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 Posted - July 09 2014 : 11:05:54 PM
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I teach architectural manual and CAD drafting in a magnet secondary program. I have been in service as a public school teacher for over 18 years. For a long time, I self-denied what others were telling me- that kids these days are "wired differently" and are not hands-on as was the case when I started teaching. Now, regrettably, I am starting to believe this.
- I tell a student to put his/her cell phone away in the classroom- it's like I asked them to cut a vein!
- I teach them the mechanical process of manual drafting, only to see them become impatient with having to perform the careful and methodical movements required , over a period of time, to create a clean well-drafted drawing.
- I teach them AutoCAD on some of the fastest computers (2Tbyte/16Gb ram, plus superfast video cards, etc.) we have ever used in a classroom, but they get bored- even where they have the opportunity to complete a complex drawing in less time than an army of drafters 20 years ago.
- They have no interest in constructing balsa wood models- too much measuring and cutting from their perspective.
- during lunch, they can barely put down their cell phones and devices to take a bite of food; ingesting things electronically is more important than eating, I guess.
At this point- short of an EMP event that renders their electronics useless (and part of me really wants to see what they would do if cut off suddenly from their "toys" and had to actually read a book for entertainment), nothing will bring a large wave of new modelers into the hobby. Some few may trickle in, but the nature of our present and future economy may make their participation a tentative thing.
Perhaps if we had a national fast rail network of shiny aero-shaped trains that was equivalently competitive with our crappy air travel system, it might inspire more kids, but- given the unpopularity of tax-funded passenger rail in the US and the "travel time" it might require between cities, that is not a forseeable thing.
I told my beautiful and talented daughter that she should keep her own selection of my models when I pass on as momentos of me on a shelf, but not to expect that- when she has a family- her kids would be other than only mildly curious about what grandpa worked on and enjoyed.
Ron
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Posted - July 10 2014 : 01:00:39 AM
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That's exactly what I'm seeing. Even I am suffering this a little bit. It's not too bad though. The point is, most kids are way worse than I am when it comes to using electronics. Some of them use electronics so much that they rarely ever get off of them and when they do, it's only to do homework or some equivalence. I think I mentioned this in another thread in the loose ends area. If you want to read how I feel about the dumbing down of kids these days, take a look at it. The thread I put my feelings about this stuff is in the topic "This could save model railroading!" in loose ends.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
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Posted - July 10 2014 : 01:42:14 AM
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My wife is a school teacher and social worker for special needs kids. Its amazing what I have learned from her as far as kids go. One problem is would be todays kids aren't taught anything from their parents at a young age and up. The schools believe they can teach 21st century methods today, which is not effective. The world has changed and expectations from the kids has changed too. Many families are now controlled by the KIDS today so why should we be surprised they act the way they do...
Technology will keep changing and faster than ever and the needs and expectations of kids will change too. When adults start acting like parents and limit the use of electronics their kids use, they might notice a difference. The world today is NOT "hands on". Services are the theme today... We cant teach them to work at the steel mills now....
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Posted - July 10 2014 : 11:44:33 AM
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Oh, and I have a couple more things to add to this discussion today. When my parents were helping me on my homework way way back, (A couple of years ago so not so way back ) they couldn't believe I didn't know how to properly add fractions and stuff like that when I should've learned it that year. The reason for that was the teachers only spent 1 hour on one day on that specific lesson and some kids never got it completely because the teachers never explained it too well. Plus, instead of doing hands on things in class on a certain lesson, we watch a movie related to it. Sometimes having close to nothing to do with it. Nothing seems hands on anymore. It's all done on computers. The problem with that is that it's dumbing down people in general. Almost to the point where kids don't even have a single clue how to work with these electronics and/or program them. This goes not just for computers, machinery, etc. This goes for model trains too. Kids my age (High School age) don't do many physical things period. Heck, I don't even see them off of their phones very often and even when they are, they look bored as heck even on something physical that takes only a couple of minutes or so. Again, I suffer this a little bit too but I make sure it doesn't ruin me for doing physical things in general. Here's some examples of what I do (This is not all of them), I try to take a walk almost everyday, I work on my model train layout sections, etc. I don't even text very often but when I do, it's not much more than 15-30 minutes. Sometimes they're less than that. Anyway, back to the point I'm getting across. Kids are not as intelligent overall as they were 20, 30, 40 years ago. It's getting harder and harder to find kids that are actually very intelligent or even notice things like I do. Plus, I think the sole reason why model railroading prospered in the 1950's thru 1970's was because kids didn't really have any electronics. All most kids had was a TV or radio (or both) somewhere in the house and even then there weren't very many channels on TV back then. So back then, kids had less things that they could do back then. That's why hobbies in general came to be. People didn't have as many things to occupy their time back then so they needed more things that they could do. Model railroading was one of those things. Now, kids have a bunch more stuff to do than their parents or grandparents could ever dream of having when they were kids. Therefore, kids occupy all their time on computers, cell phones, etc. instead of doing hobbies so in a way, physical hobbies could be considered obsolete which is actually a sad thing. But, to be honest, that observation alone doesn't make me want to quit the hobby in general, heck no! It just makes me want to keep it alive even more than I did before because of the current state of society and the fact that they don't want model railroading anymore. Trust me, I've seen some of my favorite hobby shops turn into a huge financial mess and just collapse. I fear this will only get worse until we try getting younger kids interested into the hobby of model railroading for an extended period of time.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
Edited by - kovacste000 on July 10 2014 12:05:20 PM
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Posted - July 10 2014 : 12:20:03 PM
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Stephen,
I see your point of view and understand where you are coming from. I think that you are a individual who will be successful in life.
Being aware of a problem is half of the solution. The computer is a tool it can be used in many ways. We are flooded with information, and starving for knowledge. The virtual world will never produce food or shelter. We tend to forget that fact. The technology can make our world better or it can provide a deep dark hole to hide in. The choice is ours.
I assume you are in a public school. The public schools are not very good at providing a good eduction. The schools seem to think that their main function in society it to provide jobs for the education staff. Do not get me wrong, I have immediate family who are teachers, they are very frustrated with the current environment. There are many dedicated people in education, but you may have to work to fill in the gaps in the current school environment. It will not be easy, but we need young people with your drive and insight.
Regards, John
We are taught you must blame your father, your sisters, your brothers, the school, the teachers - but never blame yourself. It's never your fault. But it's always your fault, because if you wanted to change you're the one who has got to change. <> Katharine Hepburn
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Posted - July 10 2014 : 1:00:22 PM
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Everything evolves. Trains aren't the eye-popping, shiny streamliners or monstrous steam locomotives they used to be. It's no real wonder kids aren't excited about them. That being said, I don't think the art of modelling is dying, the tools being used are just changing.
I have a three year diploma in Video Game Development. Every single object (car, train, building, person, etc.) you see in a video game or computer animated movie has been modeled by someone. Granted they're using Max/Maya instead of styrene and glue, and Photoshop instead of paint, but the principles are the same. It's not just big companies making things either, there are loads of video games that allow users to create their own models and add them to the game. It's sort of like making your own HO engine and bringing it to the local club where all your friends have brought their scratch-built models as well...different, but the same.
Modelling is still alive and well, just in cyber space. And who knows what will happen once 3D printing technology gets bigger. 
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Posted - July 10 2014 : 3:50:16 PM
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quote:Everything evolves. Trains aren't the eye-popping, shiny streamliners or monstrous steam locomotives they used to be. It's no real wonder kids aren't excited about them. That being said, I don't think the art of modelling is dying, the tools being used are just changing.
I have a three year diploma in Video Game Development. Every single object (car, train, building, person, etc.) you see in a video game or computer animated movie has been modeled by someone. Granted they're using Max/Maya instead of styrene and glue, and Photoshop instead of paint, but the principles are the same. It's not just big companies making things either, there are loads of video games that allow users to create their own models and add them to the game. It's sort of like making your own HO engine and bringing it to the local club where all your friends have brought their scratch-built models as well...different, but the same.
Modelling is still alive and well, just in cyber space. And who knows what will happen once 3D printing technology gets bigger.
Originally posted by DaCheez - July 10 2014 : 1:00:22 PM
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I did hear one guy on some other train forum state this: "model railroading is not dying, it's evolving." and I guess this is what he meant.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
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Posted - July 10 2014 : 4:03:31 PM
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As Buford T Justice said, what is the world coming to?! I'd love to have a class like that in my school day! I remember carpentry and auto class sliding down and no one ever supplied us anything we needed! Hardly any wood for projects and lacked tools in automotive. Kids just sat around and broke stuff! Playing with phones when a head was turned. I would love to teach US History. Not in this generation or the next. Albert Einstein wasn't lying about a generation being full of idiots! My god, people my age ain't got crap on me! Hell, I'm probably the youngest smart plumbers helper left! Kids want everything handed to them, and there a double s wiped any chance! No one wants to do construction or maintenance any more. They couldn't fix squat if there life depended on it. Hardly see guys with tools in their garage. Just some asinine car and silly junk. Thinking the next generation will be worse and WW3 will be fought with sticks and stones! Lord, hope I'm gone by then! They will all be fat and stupid. I knew this chubby kid came over July 4 weekend and played his hand held game thing ma jing the whole time! Sure is special.
" Heck with counting 'em rivets, TRAINS ARE FOR FUN! Not called the Mad Scientist for nothing either!"
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Posted - July 10 2014 : 4:05:38 PM
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Yes, education has gone to hell in a hand basket! Ok, off my soap box!
" Heck with counting 'em rivets, TRAINS ARE FOR FUN! Not called the Mad Scientist for nothing either!"
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Posted - July 10 2014 : 4:58:37 PM
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Justin,
You know stupid is a real problem. Now ignorance is a problem, but not so much. You cannot fix stupid, but with a little patience ignorance can be cured. If the current generation is not able to accomplish tasks, maybe most are just ignorant. If the former generations had transferred the needed skills, knowledge, and responsibility then maybe this generation would all be able to stand on their own 2 feet. The question is who is at fault here? This is not to accuse the individual, but all generations as a whole.
It appears you are successful, you can be proud of that.
Regards, John ************************
There are hunters and there are victims. By your discipline, cunning, obedience, and alertness,
you will decide if you are a hunter or a victims <> Gen. James Mattis
Edited by - JRG1951 on July 10 2014 5:05:55 PM
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Posted - July 10 2014 : 5:33:48 PM
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We could use common sense! Notice people are real jerks out there.
" Heck with counting 'em rivets, TRAINS ARE FOR FUN! Not called the Mad Scientist for nothing either!"
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Posted - July 10 2014 : 6:43:27 PM
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I have to say, it's no mystery that model railroading is not attracting many new, especially young hobbyists, if a thread titled "Saving the Hobby" consists of mostly hostile criticisms of prospective hobbyists.
Model railroading has become a less and less accessible hobby. During the "golden age" of the hobby, entry level toy trains were sturdy, like Lionel and Tyco products. Now entry level model trains are breakable and cheaply made, surely causing a lot of frustration.
I have also been at many a train show where layout operators yell at young kids who get too close to their layouts. Even though I understand that people are very protective of their model railroad work, I can't see those kids going to another train show, or their parents taking them to another one.
No wonder interactive, electronic games and toys are more popular than model trains.
ChessieRR
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Posted - July 10 2014 : 10:16:56 PM
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OP: Some perspective on where I am coming from...
In the 1960s-early 70s, I went to school, took wood shop, drafting, electronics shop (the old Radio Shack-buy the parts- solder them on a breadboard-type era), learned a bit of COBAL and FORTRAN in high school and entered adult life as a tool-user. I punched an IBM 360 mainframe in the Navy and maintained my affection for manual tool-using as I matured into the computer age.
The kids I see now are the pre-cursors to the cartoonish overweight anti-gravity chair-bound characters we saw in the WAL-E movie, orbiting the earth in a ship with everything automated.
They now can channel surf, where I had only 3-4 channels of TV; they get information at a touch of a few keys, where I had to spend time researching in the university library in actual bound volumes of professional journals.
On the adult level, go around your neighborhood- see how few guys have tools in their garages anymore- can they change out a battery? can they fix the light switch in the hood over the kitchen range? can they even change out the spark plug in their lawnmower- assuming they still mow the lawn themselves?
DaCheez is correct that there is a great deal of work done in software rendering for games and such, but there is no tactile satisfaction gained, in my opinion, and the lack of "immediacy" which characterizes the model railroading hobby is a significant turn-off to potential young new hobbyists.
Ron
Edited by - siouxlake on July 10 2014 10:19:58 PM
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Posted - July 10 2014 : 10:25:02 PM
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quote:I have to say, it's no mystery that model railroading is not attracting many new, especially young hobbyists,
Originally posted by ChessieRRÂ -Â July 10 2014Â :Â 6:43:27 PM
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I beg to differ, my own model club has seen Dads and Sons join or visit our Open House shows together, and we have signed up about 3 pairs like that in the last year alone. While that's not "huge", it's more than our club has had in the past of young, pre-interested children with parents wanting to join a club enjoying model trains. And working at the Model Train shop I do, I've seen parents come in with children to look at trains, and buy some expensive sets,too. One mother and grandmother have come several times, their son is about 12, and he's more knowledgeable about O gauge Lionel than I am, and has more than a few expensive engines that I can't even afford ( nice to have parents that will spend that kinda money on you! ).
Jerry
quote:
Model railroading has become a less and less accessible hobby. During the "golden age" of the hobby, entry level toy trains were sturdy, like Lionel and Tyco products. Now entry level model trains are breakable and cheaply made, surely causing a lot of frustration.ChessieRR
Originally posted by ChessieRRÂ -Â July 10 2014Â :Â 6:43:27 PM
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Uh, wasn't there a thread on TF last year about how EXPENSIVE the hobby has become? I don't see these new engines break as much as the old ones , nor as poor a quality as the old Bachmann or Tyco PT-powered units. Considering that the train hobby declined for years after slot cars, space rockets, and video games came out, there is a HUGE selection that has been exploding in recent years. While the costs have gone up, due to sound and remote control technology, there's more train stuff out there than ever before, in my opinion. Yes, something old dies ( Model Power closes up ), and new or pick-up companies take over old ones or bring out fresh products. I think since the advent of sound and multiple engine operations, the hobby has made a good comeback. Before, what could a train do in the 70's? Go around in circles. Now you have actual sounds, even engineers talking, synchronized sounds with movements, it's a whole different world than when I grew up with model trains. And it's attracting new clientele as well as older people looking to get back into it after many years. I see lots of people in their 30's and 40's bring in a parents Lionel or HO train set for repair, or to buy more stuff to use, or upgrade their current track/transformer collection. It's not a tidal wave of customers, but the market is seeing more people , both old and new, come to buy model trains.
Jerry
quote:I have also been at many a train show where layout operators yell at young kids who get too close to their layouts. Even though I understand that people are very protective of their model railroad work, I can't see those kids going to another train show,
ChessieRR
Originally posted by ChessieRRÂ -Â July 10 2014Â :Â 6:43:27 PM
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Can't say I've seen THAT at any of my local mid-Atlantic shows, guys watch their modules to make sure the kids don't make off with diecast vehicles or knock over their trains, but I yet to see anyone actually yell at a child for even doing that when it happens. THey don't bring out their $1,000 engines and put them in close quarters with curious touchy-feelie kids, they bring out their average stuff to shows. I actually asked that of one of my train club guys when he complained about the kids, I said do you actually bring out your best stuff, and he said No, he didn't Then, if you expect kids to be kids, bring out the It's OK to touch and feel stuff, and let them get a feel for them. Our club actually encourages kids and parents to operate our Digitrax trains. Occasionally a pricey engine will be run, but the club member is usually right there beside it, keeping an eye on it while operating the throttle. If the guys at your shows are so intent on modeling as compared to being an ambassador to the hobby of model trains, all I can say is they're doing a poor job.Are these by any chance O gaugers? I've noticed that since they deal with higher-end trains, they tend to be more protective of their equipment than us HO modelers. :) I mean, the purpose of a show is to display to the public what the hobby is about, and I hope it's not about Look but don't Touch. Yeesh. I can understand about a car show, guys spend mucho money on fixing up their cars, and don't want people all over them. But a hobby, you shouldn't be bringing out just the Mona Lisa's, you should bring out the finger paints and projects My club does, one guy has done quite a bit of Digitraxing Tyco engines. I'm rather proud of him. :)
Jerry
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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Posted - July 11 2014 : 01:39:26 AM
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quote:| DaCheez is correct that there is a great deal of work done in software rendering for games and such, but there is no tactile satisfaction gained, in my opinion, and the lack of "immediacy" which characterizes the model railroading hobby is a significant turn-off to potential young new hobbyists. |
That depends on the circumstances. If the person is using a level editor and simply throwing in pre-made assests then I suppose you are correct. In the case of modelling and texturing each individual asset and then assembling it into a full scene, it's about the same as building a model layout. I spent months putting together a single downtown intersection, and even then it was sloppy. 
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Posted - July 11 2014 : 09:47:36 AM
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quote: quote:I have to say, it's no mystery that model railroading is not attracting many new, especially young hobbyists,
Originally posted by ChessieRRÂ -Â July 10 2014Â :Â 6:43:27 PM
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I beg to differ, my own model club has seen Dads and Sons join or visit our Open House shows together, and we have signed up about 3 pairs like that in the last year alone. While that's not "huge", it's more than our club has had in the past of young, pre-interested children with parents wanting to join a club enjoying model trains. And working at the Model Train shop I do, I've seen parents come in with children to look at trains, and buy some expensive sets,too. One mother and grandmother have come several times, their son is about 12, and he's more knowledgeable about O gauge Lionel than I am, and has more than a few expensive engines that I can't even afford ( nice to have parents that will spend that kinda money on you! ).
Jerry
quote:
Model railroading has become a less and less accessible hobby. During the "golden age" of the hobby, entry level toy trains were sturdy, like Lionel and Tyco products. Now entry level model trains are breakable and cheaply made, surely causing a lot of frustration.ChessieRR
Originally posted by ChessieRRÂ -Â July 10 2014Â :Â 6:43:27 PM
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Uh, wasn't there a thread on TF last year about how EXPENSIVE the hobby has become? I don't see these new engines break as much as the old ones , nor as poor a quality as the old Bachmann or Tyco PT-powered units. Considering that the train hobby declined for years after slot cars, space rockets, and video games came out, there is a HUGE selection that has been exploding in recent years. While the costs have gone up, due to sound and remote control technology, there's more train stuff out there than ever before, in my opinion. Yes, something old dies ( Model Power closes up ), and new or pick-up companies take over old ones or bring out fresh products. I think since the advent of sound and multiple engine operations, the hobby has made a good comeback. Before, what could a train do in the 70's? Go around in circles. Now you have actual sounds, even engineers talking, synchronized sounds with movements, it's a whole different world than when I grew up with model trains. And it's attracting new clientele as well as older people looking to get back into it after many years. I see lots of people in their 30's and 40's bring in a parents Lionel or HO train set for repair, or to buy more stuff to use, or upgrade their current track/transformer collection. It's not a tidal wave of customers, but the market is seeing more people , both old and new, come to buy model trains.
Jerry
quote:I have also been at many a train show where layout operators yell at young kids who get too close to their layouts. Even though I understand that people are very protective of their model railroad work, I can't see those kids going to another train show,
ChessieRR
Originally posted by ChessieRRÂ -Â July 10 2014Â :Â 6:43:27 PM
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Can't say I've seen THAT at any of my local mid-Atlantic shows, guys watch their modules to make sure the kids don't make off with diecast vehicles or knock over their trains, but I yet to see anyone actually yell at a child for even doing that when it happens. THey don't bring out their $1,000 engines and put them in close quarters with curious touchy-feelie kids, they bring out their average stuff to shows. I actually asked that of one of my train club guys when he complained about the kids, I said do you actually bring out your best stuff, and he said No, he didn't Then, if you expect kids to be kids, bring out the It's OK to touch and feel stuff, and let them get a feel for them. Our club actually encourages kids and parents to operate our Digitrax trains. Occasionally a pricey engine will be run, but the club member is usually right there beside it, keeping an eye on it while operating the throttle. If the guys at your shows are so intent on modeling as compared to being an ambassador to the hobby of model trains, all I can say is they're doing a poor job.Are these by any chance O gaugers? I've noticed that since they deal with higher-end trains, they tend to be more protective of their equipment than us HO modelers. :) I mean, the purpose of a show is to display to the public what the hobby is about, and I hope it's not about Look but don't Touch. Yeesh. I can understand about a car show, guys spend mucho money on fixing up their cars, and don't want people all over them. But a hobby, you shouldn't be bringing out just the Mona Lisa's, you should bring out the finger paints and projects My club does, one guy has done quite a bit of Digitraxing Tyco engines. I'm rather proud of him. :)
Jerry
Originally posted by AMC_Gremlin_GTÂ -Â July 10 2014Â :Â 10:25:02 PM
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I have no doubt that model railroading is alive and well, and better than ever in most respects.
The point I was trying to make was that this thread was mostly complaints and criticisms of society in general, but the only way to "Save the Hobby" would be to identify problems within the hobby, rather than problems with people in general.
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Posted - July 11 2014 : 6:30:10 PM
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quote:
I have no doubt that model railroading is alive and well, and better than ever in most respects.
The point I was trying to make was that this thread was mostly complaints and criticisms of society in general, but the only way to "Save the Hobby" would be to identify problems within the hobby, rather than problems with people in general.
Originally posted by ChessieRRÂ -Â July 11 2014Â :Â 09:47:36 AM
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Oh, OK. Well, part of the problem is that society HAS changed, there is more "instantaneous gratification" available than ever before, and that changes people. Science has documented that children exposed to too much computer time do NOT develop fully critical social skills, as they are short-cutted by the immediacy of the technological devices they are surrounded by, and unless parents put a limit on it, some kids just do not develop good social skills as a result. In order to swim, you gotta dive into the water! Being forced out of a comfort zone, whether technological or not, is the only way to grow. You learn nothing new if you try nothing new. Anyway, I think there's enough interest still in old trains that there will be customers for awhile yet. It will never be like it was in the 40's and 50's, when airplanes weren't as common, and Interstates and V-8 engines did not exist yet. The glory days may be over, but there is still room for nostalgia.
Jerry
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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Posted - July 11 2014 : 6:54:26 PM
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Some thoughts from my experience:
I've been a teacher for 11 years, and I agree with Redneck Justin's comment 100% It's more frustrating each year--don't know how long I'll stay with it. But that's a whole other discussion. In that time, I have encountered ZERO kids who even knew model railroading was a hobby, beyond the punch line to a joke about how I seem like an "old man" and I've probably got a "train set". I've never known a kid who actually had anything beyond wooden Thomas trains.
Even if they were interested, they would only be able to purchase items online. Hobby Lobby (30 miles away) only has a couple Bachmann cheapo sets. No hands-on, instant gratification because there are no hobby shops around here anymore. That really kills a lot of it. Plus, all the entry-level stuff is junk, so even if they buy it they won't be happy.
Trains are barely visible anymore. Most kids around here never see them. BNSF, UP, and KCS are around, but you have to go looking for them. It's not like they pass through every little town anymore.
Trains aren't that "cool" anymore. Sorry to say that, but it's true. I've never encountered any kid who would look up from their phone to watch a train like we all would.
The only train show around here that actually has operating layouts is when the Great Train Expo comes though KC. That's an hour away...most people can't afford to just do something like that on a whim, just to see what it is. But I will say it's not that fun for kids anyway. It's been different each time I've gone, but even I found it kind of boring. Plus, I didn't see "yelling" at kids, but the "hands-on exhibit" was run by a guy who was very nervous and very intent on making the kids handle the little Lionel set "properly" and wouldn't let them really play because he was afraid they would wreck it.
So I think the hobby as we know and love it is nearly dead. When I say that, I'm not trying to be judgmental. It's just an observation. It's bound to happen. Nobody pitches horseshoes, smokes a pipe, or collects stamps anymore either. Oh wait...that describes my weekend.
The other way to look at it is what DaCheez was trying to say. Virtual models. Think about it like another type of material: tin trains, wood trains, plastic trains....maybe now 3D virtual trains. Doesn't appeal to me at all, but to each his own.
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Posted - July 11 2014 : 6:58:49 PM
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It's fascinating to speculate about it. There ARE so many more things competing for a kid's time - for that matter, for everyone's time - and so the hobby is settling into a niche of sorts. Maybe not huge growth but a steady presence. More than anything it is changing to match the times - as all things must do. Some brick/mortar shops are going under while internet suppliers are filling the vacancy.
I do know that wherever I have displayed my layout, there are kids that go absolutely nuts over it. Go to a train show and kids are everywhere.
It seems this hobby has been dead/dying for years now..... 
http://tycodepot.com/
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Posted - August 14 2014 : 5:00:57 PM
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Manufactures are still producing new and improved models and locomotives. If times were tough they wouldn't be doing so. Some would argue that it's older modelers who are buying the new stuff and that is more than likely true but there are plenty of younger model railroaders on YouTube. As long as affordable trains are made, I am not to worried about the fate of the hobby.
If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right.
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Posted - August 14 2014 : 5:28:22 PM
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quote:I have to say, it's no mystery that model railroading is not attracting many new, especially young hobbyists, if a thread titled "Saving the Hobby" consists of mostly hostile criticisms of prospective hobbyists.
Model railroading has become a less and less accessible hobby. During the "golden age" of the hobby, entry level toy trains were sturdy, like Lionel and Tyco products. Now entry level model trains are breakable and cheaply made, surely causing a lot of frustration.
I have also been at many a train show where layout operators yell at young kids who get too close to their layouts. Even though I understand that people are very protective of their model railroad work, I can't see those kids going to another train show, or their parents taking them to another one.
No wonder interactive, electronic games and toys are more popular than model trains.
ChessieRR
Originally posted by ChessieRRÂ -Â July 10 2014Â :Â 6:43:27 PM
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You've said it. Seriously though, I've had a very similar experience where I was in a hobby shop not so far away from my home and I saw a cool Mantua train pack there. You know, those sets that they offered in the '80s and the price was actually quite decent. Anyways, when my parents and I went to the table to buy it, the workers up front were complete jerks! They didn't even try to be nice, they just got all mad at me for no reason whatsoever. After we finally got the train, my parents just ranted on and on about the service and how they never wanted to take me back, even though they have almost everything I'd need for my model train stuff. At least there's another hobby shop that's a few miles closer to my home that also offers almost everything I need.The point I'm trying to get across here is that this experience is another reason why the hobby is dying. The people working at the hobby shops are on average complete jerks! Of course, not all them are like that but still, it's bad experiences like those that drive people away from the hobby. I really wish I could've told them that but it would've made me look like a complete fool.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
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Posted - August 14 2014 : 5:42:02 PM
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quote: quote:I have to say, it's no mystery that model railroading is not attracting many new, especially young hobbyists, if a thread titled "Saving the Hobby" consists of mostly hostile criticisms of prospective hobbyists.
Model railroading has become a less and less accessible hobby. During the "golden age" of the hobby, entry level toy trains were sturdy, like Lionel and Tyco products. Now entry level model trains are breakable and cheaply made, surely causing a lot of frustration.
I have also been at many a train show where layout operators yell at young kids who get too close to their layouts. Even though I understand that people are very protective of their model railroad work, I can't see those kids going to another train show, or their parents taking them to another one.
No wonder interactive, electronic games and toys are more popular than model trains.
ChessieRR
Originally posted by ChessieRRÂ -Â July 10 2014Â :Â 6:43:27 PM
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You've said it. Seriously though, I've had a very similar experience where I was in a hobby shop not so far away from my home and I saw a cool Mantua train pack there. You know, those sets that they offered in the '80s and the price was actually quite decent. Anyways, when my parents and I went to the table to buy it, the workers up front were complete jerks! They didn't even try to be nice, they just got all mad at me for no reason whatsoever. After we finally got the train, my parents just ranted on and on about the service and how they never wanted to take me back, even though they have almost everything I'd need for my model train stuff. At least there's another hobby shop that's a few miles closer to my home that also offers almost everything I need.The point I'm trying to get across here is that this experience is another reason why the hobby is dying. The people working at the hobby shops are on average complete jerks!Of course, not all them are like that but still, it's bad experiences like those that drive people away from the hobby. I really wish I could've told them that but it would've made me look like a complete fool.
Originally posted by kovacste000Â -Â August 14 2014Â :Â 5:28:22 PM
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Stephen, perhaps that's something the owner of the hobby shop needs to know. I'm sure he or she would not appreciate the sales staff alienating customers. If you're not comfortable talking to him, maybe a letter? It may not make a difference, but it's sure not going to get better if the people that own the shops don't hear it.
http://tycodepot.com/
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Posted - August 14 2014 : 5:43:54 PM
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quote:
The other way to look at it is what DaCheez was trying to say. Virtual models. Think about it like another type of material: tin trains, wood trains, plastic trains....maybe now 3D virtual trains. Doesn't appeal to me at all, but to each his own.
Originally posted by burlington77Â -Â July 11 2014Â :Â 6:54:26 PM
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Virtual models.... You mean like those Train Simulator games out there because in a lot of ways it's much like model railroading except for the fact that you get a bunch of stuff at your disposal when you buy the game. If there's some locomotive, rolling stock, or scenery you want to use in the game, you have to download them from a content store on the internet similar to how you have to buy similar things for model railroading from hobby shops or online stores. The only big difference between virtual trains and real model trains is the ability to hold them. If model railroading does die off and it will eventually, just like everything does, virtual model railroading, aka "Train Simulator", will take it's place. Oh, and JNXT, I've found a proper replacement for that hobby shop that I had that bad experience with. It has a lot of the same stuff in terms of H0 scale stuff and the people are so much nicer, plus, I can get the stuff I need at train shows too so I'm pretty much good to go for a while but thanks for recommending that option anyway.And if I ever do come back to that place, it'll be the place I go too if I can't find the thing I need at the other place and/or there's no train show coming up.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
Edited by - kovacste000 on August 14 2014 5:49:06 PM
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Posted - August 14 2014 : 9:05:34 PM
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| I am currently a non-traditional student and will be finishing up my degree this fall. Being nearly 50 years of age I can honestly say that I agree with the observations that have been made by many of you with regard to younger people and their electronics. It is a little disheartening for me as I love working with my hands and wish that many of these students could understand the satisfaction that that comes from actually making something versus rearranging colored dots that only exist in a two dimensional world. That said, I am a little more optimistic on the future of the hobby in that these new devices can also be used to create models faster are more affordably than ever before. I am also hopeful that a new generation of kids that were raised on Thomas the Tank Engine will one day rediscover the hobby and become nostalgic about the charm of the stories and keep it alive with their own children. Also I would point out the United States is perhaps unique in that anything at all that is not related to baseball/football or sports in general is automatically labeled as (geeky). You find quite a different attitude in the U.K. were being a rail-fan is considered the norm rather than the exception.
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Posted - August 14 2014 : 9:59:51 PM
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No kidding metal smith! Not too big into sports. It;s not my life to watch ESPN every minute! I noticed guys I work with play games and one guy is like, what ya do for fun? No playing video games! Another guy I was talking to was saying, I wish my son thought that way! Depressing to hear that. Kids these days won't even touch Lego's (my generation's erector set). I see kids at the shows, they just look hurted and sad they were drug away from the electronics! I was at a friend's social event and some mom's kid played his hand held video game thing the whole time!
" Heck with counting 'em rivets, TRAINS ARE FOR FUN! Not called the Mad Scientist for nothing either!"
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Posted - August 14 2014 : 10:51:16 PM
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No to get off subject, I think these electronics are to blame for us younger adults making new friends and finding our soul mate!
" Heck with counting 'em rivets, TRAINS ARE FOR FUN! Not called the Mad Scientist for nothing either!"
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Posted - August 14 2014 : 11:42:45 PM
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quote:No kidding metal smith! Not too big into sports. It;s not my life to watch ESPN every minute! I noticed guys I work with play games and one guy is like, what ya do for fun? No playing video games! Another guy I was talking to was saying, I wish my son thought that way! Depressing to hear that. Kids these days won't even touch Lego's (my generation's erector set). I see kids at the shows, they just look hurted and sad they were drug away from the electronics! I was at a friend's social event and some mom's kid played his hand held video game thing the whole time!
Originally posted by Redneck Justin - August 14 2014 : 9:59:51 PM
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That is 100% true. I see kids around my age all the time playing on their cell phones and what not. Heck, they know I'm into model railroading and they think it's a childish thing even though the majority of the model railroading population is ages 30 or over. What I ended up telling those kids from school was all the skills you learn overtime in the hobby to make sure they know it's not a child thing because it just isn't! Now that I told them about the important skills you learn in model railroading, they think I'm a total geek/nerd even though to be honest, cell phones are way more nerdy/geeky than model railroading ever got.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
Edited by - kovacste000 on August 14 2014 11:43:05 PM
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Posted - August 16 2014 : 7:30:48 PM
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Personally, I think the future of model railroading lies with technology. In fact, if more hobby manufacturers can embrace new technology, the "golden age" of model railroading might just be beginning.
3D printing: More and more hobbyists are using computer design and 3D printing services like Shapeways to make specialty parts and models of obscure prototypes.
Remote control and battery power: Though this is not technically a new technology, batteries small enough to fit in HO scale trains are becoming available. Battery powered model trains would eliminate the need for tedious track cleaning and wiring, and create new possibilities for scenery.
Train simulators: Virtual railroading is a great alternative for people who don't have space for a model railroad layout. It also appeals to those interested in computer design.
Digital control: Digital command control is already popular to control locomotives, but it can also be used to control signals, switches and other layout features.
There are many more innovations in technology that are changing the hobby right now, these four are just a few of them.
ChessieRR
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Posted - August 16 2014 : 7:51:04 PM
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quote:Personally, I think the future of model railroading lies with technology. In fact, if more hobby manufacturers can embrace new technology, the "golden age" of model railroading might just be beginning.
3D printing: More and more hobbyists are using computer design and 3D printing services like Shapeways to make specialty parts and models of obscure prototypes.
Remote control and battery power: Though this is not technically a new technology, batteries small enough to fit in HO scale trains are becoming available. Battery powered model trains would eliminate the need for tedious track cleaning and wiring, and create new possibilities for scenery.
Train simulators: Virtual railroading is a great alternative for people who don't have space for a model railroad layout. It also appeals to those interested in computer design.
Digital control: Digital command control is already popular to control locomotives, but it can also be used to control signals, switches and other layout features.
There are many more innovations in technology that are changing the hobby right now, these four are just a few of them.
ChessieRR
Originally posted by ChessieRRÂ -Â August 16 2014Â :Â 7:30:48 PM
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I don't really like the idea of H0 scale locomotives using batteries. The reason I say that is because 1. It would wear out quickly 2. They may not be totally reliable. These problems could be fixed over time but as of now, I don't really see it happening although if you can get them to last a long time, then I'd take everything I said previously in this post back.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
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Posted - August 16 2014 : 8:45:36 PM
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quote:Personally, I think the future of model railroading lies with technology. In fact, if more hobby manufacturers can embrace new technology, the "golden age" of model railroading might just be beginning.
3D printing: More and more hobbyists are using computer design and 3D printing services like Shapeways to make specialty parts and models of obscure prototypes.
Remote control and battery power: Though this is not technically a new technology, batteries small enough to fit in HO scale trains are becoming available. Battery powered model trains would eliminate the need for tedious track cleaning and wiring, and create new possibilities for scenery.
Train simulators: Virtual railroading is a great alternative for people who don't have space for a model railroad layout. It also appeals to those interested in computer design.
Digital control: Digital command control is already popular to control locomotives, but it can also be used to control signals, switches and other layout features.
There are many more innovations in technology that are changing the hobby right now, these four are just a few of them.
ChessieRR
Originally posted by ChessieRRÂ -Â August 16 2014Â :Â 7:30:48 PM
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Chessie - all good points, I would not disagree....except the question arises in my mind if train simulators are really part of the hobby of model railroading. Meaning, my definition would not include 'virtual' railroading. It's a great aspect of technology, no doubt - but I think what we are discussing is the actual building and operation of real (as in things that exist) scale railroads with all the scenery, accessories, etc. thaat go with it.
http://tycodepot.com/
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Posted - August 16 2014 : 9:58:16 PM
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Stephen - Perhaps I may have phrased it wrong in my previous post, the technology for battery power is already here and is already being used for model railroads, albeit not by many people. Concerning the life of batteries for HO scale locomotives, they last as long as batteries for, say, RC cars or planes. The batteries are also rechargeable, so you can use them many times. As for the reliability, they are more reliable than track power because instead of getting the current through the track and also through the wheels of the locomotive, both of which can get dirty and not conduct electricity well, the power is supplied from inside the locomotive.
JNXT - I agree with you, virtual trains are not technically "model railroads", but if someone doesn't have the room for a real model railroad, or if they prefer typing and clicking on things to gluing and painting things, then at least they can still get involved in the hobby through train simulators, especially the ones which allow you to design your own railways. Personally I prefer building things on my layout to driving a virtual train, but I have tried train simulators. The model railroader I know who has a train simulator also has a 8x8 model railroad, he works on his model railroad and also uses the train simulator as a sort of "dream layout", the kind of thing he would build if he were given a million dollars and a huge warehouse to build in.
Edited by - ChessieRR on August 16 2014 9:58:45 PM
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Posted - August 16 2014 : 10:40:40 PM
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quote:Stephen - Perhaps I may have phrased it wrong in my previous post, the technology for battery power is already here and is already being used for model railroads, albeit not by many people. Concerning the life of batteries for HO scale locomotives, they last as long as batteries for, say, RC cars or planes. The batteries are also rechargeable, so you can use them many times. As for the reliability, they are more reliable than track power because instead of getting the current through the track and also through the wheels of the locomotive, both of which can get dirty and not conduct electricity well, the power is supplied from inside the locomotive.
JNXT - I agree with you, virtual trains are not technically "model railroads", but if someone doesn't have the room for a real model railroad, or if they prefer typing and clicking on things to gluing and painting things, then at least they can still get involved in the hobby through train simulators, especially the ones which allow you to design your own railways. Personally I prefer building things on my layout to driving a virtual train, but I have tried train simulators. The model railroader I know who has a train simulator also has a 8x8 model railroad, he works on his model railroad and also uses the train simulator as a sort of "dream layout", the kind of thing he would build if he were given a million dollars and a huge warehouse to build in.
Originally posted by ChessieRRÂ -Â August 16 2014Â :Â 9:58:16 PM
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Oh, sorry. I wasn't thinking of rechargeable batteries, I was thinking about something like AA batteries which is why I read your post wrong. Again, like you said, it has to do with not wording it correctly. But even then, I apologize for misreading your post. So in this case, I do take back everything I said in that post because the ability for model trains to have rechargeable batteries is in fact a good idea.As long as they work of course.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
Edited by - kovacste000 on August 16 2014 10:45:17 PM
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Posted - August 16 2014 : 10:44:37 PM
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maybe this is why I find train stuffs so cheap lately?
Cause the kids of a relative or father has died or retired & they just want to rid themselves of the crap 
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Posted - August 16 2014 : 10:48:43 PM
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quote:maybe this is why I find train stuffs so cheap lately?
Cause the kids of a relative or father has died or retired & they just want to rid themselves of the crap
Originally posted by microbusss - August 16 2014 : 10:44:37 PM
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That is actually quite true. For a lot of the shows I go to of course. There was one table that was run by a kid who was probably still in High School or possibly early in college. He was selling all sorts of stuff that didn't work period for way too much money for what they were. Most of them seem to have been found in his grandparent's attic or something which would explain their condition.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
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Posted - August 17 2014 : 12:05:19 AM
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quote: quote:maybe this is why I find train stuffs so cheap lately?
Cause the kids of a relative or father has died or retired & they just want to rid themselves of the crap
Originally posted by microbusss - August 16 2014 : 10:44:37 PM
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That is actually quite true. For a lot of the shows I go to of course. There was one table that was run by a kid who was probably still in High School or possibly early in college. He was selling all sorts of stuff that didn't work period for way too much money for what they were. Most of them seem to have been found in his grandparent's attic or something which would explain their condition.
Originally posted by kovacste000Â -Â August 16 2014Â :Â 10:48:43 PM
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Yeah, it seems like when people sell trains they don't know anything about, they either price them very high or very low. I got a whole bunch of almost brand new blue box athearn locomotives for $1 each one time, but a find like that that is rare compared to the amount of times people have tried to sell me their junk life-like trainset cars for $20s each.
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Posted - August 17 2014 : 12:45:47 AM
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quote: quote: quote:maybe this is why I find train stuffs so cheap lately?
Cause the kids of a relative or father has died or retired & they just want to rid themselves of the crap
Originally posted by microbusss - August 16 2014 : 10:44:37 PM
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That is actually quite true. For a lot of the shows I go to of course. There was one table that was run by a kid who was probably still in High School or possibly early in college. He was selling all sorts of stuff that didn't work period for way too much money for what they were. Most of them seem to have been found in his grandparent's attic or something which would explain their condition.
Originally posted by kovacste000Â -Â August 16 2014Â :Â 10:48:43 PM
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Yeah, it seems like when people sell trains they don't know anything about, they either price them very high or very low. I got a whole bunch of almost brand new blue box athearn locomotives for $1 each one time, but a find like that that is rare compared to the amount of times people have tried to sell me their junk life-like trainset cars for $20s each.
Originally posted by ChessieRRÂ -Â August 17 2014Â :Â 12:05:19 AM
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I've been through very similar situations where I got an Athearn Blue Box D&RG stock car in great shape, weathered, and it had a box for free from the guy selling it.Other times, I've seen a rusted out Mantua loco that looks like it's been in an attic for decades selling for like $40 or something like that.In fact, that was one of the locos that I was talking about in my previous post about that teenager selling model railroad stuff.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
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Posted - August 17 2014 : 01:14:37 AM
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I know who has a train simulator also has a 8x8 model railroad, he works on his model railroad and also uses the train simulator as a sort of "dream layout", the kind of thing he would build if he were given a million dollars and a huge warehouse to build in.
Originally posted by ChessieRRÂ -Â August 16 2014Â :Â 9:58:16 PM
[/quote]
Guys, no offense! But if someone ever gives me a million dollars and a huge warehouse , or even if I EARN a million bucks and the warehouse... I'm not going to spend it on a train layout....
I actually felt a bit greedy with the 8X20...
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Posted - August 17 2014 : 4:20:22 PM
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Unfortunately, it seems that antique dealers get a lot of estate finds, then mark them up accordingly to antique store price levels.
There's an antique store literally just down the road from me now that has an entire corner of the building set aside for model railroad - mostly HO - stuff. Sounds great, but he has the stuff priced at literally twice what you would expect at a train show. Frustrating.
http://tycodepot.com/
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Posted - August 17 2014 : 5:11:17 PM
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quote:Unfortunately, it seems that antique dealers get a lot of estate finds, then mark them up accordingly to antique store price levels.
There's an antique store literally just down the road from me now that has an entire corner of the building set aside for model railroad - mostly HO - stuff. Sounds great, but he has the stuff priced at literally twice what you would expect at a train show. Frustrating.
Originally posted by JNXT 7707Â -Â August 17 2014Â :Â 4:20:22 PM
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You mean like Evilbay? Seriously though, I see people selling that sort of H0 scale stuff on Ebay (Evilbay) for insanely high prices. At least for what they are of course.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
Edited by - kovacste000 on August 17 2014 5:14:49 PM
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Posted - August 17 2014 : 6:20:44 PM
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Our local antique store does the same thing but every month or so the shop owner reduces the prices until the stuff sells. I have got some real bargains. quote:Unfortunately, it seems that antique dealers get a lot of estate finds, then mark them up accordingly to antique store price levels.
There's an antique store literally just down the road from me now that has an entire corner of the building set aside for model railroad - mostly HO - stuff. Sounds great, but he has the stuff priced at literally twice what you would expect at a train show. Frustrating.
Originally posted by JNXT 7707Â -Â August 17 2014Â :Â 4:20:22 PM
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