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 Posted - February 01 2014 : 10:07:43 AM
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Was putting the finishing touches on am AHM C-liner last night, standing in the shop room holding it in one hand and a blow dryer in the other (don't ask  )
One second I'm holding it, the next it's falling to the floor - a fall that went into one of those 'slow motion' movie sequences.
Disaster ensued, with the metal plate that the motor mounts to ending up bent being the worst, along with two of the 4 plastic tabs it screws to breaking off. 
For all intents and purposes it is trashed, but I decided to give it a go since it was (WAS) running so well. And just as an aside, wow these old C-liners aren't the slow-speed wonders that modern locos are but I was amazed at this thing's pulling power, one power truck and all.
After a couple hours of late-night/early AM surgery, I think it all depends on whether the re-glued tabs will hold to the frame as to whether this particular unit will run again. I managed to get the metal plate bent back flat and straight (at least close, to the eye), and one of the wheels wobbles a bit but not excessively so - won't know about that when or if it runs again.
I guess I should consider myself lucky that was the first loco I have ever dropped 
http://tycodepot.com/
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 Posted - February 01 2014 : 10:10:54 AM
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| oops,something i think happens to most of us,hope all ends well after the surgery,and said loco makes full recovery ken
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Posted - February 01 2014 : 10:28:10 AM
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did you take pix of the damage? 
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Posted - February 01 2014 : 1:31:44 PM
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I remember how that scenario played out back in 1970 as the reason my parents ended up buying me a Marklin set for my first train set! I was 6 years old at the time, and sales pitch used by the salesman at Ernie's Toyland in Marysville, CA was quite unique! He picked up a Marklin 3000 series 0-6-0 switcher, held it at chest level, and proceeded to let it drop to the hard floor some 5' below! He then picked up the venerable switcher, put it on the demonstration track, and away she went! Never skipped a beat! Can you say "SOLD"! Do you think the salesman would have done this with an Athearn or Tyco?  I don't think so! It's fate would have been similar to the C-Liners' I'm sure!
Although I concentrate on the collection and restoration of Athearn Yellow Box and Tyco Red Box era sets, I've got a few Marklin sets, and the centerpiece of those sets is; you guessed it, the the one I got as a 6 year old, fully restored back to operation and visual appeal after several years of abuse by a very young model train enthusiast! 
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Posted - February 01 2014 : 4:04:25 PM
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Hey Jerry, if you need parts I probably have 50 of those C-liners of various vintages.
Randy
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Posted - February 01 2014 : 8:14:44 PM
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LOL no pics of the damage, I do not want to remember the sight
I have not done any more surgery, may wait until tomorrow to give the glued plastic time to cure to full strength.
rb, thanks for the offer. IF this thing runs again I may only need another axle/wheelset - but we'll see. But one way or another this C-liner is going to get back on the road
http://tycodepot.com/
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Posted - February 01 2014 : 9:19:04 PM
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I can't remember ever dropping an engine, but I know I've had several fly off the layout table, a four foot drop. Miraculously nothing has suffered any permanent damage, just broken couplers and the like. There was one Tyco slotcar that dropped off, threw its body, and then wedged itself between some boxes. It took me days to find, but it still runs fine...
Good luck with your C-Liner. I'm sure you'll have it back on the rails in no time. 
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Posted - February 01 2014 : 9:53:41 PM
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quote:
I had the train falling off the table problem back in the 70s... So I plan to not put the track so close to the edge on this new set up. I believe there is only one side that the track could be near an edge... I broke so many pieces back then it was ridiculous.
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Posted - February 01 2014 : 10:36:30 PM
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| My first layout ended up getting a 4" high piece of plexi-glass running along each side. It saved a couple of trains I'm sure. The big problem was a "bridge" that was made out of cardboard and duplo blocks.
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Posted - February 01 2014 : 11:26:32 PM
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Well folks the patient is out of surgery and back to hauling freight
Wow what a relief!
Although it does have a very slight wobble from that one wheel that was ever so slighty knocked off true, it's growling around the layout like it did before the Big Drop. Hopefully that was the first and last and I got it out of the way!
A stressful event but I did enjoy the stories it brought out, and learning about the Fabled Indestructible Marklin
http://tycodepot.com/
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Posted - February 02 2014 : 01:41:43 AM
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quote:Well folks the patient is out of surgery and back to hauling freight
Wow what a relief!
Although it does have a very slight wobble from that one wheel that was ever so slightly knocked off true, ...LOL]
Originally posted by JNXT 7707Â -Â February 01 2014Â :Â 11:26:32 PM
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Blessed with a Jacob's limp, I'd say!
John
I don't have a one track mind. It depends on the turn-out.
"I love your catenary!"
Is that a power-trip or just another pick-up line?
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Posted - February 03 2014 : 5:18:44 PM
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Well on the plus side you can say it gives it some "character" 
Funny thing I have dismissed these old C-liners in recent years as being sort of crude but after seeing this one pull a fairly heavy freight train around the curves of my current layout on one power truck AND come back from a major drop on concrete with only the help of my simple skills...I'm pretty impressed.
I'd like to find a NYC one now....
http://tycodepot.com/
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Posted - February 03 2014 : 10:46:27 PM
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It's the Scooby-Doo Mystery Inc. episode "The Wild Brood" all over again!
But at least your railroad is still in use, unlike the one in Crystal Cove that was rendered out of service for the remainder of the series after the bridge was wrecked and they didn't bother to repair it after the subsequent (and violent) train wreck.)
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Posted - February 05 2014 : 5:56:11 PM
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Friends, A moment of silence please for the innards of Penn Central C-Liner #5050 .... rounding a curve last night past the freight depot, while hauling a heavy coal drag...it emitted a blood-curdling sound I never wish to hear again...and then ran no more.
The investigating team from the railroad said that apparently the horrific collision with the "concrete floor" had done more damage than was known earlier, actually warping the power truck to the extent that the unit's days were numbered and fate sealed.
The Acquisition Team will begin searching for a replacement immediately.
That is all. 
http://tycodepot.com/
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Posted - February 05 2014 : 9:02:58 PM
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It's almost as if you need more parts; huh?
Randy
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Posted - February 05 2014 : 9:37:14 PM
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quote:It's almost as if you need more parts; huh?
Originally posted by rbturner - February 05 2014 : 9:02:58 PM
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yeah you could say that!
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Posted - February 05 2014 : 10:11:52 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyFyAqLtHq8
Not to get your hopes up too early but, I think I have a spare C-liner truck.
Edited by - NC shortlines on February 05 2014 10:14:00 PM
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Posted - February 06 2014 : 3:56:35 PM
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Thank you NC....a fitting post....
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Posted - February 06 2014 : 4:52:55 PM
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Jerry,
Did somebody put a hex on it?
You have the better 60's version of the C-Liner with the 5 pole motor. It is possible to install the later version of the truck with plastic gearing, unless you want to keep it original. I have parts for either version, so send a PM if you're interested.
The toughest part is getting the worm off the motor shaft with the machine screw stored in the chassis. Some come off very easily, while others are on so tight they will break the screw if you twist the screwdriver hard enough. I learned it's best to put oil in the threaded hole in the worm (use grease on the screw threads for good measure), brace one armature pole against the magnet (careful with the windings!), and slowly drive the screw into the worm, making sure it's being pushed off the shaft instead of twisting the screw. If it's an early 60's version, it will have a bearing ring with 5 balls in it between the worm & truck frame. Later runs just had double flat washers, and a final version before they went to plastic gears & axles had a plastic worm without washers. Hope this helps.
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - February 06 2014 : 5:27:56 PM
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Nelson - the thought that this unit has been cursed already occurred to me. It's crazy.
And you know, funny thing on this one...it is indeed the older 5-pole version, however the gears in the power truck are plastic. The gears on the axles are brass and of course the worm, but the rest are plastic.
The hit on the concrete did bend the power truck's metal frame slightly. I didn't think (or I hoped) not enough to matter, but apparently so. BTW, there is no machine screw evident. Is it hidden somewhere? Must I chant an ancient AHM incantation?
Here's the other thing - after it quit while pulling the train, I inspected the gears, took them out, put them back in...etc. Put the loco back on the track, and it would not go forward - only reverse...and then in an awful grinding fashion. I repeated the gear inspection...put back on the track...and this is so surreal - the thing would lurch forward, howling in agony...and then BOOM, woul take off whisper quiet and so smooth for about 2-3 feet...and then GRIND down again. Same thing in reverse....until finally it would simply not do anything in foward but hum, like it was locked up.
Next step...I went all the way back, took the motor assembly out, examined it for free movement, looked at the brushes...which didn't look too hot but then again they didn't look all that great starting out when it ran fine. Everything looked OK, or no different than before...so I put everything back together, put the unit on the track....and nothing. Totally dead.
So yes...it has a curse on it. And I swear...the thing is looking at me....
http://tycodepot.com/
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Posted - February 06 2014 : 11:19:29 PM
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Jerry,
The screw should be stored in the front of the fuel tank weight on the LH side, visible in this photo.
http://www.hoseeker.org/ahminformation/ahmcatalog1963page02.jpg
(Not so easy adjustment of worm gear, and it doesn't do that magic feat where it's stored, lol.)
The idlers are plastic on brass axles, with a brass worm & brass axles on the wheel sets. These can be tricky to to get to run well because the worm holds the truck on, so the spacing between the worm and truck is crucial for gear mesh. I leave as little end play as possible to keep the gears aligned. The truck shouldn't flop around when you hold the motor.
It's possible the fall bent the steel truck frame and that it's rubbing the worm at times. It could also bend the motor shaft, but that should cause constant noise. (That's another thing... the motor shaft is relatively soft, unlike Rivarossi which used hardened steel for shafting, so if you don't press the worm back on straight it can bend. Not too hard to straighten, just aggravating.)
My guess is that a bent steel frame, and / or the worm not being on tight enough is allowing the gearing to grind. Did the motor get hot enough to melt anything, or did it just stop running? Closeup photos would help.
The Tyco Depot
Edited by - NickelPlate759 on February 06 2014 11:21:53 PM
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Posted - February 07 2014 : 09:28:37 AM
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I appreciate you sharing all of your knowledge on these NKP. It sounds like you have worked on a lot of these AHM units. Some real good info in your posts for us who are keeping the old gals running.
Randy
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Posted - February 07 2014 : 8:50:42 PM
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I agree with randy, nelson - your experience with C-liners is going to be a big help.
AND I got a C-liner care package in the mail today (thanks again randy!) that has injected some hope into the roundhouse here
Some great folks here on this site!
I will post my progress and some photos as I get into this again.....
http://tycodepot.com/
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Posted - February 07 2014 : 8:55:44 PM
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A Fairbanks-Morse, first aid kit Jerry.
Randy
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Posted - February 08 2014 : 06:22:02 AM
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Thanks, Randy. I have restored a lot of these power trucks in C-Liners and BL2's because I find it to be a fun challenge. Tweaking them is trial and error. I only recently hit on the idea of lubricating the worm screw when removing it, because I did have one screw shear off inside the worm (it's never coming off now, but unit runs very well as I was only removing it to do a thorough cleaning), but it has allowed me to remove worms I thought were never going to budge. I use my trusty Super Lube for the task. So what's in your C-Liner survival kit?
Jerry, also look out for that plastic coupler spacer, which is easy to forget about or let slip so that it ends up caught in the gearing, which would make it grind or stall completely, as would any other broken piece of the truck. That whole coupler arrangement with the C spring, spacer, screw and nut on the rear truck is a PITA to put together. It's also a weak spot where the truck casting often splits, or breaks away entirely if it's suffered rough handling (like being dropped  ).
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - February 08 2014 : 10:28:46 AM
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Nelson, my experience with the AHM stuff has usually been due to the brush mounting area on the motor melting and causing failure. Pretty much general motor work. I have never gotten into the repairs to the extent you describe on these units but I think your suggestions are very helpful for getting these old girls to run as best they can.
These old mechanisms are too often classified as cheap junk when in reality a true repairman can tease out some good performance from them.
Randy
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Posted - February 10 2014 : 10:21:23 AM
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quote:
These old mechanisms are too often classified as cheap junk when in reality a true repairman can tease out some good performance from them.
Originally posted by rbturner - February 08 2014 : 10:28:46 AM
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Hmmm...well then theses poor FM C-Liners are in trouble!
Question - can the 5-pole motor core (sorry don't know the proper term) be used in the 3-pole mechanism? In other words can I take the motor apart, put the 5-pole into the 3-pole motor?
The great news about those BL2s I picked up at the train show - they have the worm adjustment screw!
http://tycodepot.com/
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Posted - February 10 2014 : 3:37:52 PM
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Jerry,
Yes, the guts of either version of the motor can be swapped between the plastic housings. Is the motor housing damaged? The only downside of the all plastic housing of the 3 pole version is the smaller bearings that will probably make it noisier. If you do a swap, carefully remove the armature and magnetic field together (pulling the armature out of the field will sacrifice much of the magnetism).
If the plastic housing is cracked, it can be glued. One 60's C-Liner I bought had a cracked motor that must have been that way from the get-go, since the magnet hadn't been cut correctly leaving a big bump on the top that broke the plastic when the screws were tightened. I had to grind the magnet into shape and repair the housing, but after that it was fine. These were made on the cheap, but the design is sturdy enough that they can run well with a little work.
Can any of those BL2's serve as parts donors? If so, you can swap the whole truck.
One other tip: be sure to lube the front axles and axle wipers, since they never did at the factory.
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - February 10 2014 : 5:37:16 PM
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Nelson - thanks for the response. First off, I did kind of have it in my mind that the BL2s could be donors but once I got them home and took a good look wow these things sure are pretty, and I would like to get them going again!
So the goal is to get hem running (they are not, but another story and project there ).
Anyway, I have 2 parts chassis with 3-pole motors, plus another one if you want to count the dummy I made from my old ORIGINAL #1 C-liner, which interestingly still has the 3-pole motor core inside (never could figure out how to remove it!), plus the cursed 5-pole motored C-liner that met the concrete.
I THINK, at least just from observations, that the motor did not suffer damage itself, other than the metal plate it was attached to being bent. Will keep fingers crossed on that for the moment.
Now, just to explain about the BL2s - to the eye, they appear to need no more than a good cleaning/lube to get going again. Old and dusty, and the commutators are filthy black. Would give a little lurch upon application of power, but that's it.
Back to the FM C-liner before I shut up - there was a post somewhere where you explained the size plastic tube you used to repair the front trucks - do you happen to have that size handy? will need to do that fix.
Thanks a lot for the help
http://tycodepot.com/
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Posted - February 10 2014 : 8:40:35 PM
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I forgot about that.
The hole in the chassis for the front truck will just take 5/16" tubing, so you might have to enlarge it slightly. Make a plastic cross piece and glue it to the top to lock it in place. If there's enough left of the old truck mounting tabs to work with, you can just put the cross piece on top of them.
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - February 10 2014 : 9:23:57 PM
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Thanks Nelson. Will post updates as I get into it.
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