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 Posted - October 29 2013 : 7:20:25 PM
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First off, I've never kitbashed anything before. Those closest I've come to kitbashing anything, is using part of a parts-sprue for the idler wheel aaxle on a tank model after I broke the original.
ANYWAY, I was wondering, what would it take to convert the mantua camelback 2-8-2 into a 4-8-0? There appears to be ample room underneath the firebox, and one can simple flip the drivers so the drive is on axle 2 instead of 3, so not to change rods. Plus, the camelback 4-6-2 appears to be the same, regarding the lead bogie...
Anyway, what do you guys think? What do I need?
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Posted - October 30 2013 : 12:24:18 AM
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| Looks like an interesting project. Is there a prototype that you're wanting to model?
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Posted - October 30 2013 : 08:49:56 AM
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| I don't really have the skills for that...eheh, Mantua models tend to be a bit generic anyway, so I'm not planning of changing the boiler shell.
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Posted - October 30 2013 : 09:06:07 AM
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I think the big thing will be to keep the weight centered over the drivers. They'll be scooted pretty far back, so you'll need lots of weight near the back.
Carpe Manana!
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Posted - October 30 2013 : 11:45:45 AM
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Ahh, thanks. But, how do I extend the frame back to allow to the rear drivers? Where can I find a disassembly diagram for the engine?
EDIT: Found the diagrams (Whilst searching for a different engine no less) http://www.hoseeker.net/mantuainstructions.html
Edited by - PanzerschreckLeopard on October 30 2013 11:58:46 AM
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Posted - October 30 2013 : 3:11:26 PM
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PanzerschreckLeopard,
As much as some of us do a LOT of kitbashing on locomotives (YES, I'm guilty) I have to say, NO the Mantua/TYCO 4-8-0 will NOT fit that boiler, not by means of simple unbolt and bolt on......They are 2 completely different sizes to be able to do this.....
To make it work right, the front would have to line up.... and bolt the cylinders to the center line of the smoke stack, and if you look the length of the 4-8-0 frame is to short to mount under the cab of the Camelback boiler pictured here.
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid... 
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - October 30 2013 : 3:41:08 PM
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Oh, nonono, I'm not messing up the existing 4-8-0. :P I meant to modify this one, cause I've got no money to buy another one.
I considered the OTHER 2-8-2 a possibility, but then, the wheels would project into the firebox. (Although their 2-10-0 that uses the same boiler doesn't care for that [maybe it's oil fired like the Mexican 4-8-0s], but I don't know where to get those.)
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Posted - October 30 2013 : 7:09:22 PM
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PanzerschreckLeopard,
WELL OHHH BOY!!!!! To get that frame to become a 4-8-0.... You are going to need a Milling machine OR a serious amount of patients!
See my picture:
The work is imbedded into the picture!
Hope this helps! Yes, its quite a project!
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - October 30 2013 : 7:31:38 PM
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| Ahh, that looks nice! I've seen a few mantua lead bogies just for that purpose...I MIGHT have to move one of the flangeless wheels to the rear, to clear the spot where the screw holds the frame to body...Well, then, any instructions as to how to edit the frame or add a new one?
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Posted - October 30 2013 : 8:16:18 PM
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This is a locomotive, I've been pondering to custom build, for a long time! It took some serious "getting over" hacking up a Rivarossi 2-10-2, plus, make it heavier, and run well...... So...
Built just like the B&O did there's! Mine was done the exact same way, in scale! As you'll see below:
And the following are of the frame, BEFORE any milling took place!
I have this locomotive completed and in a display case, so, the finished model will have pictures done!
With the recent choice of Yellowstone Train Repairs casting just about EVERYTHING to make these locomotive possible it has taken time to get to finishing even one of my own as well as customers, but the next few pictures, will show whats being done and what the end result is!
First up, a 3/4 view of the model:
A shot of the tender:
This next one shows a picture of whats been done to the cab......(I've casted this detail for all those B&O modelers out there!)
Opposite side of the 3/4 view:
Opposite side of the tender:
And for the last one, the opposite side of the full side view of the locomotive showing the cab detail, just the other side:
Alot of AWESOME details went into this one, and the nice thing for anyone interested, is it ALL can be replicated for production!
Here is a start of a MUCH EASIER model, but this will give you a bit of sense of the work involved.
Your Mantua model, or TYCO, isn't going to be easy.... by no sense of the word.....Which, all depends on your skill level, and patients....
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
Edited by - EM-1 on October 31 2013 12:38:12 AM
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Posted - October 30 2013 : 8:46:29 PM
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So you know, the last model I've posted, above....that model? Looked like this:
http://beutelevision.com/images/bo2-10-2.jpg
They were the same type locomotive....I don't own the model in the link, it was one of our "LOTW" from another member....BUT, the loco I posted and that persons was the same, pay particular attention to the front pilot wheels....
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - October 30 2013 : 9:52:47 PM
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| This ought to be interesting to see how you do it.
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Posted - October 30 2013 : 10:05:35 PM
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| Ahh, wonderful! I hope I can get to work on mine soon...
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Posted - October 31 2013 : 12:41:27 AM
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I have done all sorts....And as you get around the forums, you'll find more that I've done.... This Rivarossi B&O 2-10-2 to be a Rivarossi B&O 4-8-2, is just one of the things....
Mike, I too am interested in how he does this one....Its not going to prove easy, I can say that much! As you know of some of the things, I've got planned!
PanzerschreckLeopard,
I myself can't wait to see how you go about starting this one!!!!!
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
Edited by - EM-1 on October 31 2013 01:05:21 AM
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Posted - October 31 2013 : 06:33:39 AM
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If I could just add another "notch" for the rear axle, would that work?
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Posted - October 31 2013 : 10:13:15 PM
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You could, BUT that "notch" has to be precision-ly added to the frame for the side rods, to work without binding....VERY tight tolerances for such things, I hope you own a caliper or even a Micrometer for the measuring your going to need to do as the thickness of a pencil line could destroy or make this model..... BE sure you know the measurement BEFORE you make ANY cuts, or notches or ANYTHING and sure of yourself..... as that could mean the end result going on your tracks, or in your trash can!
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - October 31 2013 : 10:59:38 PM
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You're going about it the hard way, the frustrating way, and ultimately, the expensive way.
Here's mine. I just used a tyco 4-8-0 chassis.
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Posted - October 31 2013 : 11:03:26 PM
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In my opinion, this is not something to take on as a first project. As John's already pointed out, you'd have to virtually re-engineer the frame. That's a nice Camelback, too, much nicer (& worth more) than the 4-8-0 you mentioned. I'd start with something easier and less expensive.
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - November 01 2013 : 06:33:46 AM
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If I should use a different engine to do this, it'll take a while just to get one. The only other possibility is that old Bachmann 2-8-0 that keeps jamming the rods recently. But I'd have to find a way to extend the boiler...
Edited by - PanzerschreckLeopard on November 01 2013 06:35:02 AM
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Posted - November 01 2013 : 3:16:55 PM
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PanzerschreckLeopard,
Honestly? I wouldn't waste my time on that Bachmann 2-8-0..........why? You'll get the Camelback boiler mounted to it, and it won't run for crap....Modify the frame to the 4-8-0? STILL requires re-designing of the front, JUST like the other 2-8-2, you pictured....
Thing is, as Mike said, "LGLrr845" your going about this the hard way and As Nelson said "NickelPlate759" this is a VERY difficult task to carry out and be successfully done! I can and have because I have a full shop to do such things.... (I've even extended frames to have MORE wheels then EVER factory intended.....A TYCO 0-8-0, turned into a 0-10-0..... WHOLE other demon tho.....
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - November 02 2013 : 03:59:35 AM
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As I've mentioned.....
I took TWO of these:
2 TYCO 0-8-0's, OR 2-8-0's (I can't remember exactly which was used, but, BOTH are the 0-8-0 and the 2-8-0 I mention here, ARE the same except for the 2-8-0, has a front pilot truck, and the 0-8-0 does, other wise were identical models....
Then I took them, made my markings and set up my milling machine to cut and shave the frames to fit and look like this:
Notice, the Clementine above, has got 8 drivers. My model on the other hand, has 10!!!!! I took a "8 coupled" driver locomotive, shaved off the back of its frame, just about center, spacing behind the last driver OFF the frame. Then took another frame, and the SAME distance, PLUS the thickness of my pencil mark, on this one OFF the front just before the first driver, to "mate" these 2 frame sections. The remaining frame sections, went to back behind the 5th axle,. and was cut off, and the remaining parts once machined off, went into a whole "other" build to make a TYCO 0-6-6-0 from it, which is still to be built as well!
Here, is how this loco frame looks, today:
Underside of it:
The brass plates, hold BOTH frame sections, securely, and at the EXACT distance needed for the drivers, with the rods in place to rotate smoothly without any binding.....This was ALL tested, before the motor, was put into place......
However, I talk of this model, and not a lot has been done to it since I begun its building, as my customers come first and this one sits for a time till I'm able and willing to continue on it, as I have thought of re-building a whole new boiler structure for it instead of using the factory part I have and try to build that to look as the actual prototype I have planned for it...........a B&O 0-10-0 Class U yard switcher. to look like this:
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - November 02 2013 : 09:50:47 AM
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So...Would the easiest way be to just get the Mantua 2-10-0 and remove the lead drivers? (Regardless of boiler I want to use)
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Posted - November 02 2013 : 10:48:27 AM
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aww you killed a Clementine??  I want one Since I has a matching caboose 
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Posted - November 02 2013 : 2:48:01 PM
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John,
Speaking of easier, wouldn't it be easier to make that 0-10-0 out of a Rivarossi S1? From that photo, anyway, it looks like all you'd have to do is remove the trucks and shorten the pilot.
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - November 02 2013 : 6:12:38 PM
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PanzerschreckLeopard,
It be easier to do such, yes, BUT that 2-10-0 frame, is a costly part, IF (AND I'll mention here "IF" you find one..... Mantua, that is....Now granted you could use a Bowser or Penn Line 2-10-0, but again, your going to pay for it to make this model..... these aren't cheap parts or locomotives by any sort of the imagination....
Ben,
Yes, and no....The Clementine was just a model I have had, something like 20 of over thew years, some complete as thew one I pictured, others just "parts" supplies for kitbashing, etc....
Nelson,
Your idea would have been easier, for sure, BUT the issue? The $100 frame to the 2-10-2 from 'Rossi, OR the free TYCO frames I just had laying in the shop collecting dust. (I bet, I still got 50 of those TYCO 2-8-0/0-8-0's!!!!! I choose the TYCO models as I had a large supply, and were plentiful And still are, PLUS, a few other things comes to mind. The 2-10-2, is a nice B&O locomotive to start with....SO, being said that, I can use multiple ones. THEN, the B&O's first 4-8-2 Mountain type locomotives, were actually built off wrecked B&O 2-10-2's!!!!! As is the one I've pictured here....THEN, you have the fact that the 'Rossi B&O 2-10-2, has 64 inch drivers.....The 0-8-0, and or 2-8-0 from TYCO has smaller drivers, more close to prototype for a steam switcher....AND, I had planned to use the left over parts from the TYCO 0-10-0 to go to a TYCO based 0-6-6-0, OR 2-6-6-2, (THIS model is a Western Maryland M-1a....Early years of it, it was a 2-6-6-2, later years, it was re-shoped and came out of Hagerstown loco shops as a 0-6-6-0......So, either would be prototypical.....AND I need a few of them to run with my big WM Challengers, as I havwe to live up to my reputation of Articulateds......
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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