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Eddystone
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 Posted - November 07 2015 :  2:13:39 PM Link directly to this topic  Show Profile  Add Eddystone to Buddylist
My name is Glen, and I live in Pennsylvania. My equipment is straight DC, not DCC. I would appreciate some advice on the Mantua steamers I have. Some are new from the box with can motors, and some are old die-cast Mikados with many (scale) miles on them. Some are exceedingly smooth while others are not and are noisier, as well. Some of the open frame engines are excellent. I have achieved good results on some that had been long neglected an responded well to a clean and lube and maybe a paper shim under the motor. I am about to take a systematic look at them all and decide on some basic principles. I was thinking of putting can motors in all of the open frame machines but am now planning to replace the old magnets with rare earth and look for fore-aft play in the armatures.

One question I have is whether it would be a good idea as a general rule to replace the original worm on the armature shaft with one made of brass or another material? Anyone have specs to look for or sources?

Is gear wear a problem in general, and can worn gears make the loco less smooth and quiet? Can this be adjusted out with gear lash, or do you usually need to replace one or both gears?

I have noticed that there is a fair amount fore-aft play in some of the armatures. Anyone know of a source or specification for washers to take up that space?

Any other advice would be welcome, as well. Thanks.
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Barry
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 Posted - November 08 2015 :  11:41:09 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Barry to Buddylist
Hi Glen. I'll be looking forward to see what responses you get. I have a few older Mantua locomotives with the open frame motors that I've gotten to run fairly well. I've replaced the magnets in each of them since that is a relatively easy step to take. Most certainly thorough cleaning. I've not replaced any gears and I have noticed the armature movement that you talk about. One thing I have found with the motors is that when I'm adjusting the motor mounting position, is that things seem to run easier if there is a little "slack". It seemed to me that if I had the gear interface too close, I would have trouble going from forward to reverse and such. And I did find in one case (maybe similar to when you used a paper shim), that if I tightened the front motor mounting screw too tight, it wouldn't go. Anyway, be interested to see what responses you get.
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Barry
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 Posted - November 08 2015 :  5:33:55 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Barry to Buddylist
I was reminded of a site that has a good amount of information regarding cleaning and maintaining a locomotive. It is directed to the care of brass locomotives, but much of the information applies to all locomotives. Caboose Hobbies.

Regarding optimal performance, one thing has come to mind for me several times. That is, when you are controlling the throttle of a DC locomotive (vintage or not probably), it's like you may try to get all your locomotives to perform top notch and equally well, but each locomotive will likely be different, if only slightly. So when I "drive" them, each one is like driving a different car . . . different acceleration and braking . . . ?
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bitlerisvj
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 Posted - November 08 2015 :  10:20:15 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add bitlerisvj to Buddylist
Hi Glen,
If you are capable of replacing the old open frame motors with can motors, that is the BEST solution. The old Mantua open frame motors can be mode to be ok if they are not bad to begin with. The magnets can be replaced with neodymium and that helps a LOT. However, that does not help the very common problem of back and forth movement of the armature. You can add fiber washers from Kadee (the truck washers) and that may help, but do this only if you plan on replacing the magnets, otherwise it will degrade the motor significantly if you remove the armature to add these washers. You can also split the washers and force them onto the shaft, but that is a bit tricky. I have done it, so it can be done.
Back to the gears, while they are not the best gear ratios, I have never seen any Mantua plastic gears worn out. They are very strong. I am not say that it has never happened, but it is rare. The gears are the least of your problems. The biggest problem is the back and forth movement of the armature, followed by the magnets.
Regards, Vic B.

Vic Bitleris
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Barry
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 Posted - November 11 2015 :  11:43:58 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Barry to Buddylist
Hi Vic, I've got a couple questions about your treatment of the armature movement. First off, do you feel the treatment you provided with the split Kadee washers was significant enough that it is worth doing? Secondly, are you saying that the washer placement to reduce shaft play causes enough drag that without a magnet replacement there are problems? And lastly, I'm thinking you're splitting the Kadee washers because there a bit too thick? Reason I ask, is that I'm fussing with an old open frame Mantua motor and drive train now, and as long as I've got things apart, this would be an ideal time to try that washer business. Thanks Vic.
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scsshaggy
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 Posted - November 11 2015 :  2:28:42 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add scsshaggy to Buddylist
With the original metal magnets, the whole motor is part of the magnetic field. If you take the motor apart and then put it back together, the field will be permanently weakened. This is not so with the rare earth magnets or ceramic magnets, so if you take the motor apart, plan on replacing the original magnet with rare earth magnets.

Splitting the washers (cutting from the hole to the edge) provides a way to add one to the shaft without taking the motor apart.

Carpe Manana!
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Barry
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 Posted - November 13 2015 :  2:07:04 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Barry to Buddylist
Don, have you used this technique of reducing shaft play and had it result in improved performance?
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scsshaggy
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 Posted - November 13 2015 :  2:22:36 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add scsshaggy to Buddylist
quote:
Don, have you used this technique of reducing shaft play and had it result in improved performance?
Originally posted by Barry - November 13 2015 :  2:07:04 PM


Not exactly. I once made a split washer for spacing in an MDC Mogul with an open frame motor that was just plain jamming without it and that did help. Later I noticed that things were out of line because the motor was falling apart and when I fixed that problem, I no longer needed the washer.

Theoretically, the end play can result in some downhill lurching, but when I've put in the rare earth magnets, the added torque cured the problem by the brute force method. I never got around to trying that kind of tuning. Enough people talk about it that I think there must be something to it, though.

By the way, Vic who brought up the subject, is also on a forum about remotoring and regearing and I have the impression that he's one of the more expert members, there.

Carpe Manana!
Edited by - scsshaggy on November 13 2015 2:26:15 PM
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Barry
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 Posted - November 15 2015 :  11:07:31 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Barry to Buddylist
What is the link to the forum on remotoring and regearing Don?
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scsshaggy
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 Posted - November 15 2015 :  4:02:22 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add scsshaggy to Buddylist
quote:
What is the link to the forum on remotoring and regearing Don?

Originally posted by Barry - November 15 2015 :  11:07:31 AM


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/repowerandregear/info

Carpe Manana!
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bitlerisvj
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 Posted - November 19 2015 :  11:42:51 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add bitlerisvj to Buddylist
Hi Barry and Glen, I have done the split washer bit and while it does the job, it is a bit of a pain to insert. If you feel you must keep the old Mantua open frame motor, then replace the original magnet with neodymium magnet(s). This way, you can safely remove the armature without worrying about losing the magnetism and you won't have to split the washers. As long as you are running with DC only, the old motor with new magnet(s) is a fine solution, but you do need to fix the back and forth movement, it really does cause issues.
Regards, Vic B

Vic Bitleris
Edited by - bitlerisvj on November 19 2015 11:43:49 AM
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toptrain
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 Posted - November 19 2015 :  1:12:03 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add toptrain to Buddylist
We are talking about locos with tenders, and not locos being modified to run on DCC. Now I know like many here what needs to be done to get a Mantua steam loco running good. No where is there anything about replacing the motor with another motor or a can motor. It is only changed after servicing if you find the motor to have bad windings, or a weak magnet. Mantua locomotives last a long time as originally built, whether ready to run or a assembled kit. Any open frame motored, metal frame loco, with right side loco pick-up, and left side tender pickup, Is the same. Mantua, Tyco, Penn-Line, John English, Roundhouse, Aristo Craft (new One), Bowser, Varney, Most brass locomotives, were all made in this way. Gilbert wasn't because of no loco pick-up and tender only pick-up of both rails. Everything else is the same , again except for the early designed Hudson's.
Most important. If it moves, keep oiled. If a part of the electrical circuit keep oiled and clean.
frank

toptrain

" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!

Edited by - toptrain on November 19 2015 1:20:56 PM
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toptrain
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On Pingynp

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 Posted - November 19 2015 :  2:01:24 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add toptrain to Buddylist
Some good advice from Sean, "Mustang N Trains ".

All very good info is by Sean and it is he who deserves the credit for formulating this info.

Tyco post heading.


Post; click to make larger.

toptrain

" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!

Edited by - toptrain on November 19 2015 2:02:56 PM
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Autobus Prime
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 Posted - November 19 2015 :  2:05:09 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Autobus Prime to Buddylist
Glen from PA:

Your Mantua steamers are unfixable. Mail them all to me for proper disposal. ;)

Neodymium magnets are great for these, and the washers are a good suggestion. One problem that is harder to fix is a worn front bearing. I have run into these on the small PM-1 motors (the small angle-mount job on Mantua switchers and some of the downgrade-era larger steam). It causes a screeching sound at high motor speeds.

Cleaning and polishing the commutator, and cleaning out the carbon from the commutator grooves, is another good idea. A benefit found with open-frame block-magnet motors, not available with many enclosed motors, is that all of this maintenance is easy to do!


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Autobus Prime
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 Posted - November 19 2015 :  2:06:01 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Autobus Prime to Buddylist
quote:
Glen from PA:

Your Mantua steamers are unfixable. Mail them all to me for proper disposal. ;)

Neodymium magnets are great for these, and the washers are a good suggestion. One problem that is harder to fix is a worn front bearing. I have run into these on the small PM-1 motors (the small angle-mount job on Mantua switchers and some of the downgrade-era larger steam). It causes a screeching sound at high motor speeds. The only way to fix this would be to change the bearing; it's a simple shape but I don't know if anybody sells them.

Cleaning and polishing the commutator, and cleaning out the carbon from the commutator grooves, is another good idea. A benefit found with open-frame block-magnet motors, not available with many enclosed motors, is that all of this maintenance is easy to do!



Originally posted by Autobus Prime - November 19 2015 :  2:05:09 PM


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Eddystone
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 Posted - November 24 2015 :  7:51:55 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Eddystone to Buddylist
quote:
Glen from PA:

Your Mantua steamers are unfixable. Mail them all to me for proper disposal. ;)

Originally posted by Autobus Prime - November 19 2015 :  2:05:09 PM



Hey! ;-)
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