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 Posted - December 03 2014 : 11:42:48 AM
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I noticed someone in another post said they used this stuff in their drive trucks.
Be aware that lithium grease does thicken over time, sometimes VERY thick.
Example:
This was in a Rivarossi E8 I was tidying up for my LHS pal.
It took many hours of digging and scrubbing to remove this goo.
It also got up the motor shaft, and only came out after many apps. of oil.
Of course, this guy put WAY too much in, but still, Yuck!!
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Posted - December 03 2014 : 11:52:15 AM
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The problem with that looks to be due to a frothing effect. If you just spray it on directly, there's lots of air bubbles in the grease which can just increase with gears meshing. I've taken the can of spray lithium and used the same trick that ppl use for transferring spray paint from the can to a jar and using a bent straw. Then I apply it with a brush. Lithium is very plastic friendly which is why I prefer it.
Tim
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Posted - December 03 2014 : 3:23:57 PM
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Tim,
A word of caution.
lithium grease is made with petroleum distillates among other things.
I have found to many models damaged from petroleum lubricants.
My advice would be find a more suitable product. Most plastics will
degrade from contact with petroleum grease
Regards John
You hit home runs not by chance but by preparation. <> Roger Maris
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Posted - December 03 2014 : 3:30:52 PM
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I give any peanut butter grease a soak in 91% alcohol; contact cleaner will flush it out even faster. Not only did he use way too much, but the Lithium looks to have attracted moisture and oxidized the brass.
I still swear by Super Lube grease, which is available at Harbor Freight. It's an incredible lubricant, and I've had it in some locos for 20 years with no signs of oxidation or hardening.
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - December 03 2014 : 4:27:43 PM
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I myself use the super lube as mentioned above. I use a toothpick to apply to wherever it's needed. Great stuff. Big tube will last a long time and cheaper than grease meant for trains like Labelle.
" Heck with counting 'em rivets, TRAINS ARE FOR FUN! Not called the Mad Scientist for nothing either!"
Edited by - Redneck Justin on December 03 2014 4:29:06 PM
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Posted - December 03 2014 : 5:18:57 PM
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RJ:
Super Lube is a multipurpose synthetic grease with Teflon. Labelle grease and Hob-E-Lube are the same general type of thing. They might even come out of the same barrel.
Multipurpose grease is basically an emulsion of oil and a specialized soap. The oil can be natural or synthetic. When it's lithium soap, you get lithium grease. The Teflon is dry powder added to the grease as an 'extreme pressure (EP) additive'. In situations with high contact forces (hello, PT pinion), grease can get squeezed out. The dry powder stays to provide lubrication.
Any grease lubricant is basically an oil delivery system. When sheared and chewed by gears, the bonds break between the oil and the soap, and the lubricant acts just like oil. After it flows out, the bonds reform. Eventually the oil tends to leave. Heat, oxidation, and attrition during use causes this. Dust and dirt collect. At some point, the result is a dirty, waxy soap with most of its oil gone. That's the Rivarossi peanut butter. Time to wash it out and regrease.
JRG1951: What sort of damage have you seen from petroleum lubricants? The reason I ask is that I've seen this warning before, often on the MR forum, but the information I have from plastics industry literature all says that petroleum lubricants are OK and in fact recommended for engineering plastics. This is one of those things I want to get to the bottom of someday. :)
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Posted - December 03 2014 : 6:45:45 PM
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I'll have to look for some Super Lube. I have some synthetic pneumatic oil for my nail guns. Wonder if that would work?
Tim
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Posted - December 03 2014 : 10:36:55 PM
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The main negitive problems have been caused by 3in1 oil. It seems to react and make the plastic brittle. I have seen this in a Bachmann steam engine and in Athearn gears in their trucks. These were not age failures, but clearly from the lubrication. If you look at lithium grease MSDS sheets the mixtures vary a lot from brand to brand. Many problems I have seen were not in the drive train, but the lubricant warping the plastic body and frame.
I used brake fluid to strip models, back in the day, now many plastics will deform. All plastics are not created equal. I guess I am of the school of better safe than sorry.
Well that is all I have to say about that, John
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Posted - December 03 2014 : 11:08:39 PM
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Regarding the green color in my photo, this was due to green paint getting in from the sideframes, which were also painted by the green paint guy.
I did manage to remove all of the grease, which was the consistency of chewing gum.
It left a very sticky residue, which took even longer to clean out.
Good old 99% alcohol and then Sunlight dish soap.
Evan
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Posted - December 04 2014 : 12:28:06 AM
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The paint job isn't that bad.  The green didn't get anywhere near the dummy axle. I've seen it many times in old brass geared locos where the oil has leeched out of the grease and moisture has intruded. It's generally superficial and cleans right off.
Autobus, Super Lube and Labelle 106 are very different. 106 is thicker, and even has a tacky feel to it, probably to reduce slinging, but is not as slick. I was amazed that it was sticky enough to bog down my old Bachmann pancake motored 4-4-0. I know those pancakes are hardly powerhouses, but it is a grease, after all.
It's probably better in open worm situations, but it will still sling. I can't speak for Hob-E-Lube.
The Tyco Depot
Edited by - NickelPlate759 on December 04 2014 12:29:11 AM
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Posted - December 04 2014 : 11:41:16 AM
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quote:
Autobus, Super Lube and Labelle 106 are very different. 106 is thicker, and even has a tacky feel to it, probably to reduce slinging, but is not as slick. I was amazed that it was sticky enough to bog down my old Bachmann pancake motored 4-4-0. I know those pancakes are hardly powerhouses, but it is a grease, after all.
Originally posted by NickelPlate759Â -Â December 04 2014Â :Â 12:28:06 AM
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Ah, so I guess they don't come out of the same barrel, then. :) Hob-E-Lube (which is what I use) and Super Lube still might, though. Hob-E is light and smooth in texture, I guess probably #0 grease with the Teflon added.
Consistency is pretty similar to Lubriplate motor-assembly white grease, which I also used on models for a while. That's a #0 grease without teflon, but with zinc EP additive...I don't know what the plastic manufacturers would think about that, but it never seemed to hurt anything.
And then there is the stuff I was using 20 years ago but probably should have saved and sold. Little brown tubes of mysterious brown grease with "Lionel" written on them. I had a pile of them, they came with a bunch of Lionel Riva HO I found. They looked like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lionel-HO-Or-O-Gauge-Lubricant-Tubes-Rare-Color-/390987126317
Gad. Anything that says "Lionel". Anything...
quote:
I used brake fluid to strip models, back in the day, now many plastics will deform. All plastics are not created equal. I guess I am of the school of better safe than sorry.
Well that is all I have to say about that, John
Originally posted by JRG1951Â -Â December 03 2014Â :Â 10:36:55 PM
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Yes, I heard that brake fluid could leave some modern plastic models damaged, weak, and useless. The price of those modern plastic models has the same effect on me. So I don't expect to encounter that problem in the near future. :D
quote:
The main negitive problems have been caused by 3in1 oil. It seems to react and make the plastic brittle. I have seen this in a Bachmann steam engine and in Athearn gears in their trucks. These were not age failures, but clearly from the lubrication. If you look at lithium grease MSDS sheets the mixtures vary a lot from brand to brand. Many problems I have seen were not in the drive train, but the lubricant warping the plastic body and frame.
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Hmmmmmmm....gears are turning...
3-in-1 is 95% 10-weight mineral oil, 2% naphtha, and 3% citronella oil to make it smell nice. I don't see how mineral oil or naphtha could dissolve or chemically attack Delrin (assuming that is what the gears are).
DuPont let Delrin soak in 10w30 motor oil for more than a year, and found no significant reduction in strength. They soaked it in gasoline for more than 2 years and found only a 10% drop in stiffness that went away when the parts dried out - it was apparently plasticized a little, reversibly, by the aromatics in the gasoline. Naphtha is similar to gasoline, but has only 5% aromatics (vs 25% for gasoline). So I wouldn't expect trouble from these two.
Maybe it's the citronella? I'm almost suspicious that it could be. Citronella is basically a mix of potential solvents. I should buy a little bottle of citronella oil and toss in some Tyco wheelsets to see what happens...
The other possibility is that the plastic Bachmann or Athearn used was porous and absorbed oil, making it swell. If a pair of plastic .25" gears absorbs enough oil to swell 0.8%, that would eat up all the typical clearance between the gears, making them grind together and wearing them down. Delrin isn't supposed to be porous or absorbent, but I've heard that it sometimes had porosity problems in earlier years.
What sort of wear did you see? Did the gears split and crack, or did the teeth break off, or did they just look chewed-up?
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Posted - December 04 2014 : 7:06:25 PM
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Super Lube is a synthetic clear grease, so I don't know how it compares. I've been using it on trains since I discovered it in Radio Shack in the early 90's, where it was sold as Archer Lube Gel. I was really amazed to discover in recent years that their oil and grease is superior to fractional HP motor oil in fans and blower motors. I thought it would be too light duty for that.
I hadn't heard the cautions against petroleum based lubes until I joined a forum about 8 years ago. I had used 3-In-1 in locos for years with no cracking, although just on bearings. AHM instructions recommended Vaseline to lube the gearing in their Mehano diesels, and again I used it with no ill effects. The only examples of brittle plastic I've come across have been the boiler castings of Tyco 2-8-0's, so many that I have to assume it's due to their smoke fluid, but they are styrene. I would think styrene is more vulnerable to petroleum than engineering plastics, as it's vulnerable to all sorts of solvents.
It makes you wonder how much of a threat petroleum oil is, not that I would ever go back to it with superior lubricants on the market.
quote:
Gad. Anything that says "Lionel". Anything...
Originally posted by Autobus Prime - December 04 2014 : 11:41:16 AM
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Tell me about it.  I'd love to make a tiny little "L" logo stamp and print them on some of my Rivarossi stuff and watch the collectors go nuts.
The Tyco Depot
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