich, Yes the drive is from a Lilliput 4-6-0. It runs a little ruff at slow speeds. Most likely because it look new inside and was really broken in. I am going to put a cab interior in and show that the engineers side on this French loco is opposite from here in the states.
Frank

toptrain

" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
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Erich
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 Posted - December 25 2017 :  05:54:22 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Erich to Buddylist
last pic is great Frank! who is the guy on the roof from the building above engine cab? looks familiar to me!

Erich
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toptrain
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 Posted - December 25 2017 :  07:28:09 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add toptrain to Buddylist
quote:
last pic is great Frank! who is the guy on the roof from the building above engine cab? looks familiar to me!

Erich

Originally posted by Erich - December 25 2017 :  05:54:22 AM



It looks a little like Kenny. Do you think so.

MERRY CHRISTMAS ERICH. HAVE A VERY HAPPY HOLIDAY.

toptrain

" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!

Edited by - toptrain on December 25 2017 07:58:08 AM
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Erich
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 Posted - December 25 2017 :  3:10:33 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Erich to Buddylist
Merry Christmas to you Frank and all others here on the forum!

Erich
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toptrain
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 Posted - December 30 2017 :  9:36:41 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add toptrain to Buddylist
Here is a photo of my BLZ in its dark green paint wearing CRR of NJ letters. Pacific #868.
Still not done. I am resting. It is hard work for me.
frank
before I started with the yellow lines.







toptrain

" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!

Edited by - toptrain on December 30 2017 9:54:20 PM
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toptrain
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 Posted - December 30 2017 :  9:56:45 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add toptrain to Buddylist
First line.
frank


toptrain

" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
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RP model railroads
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 Posted - December 30 2017 :  10:16:55 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add RP model railroads to Buddylist
AWESOME WORK!!!
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in Heaven." - Matthew 5:16

Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/rpmodelrailroads

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Erich
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 Posted - December 31 2017 :  06:25:35 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Erich to Buddylist
Very nice Frank! looks great! Would you close the hole anyway? You can make a door for the airpump casing.
Attention to the Liliput drive!on some (not all) insulated wheels have the tendency to get loose!

Erich

Originally posted by toptrain - December 30 2017 :  9:36:41 PM

[/quote]

Edited by - Erich on December 31 2017 06:26:27 AM
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toptrain
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 Posted - December 31 2017 :  07:21:52 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add toptrain to Buddylist
quote:
Very nice Frank! looks great! Would you close the hole anyway? You can make a door for the airpump casing.
Attention to the Liliput drive!on some (not all) insulated wheels have the tendency to get loose!

Erich

Originally posted by toptrain - December 30 2017 :  9:36:41 PM



Originally posted by Erich - December 31 2017 :  06:25:35 AM

[/quote]

Erich, I could of closed it in but didn't do it. Here's my excuse, opps, reason! An air compress if not ventilated will over heat then seize. Fins are cast on the outside of the piston to dissipate heat and keep this from happening. It would seem that totally enclosing a compressor as was done on this locomotive may have caused overheating and ultimately seizure of the compressor pistons. All I,ve done is open up the compressor to outside air to help it keep cool. Also it saved me some work, and being naturally lazy I hoped no one would notice.
* A big OPPs because you caught me and my laziness is now showing.

Erich I do also remember the wheels falling of this particular Lilliput model. Also the chrome like finish on the driver flanges sometimes peeled off. So many of these were sold that replacement parts were not a problem to a finical person like myself who keeps a lot parts laying around. I have a few extra of these 4-6-0's just for parts.
frank

toptrain

" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!

Edited by - toptrain on January 10 2018 9:44:10 PM
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Erich
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 Posted - December 31 2017 :  12:28:04 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Erich to Buddylist
I know the heat problem on the air compressor Frank. But i thought that on this special locomotive as it is, a super ventilated or eventually a liquid cooled one is used!

Erich

Edited by - Erich on December 31 2017 12:29:10 PM
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