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 Posted - August 30 2006 : 2:11:47 PM
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Hey,
Well what does everyone make of this...
My initial thought was it must be a Mantua stuck in a TYCO box. But look at the end flap description. The numbers don't jive for TYCO with a 260 for an F-unit. And, I don't think TYCO ever called them F-7s...though Mantua did.
Hmmmmm....
Tony
Tony Cook
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Posted - August 30 2006 : 6:17:59 PM
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Can't vouch for them all (don't have a complete run of Mantua catalogs), but my late '70s Mantua EMD Great Northern, packed in the standard 411 series box, listed as an F-7 and numbered accordingly (as I recall) is in the old-style green GN paint. Makes the weird Big Sky EMD all the more odd. Still suspect, however, like the 430 in GN and PRR, Tyco was distributing small lots of pre-merger (to PC and BN) motive power. In my experience the transitional late red box to brown box era is a cataloger's and completists nightmare. Ah, for the good old days.
MagAc
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Posted - August 30 2006 : 6:18:54 PM
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GN F-7,
None of the Mantua F's had the both visible slots, that hold the trucks, by the brakeman door and rear porthole as this does, did they?
Looks nice.
Bob
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Posted - August 30 2006 : 6:32:43 PM
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re: the "F-7 GN"
All the post-Consolidated foods Mantua F-7s in the "twin-motored" series from '78 or whenever the heck it was are slotted just like the pictured Big Sky F-7 (to retain the old-style mantua power trucks.)
Seems folks are willing to bloody themselves pretty good over these anomalies. On the other hand I note a Georgia Central Civil War set that lacked only a box car door and a generic freight car truck was auctioned yesterday (together with a terrific old Hornby dublo steamer and some Lionel HO tenders) for less than $21. Go figger...
MagAc
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Posted - August 30 2006 : 6:41:35 PM
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Twin motored f-7s,
They made twin motored F-7s in the mid 70's?
Bob
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Posted - August 30 2006 : 6:56:56 PM
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Alco Fan:
The Tyler family's resurrected "Mantua" offerings in the late seventies (ostensibly in response to the disgruntled old traditional model railroading fan base lamenting the more toy-like offerings of Consolidated Foods Tyco, like the then-loathed and still-unlamented power torque motors), included a terrific series of traditional twin-motored F-7s in a variety of liveries, some bread-and-butter and some never previously offered (NYCentral freight and GN come to mind), even 411-26 Twin-motored Clear, a point of sales see-thru like the Tyco/Mantua clear EMD from the early sixties.
These guys can pull stumps out of the ground, like their earlier Tyco twin-motored brethren.
MagAc
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Posted - August 30 2006 : 8:36:53 PM
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Is there a general timefram for the styles of box labels?
WHat I mean is, stamped in a particular font, versus orange labels vesrus white labels, etc? Is this consistent? If so, it might help date pieces like this. The seller seemed to think it was 1975.
Personally, given the odd choice or roads for the E-units and others, I'm not inclined to think that Tyco released locos based on which real lines were in existence at the same time. There's always a market for certain "legacy" roads if you will... But that's just my own worthless opinion and I've been wrong before...
I will say this though: That combination of Gray-White-Blue loco in Dayglo Orange-Brown-White box is surprisingly pretty. Wish I had a box for mine to display it in!
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Posted - August 31 2006 : 12:24:03 AM
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Regarding the appearance and denouement of "mystery" liveries like the GN and PRR-dressed ALCOs, I'd suggest that the noticeable absence of these rarities in the marketplace is proof enough of my suggestion. I think, also, one has to consider once again the state of the hobby at the time of their (non) introduction as well as the state of railroading in the USA then. Trains magazine can be a great window into the merger-concious (some would say merger-crazy) state of affairs that affected a mode of transportation that was still pretty pervasive, organic and essential to the economy. Thirty years on, with tens of thousands of rail-line in abandonment or already a fading memory, "legacy" liveries to nostalgic model railroaders are just an acknowledged chunk of the common parlance. "Fallen Flags" has entered the common realm of discussion to modelers. But scan an RMC from 1975 and you'll get more of a sense of what I'm driving at.
I'm of the opinion these weird Tyco critters are products of 1971-73 and simply fell thru the cracks in the course of the sale of Tyco to Consolidated Foods. Unlike evidently TCF eccentricites like Tropicana box cars or Pittsburgh Paints Chemical cars or your really oddball Quaker Oats car, the 430s are more "Mantua-like" in construction and finish. Their market attention was still squarely focussed on model railroaders, hence their heavy advertising in MR magazine, for example. The doldrums of goofy EMD E's and so-called "GG-1s" and kid-focussed Chatanoogas and transformers and A-Team and Rambo and all the sorry rest of it lay in the cheaper, sadder future of a Tyco so eviscerated by such choices that the Tyler family felt compelled to resurrect Mantua as a quality alternative before the seventies were over.
To put it succinctly, the Big Sky and PRR 430 are just too pretty to have escaped distribution on manufacturer's whim. When you develop a sense of just how "hand-in-glove" guys like Irv Athearn and John Tyler were with the advertising arms of their real-life railroad counterparts I think you have the answer. Since Lionel's debut of the scale NYC Hudson Madison Avenue realized the power of the toy train as FREE ADVERTISING. Just scan some of the literature on Santa Fe's involvement with Lionel, or Fairbanks Morse when introducing the Trainmaster. Now, if you're a pitchman for the new and exciting Penn Central or BN, do you really want your miniature world counterparts perambulating around in yesterday's PRR or GN?
MagAc
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Posted - August 31 2006 : 12:10:48 PM
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Hey Guys,
I think the odd thing about this TYCO Great Northern F-unit is the box flap description. TYCO used 224 for single F-9As and 248 for double set F-9s. This 260 model identifier seems bogus, but then perhaps just TYCO doing its thing.
Don't have any Mantua catalogs from 1978-newer before me right now...I'm at work...but doesn't anybody off hand know the numbering they used for their F-7s???
Also the labeling of this model as an "F-7A" is odd for TYCO. Believe TYCO also stood by the claim it was an F-9A and not an F-7A. Think it was Mantua with the company's return in the late '70s that began calling this model an F-7 and not an F-9.
Though despite all this apparent errors, the box flap certainly does look authentic TYCO.
Regarding the claim to it being from 1975. Think that is just a typical eBayer assumption based on the box's copyright. That type of box was around from many years, but primarily it was mid-'70s to early '80s.
Further investigation of the F-unit model may point out its age. Review the trucks; numberboards; and radiator grills and you can place it as mid-'70s I believe. It is very likely contemporary with the recently unearthed Alco Century 430 in similar Great Northern livery.
Ahhh, part of the fun of TYCO! Even today, we still find NEW items!
Tony Cook
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Posted - August 31 2006 : 12:30:38 PM
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MagAc - Excellent thoughts as always. With deferential respect to your points, I can say I'm inclined to agree with them, for the "most part". Regarding the choice of roadnames, it was pointed out in another thread that these trains were likely distributed with regional appeal; that is, IC units in the heartland, BN out west, Chessie out east, and so forth. I guess what I'm saying is it might have made sense for a few GN or PRR units to see limited distribution, in those areas where they would have local sentiment and appeal going for them. If Tyco was in business to make money selling trains, surely there was still money to be had selling the fallen flags to modelers. I mean, they also sold stuff that never existed too, right?
Your point about Santa FE and free advertising is well taken. My, how times have changed - to where roads like Union Pacific are now CHARGING toymakers for the luxury of using their marks. As for a marketing exec wanting to promote the "new Burlington Northern", as discussed on another thread, you'd think they'd have insisted on getting the paint schemes right! [:P]
At any rate, I can see where your opinion holds a lot of plausibility. Yet as Tony pointed out, there's a whole 'nother set of clues out there. Guess we'll never know for sure.
Tony - 260-26 - hmmm. So, do you think there are at least 25 more of these "F7's" to find? Perish the thought!
Was Tyco consistent in using catalog numbers for one model, or could it have beeen a series of similar themes using different models? Example, instead of 260 being F7s exclusively, could it have been some other series that perhaps included other diesels or freight cars and the like?
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Posted - August 31 2006 : 1:38:08 PM
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Re: Big Sky EMD:
Tyco's numbering system was adhered to quite religiously, right up 'til the sale to Consolidated Foods (huge hint.) I think these anomalies represent many little fiefdoms at old-and-new-Tyco being called into question, intellectual and corporate territory being staked out in the absence of Tyler family management (VERY, VERY hands on during their tenure, just like JL Cowan at you-know-who), and plain and simple confusion created while the dust was settling at Consolidated Foods Tyco.
I believe the cost of setting up masks and painting jigs created a situation (again, like at Lionel) where adherence to prototype sometimes died at the hands of cost-analysis (NH during the McGinnis years caused all the model train manufacturers fits with their ever-transmogrifying paint scheme--Mrs. McGinnis couldn't make up her mind). This, in part, explains the just-plain-wrong paint on many Tyco liveries (and many other manufacturers). The pre-production staff end up being supplied with preliminary paint schemes that never went into road practice. Also, I suspect, as GinCz hints, just plain haste and indifference played the occassional role. Cost cutting is still the most likely culprit: reluctance to re-do established jigs and masking blocks. That, and the Keep-it-simple, stupid philosophy that, for example, resulted in all that nifty routing and manufacturing info being no longer applied to Tyco freight cars after the Consolidated take-over. A pre-CFTyco Sante Fe 40 ft. box car carries all manner of such applied info, the Consolidated Foods version is pretty much herald and car number only...pretty sad.
My suspicion, like the other fans who've responded to this forum topic, is that the GN Big Sky EMD is legit. Hell, it is too pretty to complain about it one way or another. I've pointed out CF Tyco's muddled transitional stock numbering system anomalies in other forums: wrong labels, hand lettered labels and, most commonly, no labels. Seeing the F-7 vs. F-9 on a box with a bizarre stock prefix seems par for the Tyco course. Arguably, the errors just make it all the more "authentic" (and spiffy!)
Still wish the oddball 430s had made it into more general release, however, they are real beauties.
MagAc
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Posted - August 31 2006 : 3:56:26 PM
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Tyconauts:
In my hast to blither on about the political state of things circa the mid-70's at Woodbury Heights I forgot to mention:
If memory serves Mantua's numbering system for EMD-Fs:
(The Mantua catalogs from prior to '78 use standard Tyco stock numbers where applicable--there is, of course, a whole range of valve gear, power trucks, motors, couplers and so on with Mantua numbers, generally upper 700s into the 800s for passenger, freight and power trucks and 4 digit numbers for motors and parts, so numbers, as Tony pointed out are:
T224: single power A
T225: non-power A
T226: twin power A
T229: single power B
T230: non power B
(respectively AC and HC for chrome As and Bs)
resurrected Mantua, as I recall, is:
409: B non-powered
410: A single-power
411: A twin-power
(I think later can-motored A's are "413" and ABB combos are "418")
If my memory has farted out on me and these are wrong I apologize before I take my beating...
by the way, I think the last dying gasp Mantua Chinese-made EMDs are 423 for A's and 412 for B's; so much for clarity and continuity!
MagAc
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Posted - August 31 2006 : 10:03:18 PM
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Hi Guys. Tony, I found the answers your looking for. I went into my files and right in my Tyco folder was a single page Catalog with all the info. Included is a scan of the page. At the top of the Page it states that this was a Special Run of F-7As 4 Roadnames And an Undecorated. That is probably why they used the 260 Group Number. The date at the bottom is 1976. Carl
Numquam Immoderatio Satis Est
(Too Much Is Never Enough )
Edited by - VintageHO on September 19 2006 8:01:53 PM
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Posted - August 31 2006 : 11:24:27 PM
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Carl:
WOW! You sure solved that mystery succinctly! It begs a philosophical question, though...regarding the mindset of old Mantua hands itching to satisfy their model railroading customer base with old Mantua mu-2 power. Interesting, also, that reference to Mantua power trucks being "back by popular demand." Trouble in Power Torque city? This reinforces what other old Mantua/Tyco hands have always said about Mantua being "reintroduced" by the Tyler crew to satisfy disgruntled modelers disenchanted with CF Tyco's growing toy emphasis.
Also interesting that those two "mystery" 430s are Mantua-powered and in 2 of the same liveries as the 260-series "special runs." Simply put, did they do a special run of 430s as well?
You are a wealth of information, sir,
tip of the cap to ya!
MagAc
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Posted - September 02 2006 : 11:20:59 PM
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Hey, so I wasn’t so far off in assuming they were after the legacy market after all? What a wonderful assortment – the Pennsy and UP versions are also very striking.
The main question I have then is, with the GN being 260-26… and there being only 4 others listed… where are the other 21? Or how did Tyco arrive at Catalog numbers? This could be a very important clue for those wanting to “Fill in the gaps”. Maybe there never were any?
Also, as MagAc asked, I wonder if the other 430s would fall into this “Special release” class? And pity that Tyco never saw the light from here and ditched the PowerTorque for good.
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Posted - September 03 2006 : 12:28:34 AM
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GinCz:
I think, in a twisted sense, "Tyco" did "see the light", as you so eloquently put it, and rejected the direction CF Tyco was taking with the old family enterprise. This "special release" episode seems to be an interesting bellweather moment for armchair students of the company's history. It seems to most-emphatically define the split between company factions who wished to concentrate on satisfying the needs of what were becoming, evidently, two mutually exclusive markets: model railroading versus toy trains. Hence, Mantua, the original "Tyler Company" is reborn. There is no other conceivable market for "260-99 undecorated" except the same fellas buying undecorated Athearn, Atlas and company: hardcore modellers, fellas who wouldn't have a power torque motor in the stable for fear of their peers catching them with same.
As for the twenty-five other EMDs, let's see the Tyco stock numbers:
1)B&O
2)CP
3)ACL
4)SF Freight
5)C&O
6)DRG
7)NH
8)SF Passenger
9)PRR Freight
10)CN
11)CBQ
12)PRR Passenger
13)UP
14)AEC
15)PCentral
16)Amtrak
18)CNVIA
19)CPrail
20)BN
21)Chessie
22)Conrail
23)Spirit of 76
24)CottonBelt
25)Clear
What are the strays? Does the SF freight Warbonnet carry the same stock number as the old SF freight it superseded? Chrome B&Os and SFs carried a HC and AC suffix to their respective "regular" stock numbers but should they be counted as separate and distinct offerings?
How's that for mud-in-the-water?
MagAc
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 Posted - September 03 2006 : 10:39:49 AM
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WOW!
What an interesting find on the TYCO Deluxe F-7s from '76! Certainly answers all our wrinkled foreheads this week over that 260-series number and odd GN F-unit.
One wonders if the response to this offering in 1976 might not have possibly been the inspiration for the return of MANTUA just a year or two later.
Really Great Info! THANKS a million Vintage HO for sharing this with us.
Tony Cook
HO-Scale Trains Resource
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Posted - September 03 2006 : 8:57:17 PM
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click on link below to view model railroader ad from july 1976 issue promoting tyco's f unit back by popular demand. retail price of $16.00
 Attachment: 09_03_0.zip ( 172119bytes )
Edited by - Brianstyco on September 03 2006 11:16:53 PM
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Posted - September 19 2006 : 8:07:38 PM
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Hi Guys. Just wanted to let you know that I was able to get a much better scan of the Tyco Deluxe F7 catalog page. I updated the original post with the new picture. look back to see new scan. You should be able to copy it and and print out a page that looks as good as the original. Carl
Update: I was working with photoshop and have an much better copy. I have added it to this post. Carl
Numquam Immoderatio Satis Est
(Too Much Is Never Enough )
Edited by - VintageHO on September 21 2006 09:24:34 AM
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jlong
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Posted - September 21 2006 : 6:34:07 PM
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OK guys, the Tyco sky blue F7 is totally cool! The way I read it, it's an improved version with the MU-2 motor, correct? If so, can anyone tell me how it runs compared to the earlier quality red box stuff?
John Long
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Posted - September 22 2006 : 1:31:53 PM
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John:
Have both the old and new mu trucks galore. While none of these "deluxe" Tycos that I'm aware of (without a box who can tell? Except GN and undecorated model the shells look like old red box tyco offerings right down to the engine cab numbers.)
I assume the characteristics to be the same as the mu-2s in the 1978 411 series Tycos. The operating characteristics, to me, are indistinguishable between old and new (assuming similar maintenance, lubrication and approximate running hrs.) The one negative aspect is these new trucks are mounted using a more flimsy gimballing system. The early system is more robust.
Magnolia Academy
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