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 Posted - August 23 2014 : 8:45:12 PM
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This Rogers 4-6-0 was collecting dust while I whittled away at some earlier model Moguls. When I wanted to run it around my new layout configuration, it ran real poorly. I messed with the tender trucks quite a bit; even took them apart and changed wheels. I would have liked to have seen what it did with new trucks (seems like the brass ones conduct well), but my limited experience hasn't settled on a consistently good product. I decided to try some rare earth magnets; I had 4 left that I was saving. Well . . . they definitely improved the performance and I did achieve lower throttle speed runs. This video is at 30%. The drive rods look real nice running at 25%, but the performance isn't consistent at that speed (maybe some dirty track? maybe still need better trucks?). Also, I've taken this thing apart probably a dozen times in the past day trying to get rid of noise that comes with putting the cab and boiler on. ? ? ? I've re-positioned the lead wire for the motor and the headlight thinking that might be it and guess I still don't have it right. Now I have to get away from it for awhile before I screw something up, hey? Anyway, I think it's always fun to see what pictures folks have posted, so here's my 2 cents . . .
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Posted - August 24 2014 : 3:08:05 PM
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Still messin' with this (generally noisy and labile performance at less than 30% throttle). I had it running at 28% throttle, thinking it was steady and the drivers were turning about 60 RPM and looked real nice . . . by the time I started the video, it had (randomly) slowed, but it was steady, so I kept the video going . . . so, wish I could say that I was in control of this, but I wasn't. It was still fun to watch the drive rods.
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Posted - August 25 2014 : 09:21:39 AM
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| Barry, I'm having the same problem with my 4-6-0. Runs like a charm without the boiler on but binds up when I replace the boiler. Runs really well with the boiler on when it is upside down in the work cradle, turn it right side up and put it ion the tracks, it binds up again. I am trying to check the drive rods and valve gear to see if something there is catching. I have already played with shimming the motor.
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Posted - August 25 2014 : 09:31:20 AM
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| Yeah, I'm thinking that the headlight lead wire or the motor lead are somehow getting rubbed by the worm gear, but as carefully as I've tried to tuck those things in, I haven't been able to solve it. Maybe if we keep in touch about this, we can solve it?
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Posted - August 25 2014 : 10:20:21 AM
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I would think you'd get more friction and noise with a motor lead rubbing the armature than the headlight wire rubbing the worm. Is there wire enough to route the motor lead over the top of the motor?
Carpe Manana!
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Posted - August 26 2014 : 2:33:58 PM
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Hey Don, Alex, I did route the wire over the top of the motor, though maybe it got bungled when I was installing the cab/boiler. However, now I'm thinking maybe it was a slight misalignment of the motor. I know there's only one way to put this motor in, but I'm wondering if when I tightened the screw on the pilot truck, it pulled the motor out of position just a smidgen (by torqueing on the frame just a hair?)? Last night, I did get it running nice and smoothly . . . and now I'm afraid to take it apart again to hook up the headlight wire . . . I guess practice will make perfect, hey? Here's a video, I shot this morning (35% throttle) . . .
[tubehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3WamhM53oc&feature=youtube_gdata] [/tube]
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Posted - August 26 2014 : 2:35:00 PM
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Posted - August 27 2014 : 12:36:38 AM
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I did decide to mess with a good thing and hooked up the headlight wire . . . which led to me taking apart and reassembling this locomotive about a half-dozen times. It's running pretty fair right now, but I do believe it could be better. I do like the way, with the motor cover/firebox out of the way, you can see the armature begin to turn. Though, right there, you can see that it is stuttering a little. Basically, Don had it with the lead wire placement in the boiler shell and cab critical to getting best performance.
I think the continued problem (e.g., armature stuttering to start and the stall that you can notice a short ways in to the video) are due to a less than optimal motor lead wire connection at the brush spring. I really like to avoid soldering those, but pinching them with the brush spring might be throwing some things out of wack? I'm thinking now (yeah, risking another disassembly!) maybe I should replace the motor lead wire with a smaller gauge so that the finer wire has less interference (potentially) with the brush spring movement and the part of the spring that captures the wire and hooks to the brown non-conductive material by the brush terminal. I also think that there might be better conductive trucks.
So . . . if you're interested, just the first few seconds of this video will show you what I'm talking about.
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Posted - August 27 2014 : 08:03:46 AM
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* What happened to the photos. Were they on loan from someplace. All I see is big empty squares. It is hard to comment on something that isn't there.
frank
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
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Posted - August 27 2014 : 08:32:59 AM
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quote:I think the continued problem (e.g., armature stuttering to start and the stall that you can notice a short ways in to the video) are due to a less than optimal motor lead wire connection at the brush spring. I really like to avoid soldering those, but pinching them with the brush spring might be throwing some things out of wack?
Originally posted by Barry - August 27 2014 : 12:36:38 AM
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There are people who tinker with the spring tension on brushes when tuning a motor, so there might be some effect on performance in having a big wire pinched in the spring, though I have no idea how much nor whether it's good or bad in the case of that motor.
On all of my Mantua locomotives, the lead wire is soldered to the post around which the brush spring coils are wrapped. This can be done without risk of damaging the motor if you take the spring off, then clean and tin the top of the post. Then, put the spring and brush back together, tin the wire, hold the tinned wire on the tinned post and quickly melt the two together with the soldering iron.
Doing it this way, there shouldn't be enough solder to get it where you don't want it and it shouldn't involve enough heat to risk annealing the spring.
Carpe Manana!
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Posted - August 27 2014 : 11:17:22 AM
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| Thanks Don. I think I need to get a better soldering iron. I have done the business of cleaning the post and the platform and getting everything nice and tidy, but the last time I tried to solder it (and maybe because of the wire gauge), I ended up soldering the spring and never could get it all cleaned off to function right. The wire gauge I'm talking about, I don't think is any heavier than the original . . . it was certainly more flexible . . . do you have any recommendations for soldering irons? Or any specific soldering advice? I've never used one of those high dollar soldering irons with the rheostat control and I'm kind of hoping that's not necessary.
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Posted - August 27 2014 : 9:08:28 PM
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quote:Thanks Don. I think I need to get a better soldering iron. I have done the business of cleaning the post and the platform and getting everything nice and tidy, but the last time I tried to solder it (and maybe because of the wire gauge), I ended up soldering the spring and never could get it all cleaned off to function right. The wire gauge I'm talking about, I don't think is any heavier than the original . . . it was certainly more flexible . . . do you have any recommendations for soldering irons? Or any specific soldering advice? I've never used one of those high dollar soldering irons with the rheostat control and I'm kind of hoping that's not necessary.
Originally posted by Barry - August 27 2014 : 11:17:22 AM
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I usually use one of the pistol shaped soldering irons. They can be made pretty hot. It's gentler to solder with a really hot iron than a smaller, cooler one, because you can heat the part you want to solder quickly, before the heat has a chance to spread to plastic parts and other solder joints. Anyway, the one I use is not very expensive and doesn't have a rheostat, but it has a trigger. I usually have to pull the trigger and hold it for a few seconds to get the tip hot, before applying it to the solder joint.
The reason I mentioned tinning the post, first, with the spring removed was to avoid soldering the spring. The trick I learned, then wished I had learned much earlier in life, is to not try to make the whole solder joint at once:
Part 1 - tinning the post: The post needs to be clean and have flux on top. Then, I'll typically get the iron good and hot and put a small drop of solder on it, then press it to the post to melt on a small coating of solder.
Part 2, - tinning the wire: The insulation should be skinned off of the last 3/16" or so and the wire clean and coated with flux. Then the same really hot iron with a small drop of solder on it is touched to the wire and wicked into and onto the end.
Part 3 - assembling the joint: Put the spring on the post or the wire (where it can later be slid down onto the post). Then, with one hand, hold the end of the wire to the post and touch the hot iron to the top of the wire until the solder on the wire and the solder on the post melt together. This should not take long if the iron is hot enough. When the solder solidifies (this should also not take long), situate the spring and the brush.
I get the impression, from your mention of wire gauge that you might have been doing this all in one step. That's what I used to do when my life was harder.
Carpe Manana!
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Posted - August 29 2014 : 10:14:28 AM
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| I think my soldering iron wasn't hot enough. I mean, I think it was hot enough to tin the tiny wire without a problem, but maybe not hot enough to get the terminal post hot enough to accept the solder. Thanks for the tips about the soldering iron. I have likely not been consistent enough in my technique as you have laid it out here. How about any particular brand of flux? Does it make a difference if the flux is "fresh"?
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Posted - August 29 2014 : 11:17:33 AM
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quote:How about any particular brand of flux? Does it make a difference if the flux is "fresh"?
Originally posted by Barry - August 29 2014 : 10:14:28 AM
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I don't know much about the various kinds of flux, since I've only ever used one kind. It's a paste that's in a can labeled "Nokorode" and the can has the company's address as it was before ZIP codes. I can't remember a time before that can of flux, so I don't think the stuff gets stale. I don't know if you could say the same about liquid flux.
Carpe Manana!
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Posted - August 29 2014 : 12:02:41 PM
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Well I got my problem sorted out with the stuttering and hesitation. Only took 2 hours and 3 dismantles last night.
Turns out one set of the crosshead guides was too tight where they entered the steam cylinders. Therefore, every revolution of the driving wheels when the crosshead neared the cylinder the motor would slow down and then speed up again as the crosshead retreated. The binding was also related to the angle of the guides, thus it wouldn't do it when the boiler wasn't on as the cylinders were free to move with the pressure applied by the crosshead.
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Posted - August 29 2014 : 12:33:31 PM
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quote:Well I got my problem sorted out with the stuttering and hesitation. Only took 2 hours and 3 dismantles last night.
Turns out one set of the crosshead guides was too tight where they entered the steam cylinders. Therefore, every revolution of the driving wheels when the crosshead neared the cylinder the motor would slow down and then speed up again as the crosshead retreated. The binding was also related to the angle of the guides, thus it wouldn't do it when the boiler wasn't on as the cylinders were free to move with the pressure applied by the crosshead.
Originally posted by Retired Alex - August 29 2014 : 12:02:41 PM
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Glad you finally found out what the problem was because when you get those things running, they run well. I would know, I have one of them! 
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
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Posted - August 29 2014 : 8:20:06 PM
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| That's good Alex. It is amazing how many times you can take these things apart and put them back together before you get it figured out.
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Posted - August 29 2014 : 9:39:22 PM
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Alex, your experience shows how just about anything can cause a bind in a steam loco's running gear. I recently bought a Bachmann Plus version of the old Reading Consolidation, and though Bachmann had gotten smarter at this point and square keyed all of the plastic driver axles, the axles had still split which allowed the drivers to come out of gauge. I took it all apart, gauged each driver set 360 degrees around, and locked the axles in place with CA.
After reassembly there was a hitch, a slight lope at low speed. I couldn't figure out how it was possible, since the squared axles wouldn't let them come out of quarter. It took some time to track down, but it turned out that one of the eccentrics was bent outward at an angle, so it was torquing the valve gear linkage and pulling the valve gear hanger back and forth with every turn. That was new one for me.
Barry, Shaggy's giving good advice. Also be sure to keep a wet sponge nearby and clean the tip of the iron with it before you solder each joint, and remove excess solder. The tip must be kept bright and shiny, because solder won't flow if the tip has gotten dull and flaky.
It's easy to free that spring from the solder blob if you hold it with some long nose pliers (a hemostat is even better, since they lock), get it nice and hot with the iron, and whack the pliers against the edge of your bench, vise, etc. so the solder goes flying. A good de-soldering tool is a worthwhile investment so you can do it with components in place.
The headlight wire isn't thick enough to make an appreciable difference in the brush tension, but you can adjust the spring to compensate if you like. In the videos it looks like your loco is keeping at a very even low speed.
The Tyco Depot
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