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 Posted - November 09 2014 : 12:44:56 AM
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Just as the title says. Anyway, before I show you the photos, I've got some things to explain. I got it at a train show for only $30 in good condition with a nice freight car and keep in mind this is a diecast Mantua Pacific we're talking about. So anyway, I have this bizarre curiosity about knowing how old something is so that's why I'm wondering. Anyway, enough of my gibberish, let's get to the photos. 
As you may probably see from the photos, the piston thingy (don't know what it's called) and the white gear in the middle wheel are pretty much the only things that are plastic. On top of that, the locomotive has the sealed DC-71 motor they used in the 1950's plus the fact that the coupler slot (once I took out the coupler) has only one slot. Also, the screw for the coupler looks very similar to the one Mantua used for their loop couplers in the 1950's. But really, how would I know? For all I know, the screw could've been replaced over time much like the coupler itself.So anyway, do you guys know how old this probably is? The best I know is that it's from the 1950's.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
Edited by - kovacste000 on November 15 2014 12:03:34 PM
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 Posted - November 09 2014 : 10:31:33 AM
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My rough guess is post 1953, but pre mid sixties
Sean
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Posted - November 09 2014 : 4:22:36 PM
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The piston thingy is the crosshead with piston rod. Definitely 50's. Other differences are are the metal pilot, cab, and tender, fabric insulated wiring, etc. $30 was a good deal.
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Posted - November 09 2014 : 7:29:28 PM
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quote:Other differences are are the metal pilot, cab, and tender, fabric insulated wiring, etc.
Originally posted by NickelPlate759Â -Â November 09 2014Â :Â 4:22:36 PM
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This may or may not be a stupid question but what do you mean? What differences?
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
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Posted - November 09 2014 : 10:14:09 PM
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NP, I hope you don't mind if I butt in and answer his question:
Later Mantua Pacific's had plastic cabs, plastic pilot's, and plastic tenders.
The fabric covered wiring is a definite '50's early 60's thing. More modern equipment has vinyl coated wires you typically see now.
Something that will help determine a more exact year is the drive mechanism. You can go to HO Seeker to find out. If the worm and the top of the worm gear is covered with a metal plate or sits in a box, then that makes it an early production version.
Unspoken expectations are premeditated failures.
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Posted - November 09 2014 : 10:40:33 PM
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quote:
Something that will help determine a more exact year is the drive mechanism. You can go to HO Seeker to find out. If the worm and the top of the worm gear is covered with a metal plate or sits in a box, then that makes it an early production version.
Originally posted by NC shortlines - November 09 2014 : 10:14:09 PM
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You mean the metal thing on my loco that covers the worm? If so, yes, it has that.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
Edited by - kovacste000 on November 09 2014 10:41:00 PM
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Posted - November 09 2014 : 11:12:16 PM
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You probably would want to check it out for yourself either on Yardbird trains or HOSeeker.
My information is on the 2-8-2 Mikado from Mantua but, I'll guess that the Pacific followed the same production lineage.
From my notes your loco was produced from 1952 to 1953.
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Posted - November 09 2014 : 11:35:25 PM
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quote:You probably would want to check it out for yourself either on Yardbird trains or HOSeeker.
My information is on the 2-8-2 Mikado from Mantua but, I'll guess that the Pacific followed the same production lineage.
From my notes your loco was produced from 1952 to 1953.
Originally posted by NC shortlines - November 09 2014 : 11:12:16 PM
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Didn't the original model have the bell above the headlight? According to HOSeeker, in 1952-1953, it has the bell on the front of the locomotive. Mine has the bell on the boiler much like the Mantua Pacifics from the mid 50s or later. The part that confuses me about when the model was made is the plastic crosshead with piston rod. According to Ebay listings with Pacific models from 1956, they apparently had metal piston rods back then which would date mine to maybe 1957 or later. But at the same time, it has features that look like they're from the previous years. That's what confuses me.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
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Posted - November 10 2014 : 12:13:38 AM
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quote:The part that confuses me about when the model was made is the plastic crosshead with piston rod. According to Ebay listings with Pacific models from 1956, they apparently had metal piston rods back then which would date mine to maybe 1957 or later. But at the same time, it has features that look like they're from the previous years. That's what confuses me.
Originally posted by kovacste000Â -Â November 09 2014Â :Â 11:35:25 PM
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Some of us (who are forever swapping parts between Mantua locomotives) occasionally add to the confusion. You have no guarantee that every part is original.
Carpe Manana!
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Posted - November 10 2014 : 01:19:36 AM
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quote: NP, I hope you don't mind if I butt in and answer his question:
Originally posted by NC shortlines - November 09 2014 : 10:14:09 PM
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No problem, NC. You saved me the trouble.
Good point about the mixing & matching of parts, Shaggy. It's still a nice vintage piece that should pull like a beast.
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Posted - November 10 2014 : 09:13:38 AM
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quote: quote:The part that confuses me about when the model was made is the plastic crosshead with piston rod. According to Ebay listings with Pacific models from 1956, they apparently had metal piston rods back then which would date mine to maybe 1957 or later. But at the same time, it has features that look like they're from the previous years. That's what confuses me.
Originally posted by kovacste000Â -Â November 09 2014Â :Â 11:35:25 PM
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Some of us (who are forever swapping parts between Mantua locomotives) occasionally add to the confusion. You have no guarantee that every part is original.
Originally posted by scsshaggy - November 10 2014 : 12:13:38 AM
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Yeah, that's true. For example, that knuckle coupler was not originally there to begin with. For all I know, the piston rods on both sides might've broken over time and/or the original owner lost them when building the locomotive from the kit that it came from. On top of that, the seller told me a guy worked on that Pacific along with all the other locomotives in the bin. He said the guy tried fixing every broken part, maintained them, etc during the summer. What I'm starting to think now is that certain parts of the locomotive might've been swapped over time. Again, the coupler is a prime example of that. I mean, now that I really think about it, anything could've happened to this thing over the last almost 60 years of it's lifetime! (It's most likely around 57 or 58 years old probably) It's a great performing locomotive, though.But the thing is, the crossheads and pistons are the same on both sides. Then again, it just goes back to the "anything could've happened" thing.Then again, it looks like it was there to begin with.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
Edited by - kovacste000 on November 10 2014 09:19:57 AM
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Posted - November 11 2014 : 3:35:48 PM
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I believe the last year for the bell on front was 1955. So yours could be as early as 1956 and as late as 1959. Another 50's clue, besides the one's mentioned, is the 1 piece all metal tender (no floor) with ladder. There should also be a screw underneath to hold the separate coal load. Hard to tell exactly but it seems that 1960 was the year plastic was used more extensively and the basic worm gear was employed. Like others said the Kadee coupler (obviously) was added later as was the plastic parts of the valve gear. There are too many 50's clues to date it from '55 to '59.
rich p
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Posted - November 11 2014 : 6:47:41 PM
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quote:I believe the last year for the bell on front was 1955. So yours could be as early as 1956 and as late as 1959. Another 50's clue, besides the one's mentioned, is the 1 piece all metal tender (no floor) with ladder. There should also be a screw underneath to hold the separate coal load. Hard to tell exactly but it seems that 1960 was the year plastic was used more extensively and the basic worm gear was employed. Like others said the Kadee coupler (obviously) was added later as was the plastic parts of the valve gear. There are too many 50's clues to date it from '55 to '59.
Originally posted by richard p - November 11 2014 : 3:35:48 PM
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I finally got a picture of the base of the tender. Here it is.
As you can see, the base of the tender is, in fact, hollow and has a brass screw holding the coal load in. As for the coupler, I took it out and found a lone hole in the middle of the coupler slot itself. I then consulted to HOSeeker's Mantua diagrams page and looked at the Mikado and Pacific diagrams. I found the 1953 diagram for the Mantua Mikado tender had a very similar coupler screw as the one my Pacific has. The part number is 7164. In the 1958 diagram for the tender, I found the coupler was a different shape then mine, being more rounded than mine is. The part number for screw is 7477. If I'm not mistaken, this narrows the time frame down from 1956-1959 to 1956-1957. I could be wrong though.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
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Posted - November 12 2014 : 09:10:55 AM
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| Hard to tell in the photo but are the loco's wheels brass? I have an early one with brass drivers. Not referring to the tender wheels as they where brass till near the end.
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Posted - November 12 2014 : 09:31:50 AM
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quote:Hard to tell in the photo but are the loco's wheels brass? I have an early one with brass drivers. Not referring to the tender wheels as they where brass till near the end.
Originally posted by tkruger - November 12 2014 : 09:10:55 AM
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I'm not 100% sure. They do look like brass for sure but I've seen some of those Pacifics from the time mine was made (1950's) and found some of them don't have that yellow on the driving wheels. Also, they do look somewhat like normal metal so I'm guessing it's probably just some form of wear and tear on the wheels. I've seen it a lot on the older Mantuas, usually the more beat up and not so taken care of ones. But honestly, I'm not sure. Does this picture help?
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
Edited by - kovacste000 on November 12 2014 09:51:36 AM
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Posted - November 12 2014 : 10:31:50 AM
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To my eye, the wheels look like blackened zamac and the tires look like nickel plated brass.
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Posted - November 12 2014 : 10:46:23 AM
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I have 4 steamers from the 50's and they all have that yellowish coloring on the drivers. My 3 from the 60's do not have it at all. I don't run mine so I am wondering if the coloring is a combination of the metal used in the 50's and some sort of oxidation from lack of use. I have not tried to clean them so I don't know if the yellowing will disappear after cleaning. What is so cool about all this is that these steamers are almost 60 years old and run great after a little cleaning and lubrication.
rich p
Edited by - richard p on November 13 2014 09:54:21 AM
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Posted - November 12 2014 : 3:26:53 PM
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| I was asking about the brass wheels because my earliest one has wheels that are brass like brass track. The later ones (60s -70s) that I have has nickle plating or something similar to it. I know it is plating because I have a few where the plating has worn through. Then again as stated before you could have a 1950 loco with a 1990 tender and 1980 driver and a coupler from yesterday. One great thing is they made the parts interchangeable so you can keep them running.
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Posted - November 12 2014 : 6:15:03 PM
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quote:I have 4 steamers from the 50's and they all have that yellowish coloring on the drivers. My 3 from the 60's do not have it at all. I don't run mine so I am wondering if the coloring is a combination of the metal used in the 50's and some sort of oxidation from lack of use. I have not tried to clean them so I don't know if the yellowing will disappear after cleaning. What is so cool about all this is that these steamers are almost 60 years old and run great after a little leaning and lubrication.
Originally posted by richard p - November 12 2014 : 10:46:23 AM
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I would have to agree with that.Seriously, this thing runs amazingly well. It fact, it almost runs as good as some of my newer HO scale trains.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
Edited by - kovacste000 on November 12 2014 11:40:09 PM
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Posted - November 15 2014 : 10:57:14 AM
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Hey, guys! I got some more pictures that might help you guys with dating this locomotive. I unscrewed the coupler and took these pictures.
The screw looks similar to the one used in the mid 1950's while the coupler slot I have no clue.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
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Posted - November 15 2014 : 3:42:13 PM
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There's so little to that coupler slot, it makes me wonder if it's designed to hold the old hook and loop coupler.
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Posted - November 16 2014 : 5:30:29 PM
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quote:There's so little to that coupler slot, it makes me wonder if it's designed to hold the old hook and loop coupler.
Originally posted by scsshaggy - November 15 2014 : 3:42:13 PM
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I would think so because when I unscrewed the coupler to take those pictures, I found the Kadee coupler slot thing was glued together, like as if it wouldn't stay together if it wasn't glued, which means that there was most likely a hook and loop coupler on the loco. If that's the case and the crosshead gear is original, that would probably mean that the locomotive is from around 1957. Does that sound about right to you guys?
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
Edited by - kovacste000 on November 16 2014 10:23:54 PM
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Posted - December 04 2014 : 11:15:33 AM
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I have tenders with the hook and loop and horn hook couplers - the tender bodies (#2200) are the same. The hook and loop has sort of plastic sleeve in the coupler area to hold the coupler. The horn hook has a plate and a pocket. This all metal tender was used from about 1953 to 1959. The 1952 tender is different.
http://hoseeker.com/assemblyexplosionMantua/mantua282mikadoinst1953pg05.jpg
http://hoseeker.com/assemblyexplosionMantua/mantua212pacific462assembly1952pg5.jpg
(the link above shows "1952" but it is from the 1958 long haul tender instructions - 1952 would not have a horn hook anyway)
rich p
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Posted - January 26 2015 : 09:46:35 AM
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Update: When we opened up the motor more than a month ago to rewire it, I noticed how across the locomotive, it was painted in a different shade of black than what it is now, like there was a previous attempt at painting it. Eventually, I stumbled upon this forum's homepage where it had a collection of Tyco catalogs dating from the 1950's. I looked through them all and found that they were all painted black and had plastic crosshead gears like my loco, even back in the early 50's, apparently. This is starting to make me wonder if my Pacific may in fact be an early Tyco locomotive from the 50's.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
Edited by - kovacste000 on February 10 2015 09:47:51 AM
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Posted - February 16 2015 : 3:23:29 PM
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The issue is there were so many running changes at Mantua you never know what you have. My first Mantua, which I still have, we got second hand from relatives in on, 1965 or 1966.
Mikado. Version 2 (gearbox screwed to top of chassis), motor in cab.....the folks we got it from were all thumbs, so them working on it was not something we would expect.
Bell on top of boiler. Metal cab, pilot, tender.
And a headlight.
Not what you see in later years with a plastic ring holding a screw-in bulb and socket up from the bottom of the smokebox, but drilled straight through, intersecting the stack screw hole. Over the years the cab was pranged, twisted..tried to fix it, but it was never right. Tried Yardbird, after second or third try to get one to fit the boiler, he determined it was a metal Pacific cab (don't ask me..that's what he said), fit perfectly and didn't stand proud over the top of the firebox.
Real early Version 2's had a nylon insert for the tender coupler, so the metal Mantua couplers were electrically isolated from trailing stock. None of mine have the insert, and I have three Version 2's. Two of my Version 2's have bell on top front of smokebox. Dave
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Posted - February 16 2015 : 5:28:32 PM
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quote:The issue is there were so many running changes at Mantua you never know what you have. My first Mantua, which I still have, we got second hand from relatives in on, 1965 or 1966.
Mikado. Version 2 (gearbox screwed to top of chassis), motor in cab.....the folks we got it from were all thumbs, so them working on it was not something we would expect.
Bell on top of boiler. Metal cab, pilot, tender.
And a headlight.
Not what you see in later years with a plastic ring holding a screw-in bulb and socket up from the bottom of the smokebox, but drilled straight through, intersecting the stack screw hole. Over the years the cab was pranged, twisted..tried to fix it, but it was never right. Tried Yardbird, after second or third try to get one to fit the boiler, he determined it was a metal Pacific cab (don't ask me..that's what he said), fit perfectly and didn't stand proud over the top of the firebox.
Real early Version 2's had a nylon insert for the tender coupler, so the metal Mantua couplers were electrically isolated from trailing stock. None of mine have the insert, and I have three Version 2's. Two of my Version 2's have bell on top front of smokebox. Dave
Originally posted by ScaleCraft - February 16 2015 : 3:23:29 PM
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 That's quite strange, actually. And if you think about it, the Mikado cab is pretty much identical to the Pacific cab as far as I can tell. I guess that's not fully the case.That's the thing with Mantua locos, though (based on what I've gotten over time), you never know what you have. My Pacific could've originally been a Royal Blue loco from a 1960's Tyco set for all I know.But based on taking it apart for repairs since I've gotten it and looking at all the parts, most of it seems to be late 1950's except for the linkage and possibly the wheels (The couplers too. ). The linkage looks like it's been replaced at some point according to the plastic crosshead on the loco because that's the only 1960's or newer thing on it (besides the coupler, of course). Everything else including the motor, boiler, tender, etc look to be 1950's era so I'm guessing at some point, the linkage was replaced and/or the loco was in it's kit box for most of it's life and the linkage got lost or something, meaning the owner had to get new ones. Who knows, there's so many possibilities on what might've happened to this thing but based on everything I've gathered, I'm guessing it's from approximately 1957.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
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