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babuff
Little Six
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 Posted - December 03 2013 : 3:31:13 PM
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this one has me stumped and I need you guys to help. I picked up an athearn 6 wheel diesel at albany last weekend and the seller said it does run. After I got it home and tested it it ran, for about a min. before tripping the breaker on my power pack. it is an old style meatal frame and the wheel sets conect to the frame by suspending from it by way of the worm gear housing with one side making contact with the under side of the frame and the other side has a contact that connects to a strap that goes to the top of the motor. the motor in this is the old 60's style with no flywheels. I replaced that with a brand new motor from Horizon which tested fine, and still the same problem. I then disassembled the power trucks cleaned all contacts, put in brand new wheel sets (the side frames are plastic pop ons) cleaned all grease and oil off the gears, checked the contact plates to make sure they were not touching and reassembled everything with just one drop of oil each. tested it and it would run for a min. before the pilot light on the power pack dimms and the breaker shuts it off. I tested the power pack it self, no problem. cheked the track and connections, no problem. It does not matter if the engine is going forward or reverse, it does the same thing. I have 2 identical engines and I don't have any problem with them.
leo
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Posted - December 03 2013 : 3:58:47 PM
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* Say it with a photo. Seeing it helps. You need a power pack with leads and alligator clips. You also if you intend to repair locomotives need a multimeter. For checking this loco you need to use the ohm meter.
* How are you fixed for this stuff. If you got them. come back and post a photo of the loco with the body removed. photos top and bottom, left and right of each. I am certain quite a few people here can walk you through troubleshooting this loco if I ant around.
* I'll come back and see if you are here.
frank
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on December 03 2013 4:13:28 PM
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Posted - December 03 2013 : 5:07:43 PM
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Since it will run for a minute or so, it's not a dead short.
Try disconnecting one of the trucks from the motor and run it with only one truck connected.
Unspoken expectations are premeditated failures.
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babuff
Little Six
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Posted - December 03 2013 : 5:45:29 PM
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frank I have a multimeter. here are some fast pics
will try to get better ones soon
leo
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Posted - December 03 2013 : 7:16:00 PM
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May I suggest;
1. Remove the top contact strip from the motor to the trucks and place the unit on the tracks
>IF the short goes away
>>>Suspect the motor (try using a jumper between the the top of the motor and the track)
>>>If shorted then motor housing touching frame or bad motor
>IF the short is still there suspect the truck mounting first.
>>>Check for a short between the frame and each contact bar on each truck
>>>>>remove each truck one at a time [note one truck is left attached at a time]
>>>>>if short goes away then repair or replace bad truck. Be sure and do not let the frame short to the track while testing
Remember the head light assembly can cause a short.
A meter utube video is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF3OyQ3HwfU
hope this helps John *************
If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it? <> Albert Einstein
Edited by - JRG1951 on December 03 2013 7:22:44 PM
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babuff
Little Six
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Posted - December 04 2013 : 11:03:23 AM
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I am beginning to suspect the motor is the problem. for some reason it runs fine when disconnected from the power truck, yet when connected to one or both, it seems to be drawing a lot of power under load.
frank if you are out there: what should I be checking with my multimeter and what should I be looking for? John sent me to a video that gave me some info, but not exactly what I needed for this situation .
John I carefully checked to make sure the motor is not grounding out against the frame and like wise the power trucks too. I even checked to make sure that the thrust washers were on the worm shaft. I did as you suggested and tested each power truck seperately and got the same results. your comment about the headlight got me to thinking. this unit has no headlight on it, but for ha ha sake I instaled one. a curious thing happened. without the top motor clip on it lit strong and bright. put the clip back on and it barely lights up. I tested both power trucks this way and it lit up fine. this means I am getting juice up to the contacts with no shorting out. This would mean that there is a resistance problem with the clip or a bad winding in the motor armature. What bothers me is 2 motors with the same problem? I am tepted to swap the motor from her sister engines, which run perfect and see what happens.
leo
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Posted - December 04 2013 : 11:58:40 AM
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Leo,
Check for binding by leaving the drive shafts off the trucks. If the motor runs smooth then I would suspect the truck(s) is/are the problem. The motor and both trucks can be checked using finger power to check for binding.
WARNING: Do not do this at home, as there is more than a beginners skill level required.
I am sending the link so you can get an idea of the parts and wiring on Athearn Blue Box engines.
I am not suggesting that you try to upgrade as per the article.
http://www.mcor-nmra.org/Publications/Articles/Athearn_TuneUp.html
good luck, John **********************
If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck. <> Clint Smith
Edited by - JRG1951 on December 04 2013 12:31:13 PM
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Posted - December 05 2013 : 12:40:46 AM
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I would take some fine sandpaper or even a big eraser and polish up the steel contacts and strip. The rust wouldn't cause high current draw, but it could introduce some resistance.
Since it had the old Jet motor I thought it might have the diecast sideframe pre-flywheel trucks, which would rub the flywheels, but obviously that isn't the case. Do both trucks spin freely? Expanding on John's idea, I would run the motor with only one truck connected at a time to see if one of them is binding. Sometimes there's flash in the gearbox bogging things down. Wouldn't hurt to check for split axle gears while you're at it.
The Tyco Depot
Edited by - NickelPlate759 on December 05 2013 12:49:51 AM
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Posted - December 05 2013 : 08:28:13 AM
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* Now question one. have you lubricated the loco problem drive ?
Checking for a free moving and unobstructed drive.
* Sit down at your test bench, table, desk, or as the Buss would do your trash can. You have your power pack plugged in and ready to go. It has leads and alligator clips for testing on it and they can reach your track and the loco. Now get your good PA1 and bring it over to the table. remove its body and expose the drive. Put it aside where you can reach it. Place the problem loco on the track rounded end to the right as in your photo. Now the track next to you puts power to those 2 metal uprights from the trucks that put power to the brush at the top of the motor. the track away from you put power to the frame, through it to a metal clip on the bottom of the motor and in turn to the brush on the bottom of the motor. This is the same for all blue box locos. Now place the other, good loco drive parallel to and in line with the problem frame. This is for comparison checks of the two. You can learn from the good as to what is right.
* With you left hand, thumb and pointed fingers reach down to the flywheel on the left side and with slight effort turn the flywheel. The drive should turn very easily. If not, Lube the drive. Do this for three rotations of the wheels. Then Pick up the drive, at a slight angle so the front truck clears the track by holding the front truck with your fingers. turn the truck for a right turn, also turn the frame so the other truck is in a right turn also, now spin the left flywheel with you left hand. Spin through 3 rotations of the drive wheels. Do this also for a left turn. You should do this because you haven't done this before, also check the good drive to feel what a good one feels like. I think you will feel restriction of movement is the problem and think this is where your problem is. A good oiling should make it all better if you have good parts.
* As the Doc. would say," Take 2 drops of oil and call me in the morning"
*It is hard to check something when it is not in front of you.
* If your drive moves freely through straight-away's, and left, and right turns. A good motor properly mounted will run this loco.
* What you lube. Use just a small drop of oil. Motor shaft , axel, and worm gear shaft bearings. Sliding drive links, gears- outside teeth and center pivot.
* If problem persists as I said call me. We will set something up to where we can talk. This method of using the computer isn't the best way to do this. So PM me.
frank
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on December 05 2013 10:24:10 AM
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Posted - December 05 2013 : 10:02:57 AM
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Disconnect both drive couplings to the trucks.
Connect one lead from your multimeter to the contact bar on top of the motor.
connect the other lead from your meter to the frame of the loco.
Put it on the track and run the motor at a moderate speed.
See what readings you get from your meter.
Also, I have seen the contact bar pinch the plastic ends of the motor too hard and causing the motor shaft to bind.
The contact bar is a problem on all the Athearns if you ask me. I remove the bar and solder wires from the motor to the trucks on my locos.
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babuff
Little Six
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Posted - December 05 2013 : 5:18:38 PM
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I contacted Horrizon and thier diagnosis is a bad brush or spring overheating. they are sending me a new set. we shall see.
frank: I checked as you suggested. I had only put a drop or two of oil on the worm and gear and she turned ok. I did notice a slight bind when turned to the left or right but I managed to work that out ok . It is turning nice and smooth now.
NC: I did just what you said. I first hooked up the multimeter to my good one and got a steady set of readings over a period of 3 min. I next hooked up the problem unit. The readings were the same, at first, then shot up through the roof. Bad motor. As frank said comparing something to a known quantity is always best
John: thank you so much for the new link. It not only explained everything, but convinced me to hard wire everything. I don't know if I will do the "5 wire" setup or not, but as I eventualy want to try DCC it gave me the info I can use.
thank you to all who helped. I will post an update when I get the new brush set.
leo
P.S. John where do you get all those quotes? I love them.
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Posted - December 06 2013 : 12:46:51 AM
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Leo,
I hope you get that loco to run. I try to be careful with advice as I'm not sure of a person's skill level. I hope you did not get the impression I was talking down to you. I know in my life I have found myself in way over my head on projects rather quickly. I'm sure everyone here wants to help without adding more frustration to the problem.
I'm glad you enjoy my quotes, I enjoy sharing them. I have collected almost as many quotes as I have locomotives. let us know how the fix goes on the Athearn.
Regards, john *****************
Everything in life is temporary. So if things are going good, enjoy it because it won't last forever. And if things are going bad, don't worry. It can't last forever. <> Unknown
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Posted - December 06 2013 : 10:48:28 AM
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You may want to dissassemble the trucks, clean them of any old lube, and reassemble them with new lubricant.
I helped out a guy at the last Rochester Greenberg show when he had a DOA Athearn Trainmaster, someone wanted. The worm gears were locked right up in it. I swapped them out from an FP45 and he gave me the FP45 with the bad gears.
I played with it and was able to free them up using pliers to turn the bearings. No idea why they locked up. It came out of an estate and had been sitting for probably 10 years, and the engine itself was old enough to have the metal sideframes.
But I just also fixed an AHM GP18 that didn't want to run by changing a brush spring, so who knows.
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