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 Posted - July 12 2006 : 2:56:26 PM
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Great Northern Big Sky Blue Century 430
Wednesday, July 12, 2006
Hello:
Received a picture of a TYCO ALCO Century 430 in Great Northern's late '60s "Big Sky Blue" scheme. The owner found it without its box in an antique shop in Kentucky some time back.
Don't see Great Northern listed among Red Box and I know it is not in any Brown Box Era catalogs. Take a spin over to the ALCO Century 430 page of my site and see it for yourself...
http://tycotrain.tripod.com/tycotrains/id8.html
Does anybody have any further info on this TYCO item? Would be interested in confirming whether it is from the late Red Box Era or if it is a Brown Box item. Also would like to know its stock number.
Can't say I've seen a TYCO Century 430 in Great Northern before this one.
Thanks,
Tony Cook
HO-Scale Trains Resource
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 Posted - July 15 2006 : 6:05:17 PM
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As the owner of the unit in question, I thought I would add a couple observations I've made since acquiring the unit:
- The paint job seems very detailed for TYCO. The paint stripes on the nose are well done, and the reflective stripe squares on the sideframel are a nice touch.
- The gray color is simply molded plastic; the only paint is the blue and white (white on top of blue).
- They didn't paint the uderframe next to the fuel tank, which greatly enhances the unit's appearance (the only other 430 like this I noticed is the Chessie one, which is probably a dark blue but thankfully not yellow).
- The mantua motor-truck is SO much better than the other TYCO's I've used! I can actually RUN this one!
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Posted - July 16 2006 : 1:40:39 PM
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Goingincirclez' terrific GN big sky 430 is also a first-time vieweing for me. It is quite impressive. My suspicion is it is an early brown box offering and I write that based on comparison with my weird early brown box 430 Alco in PC with Mantua/Tyco power, which shares what the Big Sky owner observes as a higher level of paint quality and finish detail as well as the undercarriage paint. or lack thereof. I have a brown-box 430 Alco in Illinois Central which is similarly-embellished and equipped. It was NRFB when purchased from an out-of-business hobby shop and is in a Tyco-printed (not hand stamped) box, numbered 235-J. By the time the 72-3 product price lists roll around the variety of 430s is reduced from #235 A thru 235 G. I'd suggest the GN was made in very limited numbers (like the early KCS GPs and the IC 430s but perhaps even more limited).
By 1974 we know the ICG 430 was catalog listed identically to the IC that preceded it without benefit of a catalog appearance, that is "235J."
I suggest the Big Sky is similarly tied to the BN 430 and has a similarly short life span post CBQ-GN merger.
I was reading an editoral in a 1971 RMC last week responding to reader inquiries about the dearth of particular road names in popular train sets. The response made it very clear the "toy train" companies followed the big train merger game particularly closely and based their marketing decision on what units to produce based on simple demographics: that is, for example: "IC runs through more small towns with target stores than Maine Central." It follows then, that GN would be a very logical 430 choice based on simple demographics and the BN 430 would logically, supercede the GN 430 as soon as the paint shop could be tooled up.
I hope some old Mantua Tyco hand can chime in with the definitive on this neat puzzle.
MagnoliaAcademy
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 Posted - July 20 2006 : 1:19:54 PM
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Hello,
What was that about KCS GPs??? Did TYCO offer a Kansas City Southern GP-20? Have seen many of the Illinois Central C430s you mentioned, but don't know of the KCS geep.
Please elaborate for us...
Thanks,
Tony Cook
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Posted - July 22 2006 : 10:36:08 PM
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Tony:
KCS livery Geep was an up-for-36-hr.-wishful-thinking-brain-fart plain and simple. I was probably referring (I should have been sleeping instead of noodling on your site, so I don't precisely recall my intent) to the ridiculously rare transitional red box GP-20s in their initial IC offering: burnt red-orange cab and frame, silver abaft of the cab with ochre Illinois Central lettering and the usual 5628 beneath the cab window. If these rareties are encountered with any regularity in your neck of the woods let me know. I've only seen three in the last twenty years. The white/orange IC GP-20 superseded the red/silver version seemingly overnight.
I apologize for getting your hopes up: like I say KCS was wishful thinking on my part as well.
M/Academy
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Posted - July 23 2006 : 12:19:23 PM
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Hey,
TYCO certainly did bless the Illinois Central/Illinois Central Gulf will plenty of offerings. From the odd pair of likely never to have been produced models of the GP-20 featuring the black with Green Diamond IC logo of the early '60s...
...to the also likely never produced orange and white Illinois Central Super 630 from the early '70s...
TYCO did serve the IC/ICG well with many actually produced items(GP-20, C430, Super630, and rolling stock).
That late '60s TYCO burnt-orange and silver or white Illinois Central GP-20 is truly an odd attempt. Last time I saw one was on eBay in the last year. I don't think I have ever seen one in the flesh or would it be "in the plastic"???
Tony Cook
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Posted - July 28 2006 : 12:49:08 PM
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That's an interesting aside about roadname choices, but sometimes I really wonder how much attention Tycoreally paid to anything.
I mean, certainly Tyco was keen for the BN, as almost every diesel they had offered a BN version. (of course Santa Fe was just too obvious thanks to Lionel in the 50's). So given this bit of fanboyism, you'd think they could've managed to actually get the BN scheme CORRECT AT LEAST ONCE! [;)]
And really, just look at the roadnames for the E7. BN in yet another fantasy job (albeit an attractive one*), and a somewhat prototypical Union Pacific scheme. But New Haven? Milwaukee Road? Those are beautiful paint jobs (wouldn't mind having them myself), but I can't be convinced that these choices had a national appeal to sell a model that, as pointed out on Tony's page, was pretty much an albatross at the time of its introduction.
Maybe the hands in New Jersey knew we'd be pondering these mysteries 25-odd years later?
*(BN actually used E-units in Chicago commuter service up through the mid-90's, but the paint scheme was nothing close to that. The only time Tyco ever got close to the real BN passenger scheme was on the Sharknose, which... ah nevermind! [:)] )
Edited by - GoingInCirclez on July 29 2006 12:51:22 AM
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Posted - July 28 2006 : 1:10:20 PM
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Actually, just had a thought about BN RTR diesels from the TYCO era, and it seems TYCO isn't the only one who couldn't get it right:
- Lionel's GP30 was offered, but had a huge "alligator head" and roadnumber on the long hood. (The "Burlington 181" was my very first train set at 3 years old, BTW)
- Bachmann's GP40 and GP50 had a silver roof, while the F9 lacked the white striping.
- It seems the only one who got it right was Life-Like, on the GP38-2 and F7!
I wonder what was so hard about the BN scheme to get right? You'd think a road as large and popular as that would have commanded a little more consistency and attention to detail.
Personally, I think after thier awful, retchworthy BN C430, Tyco became a little too fond of the BN "Alligator head" and sought to make it as large as possible...
Edited by - GoingInCirclez on July 29 2006 12:53:02 AM
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Posted - July 28 2006 : 4:05:41 PM
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Tyconauts:
Re: the late red box IC in red and silver. This paint scheme reflects a short-lived IC paint scheme from '69-70, so no fantasy on Mantua/Tyco's part.
Regarding the other conjecture about the livery choices and paint schemes employed by Consolidated Foods Tyco (which I regard as an altogether separate and distinct entity in terms of their product philosophy and market strategy from Mantua/Tyco), GoinginCirclez may be on the money. I wish to point out, however, that choice of livery and accurate rendition of same are two separate issues. What I pointed out in my earlier response was that marketing compelled certain livery choices to increase sales. The question of whether a livery is properly rendered is another matter. Frankly (as GiCz so aptly hinted), once they'd gone down the garden path allowing fantasy car broadsides (A-Team, Jello, SOS and all the rest) and weird innappropriate and outdated motive power like the outlandishly retarditaire (but still cool-looking) E-series diesels, C/F Tyco just wasn't in Kansas anymore.
MagnoliaAcademy
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Posted - July 30 2006 : 12:34:23 PM
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Hey,
Here's another example of the "couldn't get it right BN" painting in HO-Scale...AHM's 1970s Roco-produced Alco Century 424...
/tyco/forum/uploaded/Tony Cook/ahm_century_424_burlington_northern.jpg
Kinda favors the pre-merger green with with stripes that Burlington had on a few locos prior to the official introduction of the BN in March 1970...
/tyco/forum/uploaded/Tony Cook/6469.JPG
Don't forget in the BN attempts there is the great PEMCO F40PH dressed for BN service...
/tyco/forum/uploaded/Tony Cook/pemco_f40ph_catalog.jpg
And Yes, my example does feature a reversed BN herald. [:o] [Oops!]
That BN SD-45 pic is from a great site that features tons of shots of Burlington Northern locos...
http://www.trainpix.com/BN/ROSTER.HTM
You can see more PEMCO trains at my site...
http://tycotrain.tripod.com/pemcorailwaysystem/id21.html
And the BN Century 424 is found on my AHM site...
http://tycotrain.tripod.com/ahmhoscaletrainscollectorsresource/
Tony Cook
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 Posted - August 03 2006 : 8:56:10 PM
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Hello,
I've been following the Tyco Resource page for some time, and have gotten alot of entertainment and info, thank you. I have also been reading the forum topics. I am interest in ho scale modeling, just finished Sam Posey's book and enjojed it. My first Tyco was a set I got for Christmas, '69 or so, that had a Mantua Century 4301 in Santa Fe Warbonnet scheme that I still have complete and run often.
I just picked up a Mantua 430 Alco Century but In Penn Central lighter green with the red P and C. It runs good,lights, no handrails of course. The thing I'd like info on is it's number is 5628 on the cab sides and the front and rear lighted number boards. I am sure it has not been tanpered with to change the numbers,its' all original. Aren't all centurys 4301?. Any info would be appreciated!
Alco Fan
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Posted - August 03 2006 : 11:48:31 PM
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AlcoFan:
The cross-numbered 430 in PC is a left-over from the so-called "transitional Red Box" period of roughly '69 to '71. The number is borrowed, obviously, from the GP-20's 5628 which (like 4301 on the Alcos) was the number assigned to the original demonstrator making the rounds for EMD. There are a number of "flukey" variations in paint and numbering during those years. I suspect the 430 in GN Big Sky paint dates from that period, though it is only speculation. Most often encountered "cross-numbering" is probably the Canadian National EMD-F numbered as "5628" rather than the original Mantua/Tyco assigned "6536." This strategy may have been just a simple means to get more mileage out of the very limited variety of numberboards. And Tyco may not have been alone in this behavior: it has been speculated that Athearn inverted numbers on its FM Trainmaster in Milwaukee livery (different on each respective side of the loco) to allow passing AA lash-ups to not appear with the same number, though this has not been confirmed.
In any event, the cross-numbered PC Alco 430 is a pretty uncommon animal. I can't tell you the stock number, though I suspect it's the same as its 4301-compatriot. My sample, alas, is in a un-numbered red box. Which leads to another problem with stuff from the era of transition from red to brown box. There are many items from this period whose boxes bear no stock number. I have some weird items with hand-pencilled stock numbers.
In the end, its the variations and "mysteries" that keep us interested, I guess.
Hope this has been useful info.
MagAcademy
ps: While it crosses my mind, did anyone notice the eBay auction within the last week or two of what appeared to be a brown box Tyco standard 40 ft. box car in GN Big Sky rather than the typical old red or earlier, more scarce, GN yellow? I inquired of the seller whether the item was original or (as is more likely the case) GN Big Sky from another maker in a Tyco box but received no answer. I have the Athearn sky blue box car variants so know what they look like and the so-called Tyco didn't seen to be one of them, but the photo in the ad offered an insufficient look to confirm absolutely this car's identity (the photo showed only as seen through the cellophane, in the box). Another mystery, maybe.
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Posted - August 04 2006 : 12:51:49 AM
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quote:Hey,
Here's another example of the "couldn't get it right BN" painting in HO-Scale...AHM's 1970s Roco-produced Alco Century 424...
/tyco/forum/uploaded/Tony Cook/ahm_century_424_burlington_northern.jpg
Kinda favors the pre-merger green with with stripes that Burlington had on a few locos prior to the official introduction of the BN in March 1970...
/tyco/forum/uploaded/Tony Cook/6469.JPG
Don't forget in the BN attempts there is the great PEMCO F40PH dressed for BN service...
/tyco/forum/uploaded/Tony Cook/pemco_f40ph_catalog.jpg
And Yes, my example does feature a reversed BN herald. [:o] [Oops!]
That BN SD-45 pic is from a great site that features tons of shots of Burlington Northern locos...
http://www.trainpix.com/BN/ROSTER.HTM
You can see more PEMCO trains at my site...
http://tycotrain.tripod.com/pemcorailwaysystem/id21.html
And the BN Century 424 is found on my AHM site...
http://tycotrain.tripod.com/ahmhoscaletrainscollectorsresource/
Originally posted by Tony Cook - July 30 2006 : 5:34:23 PM
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I've always wanted to see that green and white BN loco.
Also, how did that logo get put on backwards
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Posted - August 04 2006 : 08:16:39 AM
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MagAcademy,
Thank you for the fast info on the 5630 PC Alco Century. You have one also? I see there isn't one, or a 4301 PC,as an example on the alco century page. You are right about the things that keep us interested in Tyco.
I went to the train show at the Expo-mart in Pittsburgha few weeks ago, and there were few Tyco locos to be found and fewer that were worth having at the cost. Few parts also.
New question. Did some of the 4301s not have handrails originally? I have never seen a Silver Streak on the internet that had them applied or even mentioned them as part of a set. There might be other examples of this in catalogues. Thanks!
Alco Fan
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Posted - August 04 2006 : 09:59:45 AM
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Alco Fan:
Yes, I have one of the 5628 numbered 430s in what was, perhaps, the original red box. I could not verify that with any certainty as it had changed hands a few times since original purchase and the box, as reported earlier, was undesignated. I reported this to moderator Tony Cook in 2005 and promised him a pic but just plain forgot and never have spent the time to figure out how to post pix to this site (I'm an old Speed Graphic/Kodak kinda guy and these bitzn'bytes confound and irritate me). As I recall, my other boxed PC 430 is a garden-variety model but--as is often the case with early 70's Tycos--was also in a box that bore no stock number. Tyco/Mantua's PC offerings are pretty interesting and contain a lot of anomalies like the cross-numbering: F-series diesel as "9769" or (rare) "9451"; the streamlined observation cars are "6531", "6500" (usually, however, on the coaches), or "6504" (usually on the combine)--I have examples of all three.
I can't speak for later 430s (I suppose the ConFoods/Tyco years) packed without handrail sets--I just don't have much experience with them. As far as I know every earlier Mantua/Tyco 430 came with the standard blue-carded handrail set.
Again, I hope this answers some questions.
By the way, I'm an Alco fan myself. I've always been fond of the old
offerings by Hobbytown of Boston and the crude, but charming, Hobbyline FAs. I think I have Lindsay and Hobbytown FAs and PAs you could pull stumps out of the ground with, even after nearly fifty years.
Magnolia Academy
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Posted - August 04 2006 : 11:56:40 AM
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Mag Academy,
I guess when I say Alco Fan I'm talking mostly about the 4301s for centimential reasons, because of that Santa Fe 4301 given to me at Christmas. Today when I run it ,it has this kind of slow speed growl that I like. It is still one of my best runners. I bought another Santa Fe Alco on the internet and I like to double head a train with them. Alot of real hoggers loved them and prefer them in short line service according to a Trains article of about last year. The old Tyco drive is reliable, I bought a wrecked F-7 Santa Fe at a Train show recently. I brought it home cleaned it and oiled it and it took right off but the light burned out recently. I bought it to tear it apart to see better how to maintain the others.
Alco Fan
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Posted - August 04 2006 : 12:24:31 PM
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| Oh yeah, Alco Fan, just so you know there are still Alco's in regular use here "Down Under"
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Posted - August 04 2006 : 1:14:46 PM
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AlcoFan:
Like DL-701s myself for "modern" Alcos. Growing up in central Wisconsin we saw a lot of Alco action on Green Bay Western trackage. If you like the old Tyco/Mantua 430 growlers keep your eyes open for the original Mantua/Tyco 430 kits in their lidded boxes: K235A (CBQ), K235B (NH), K235C (SF). The fit, finish and quality control of these early 430s is exceptional (and I think the NH and Burlington paint schemes are terrific. Not to demean the SF, though, its just so much more common.)
MagAc
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Posted - August 04 2006 : 1:33:29 PM
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I've always loved Alcos ever since a double-head set of the Belt Railway Co. of Chicago's famous C424s threatened to set the right-of-way on fire as it passed by, spitting oil and embers and who knows what else! They were crawling with a slow drag and the brakeman was keeping pace, stoming out little brush fires behind them. Must have been having an "off day".
I grew up a stone's throw from the BRC's Clearing hump hard and got to know and love that wonderful lugging sound of the 424's and their orphan S3. I was so sad when they finally left in 1999.
Oh and hey I kind of like that AHM BN C424. But I still wonder why a simple scheme like BN was so fouled up by everyone...
Edited by - GoingInCirclez on August 04 2006 1:35:05 PM
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Posted - August 04 2006 : 6:05:52 PM
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Alexander13,
I didn't know that Alcos were still running down under and I didn't realize that you were from down under. Are they American prototypes? Are they Centurys?
Thanks!
Alco Fan
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Posted - August 04 2006 : 6:11:36 PM
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No, there somewhat different, Technically there not ALCo's, they were sent to Australia in kit form and Assembled locally.
I'll do a bit more research on the topic and see what i come up with
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Posted - August 04 2006 : 6:15:46 PM
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GoinginCircles,
I think the Trains article mentioned a story similar to yours. Sounds like the Centurys had character. I like the Pennsy SW1200s (Athearn ) because they were used to do switching on a small siding behind my Grandmothers house in the mid'60s.
Alco Fan
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Posted - August 05 2006 : 05:42:13 AM
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Yep, i've done som,e researach at "Locopage" (there isnt a single loco IN MY WHOLE COUNTRY that isnt listed, except for steam
http://locopage.railpage.org.au/sra/45.html A few 45's remain in service, on private lines
http://locopage.railpage.org.au/sra/48.html Lots of these remain in service today
http://locopage.railpage.org.au/sra/442.html These have ALCO engines in them. They were also built after 1969. go figure. A few remain in service
http://locopage.railpage.org.au/sra/43.html 43 Class. None remain in service, one is Preserved in operable condition
http://locopage.railpage.org.au/sra/44.html A few 44's remain in service. Not many tho
This is just a quick overview of ALCOS in Australia, seecifically New South Wales
Oh yeah, BTW "Great Northern" doesnt mean what you would think Great Northern is.
Edited by - alexander13 on August 05 2006 05:43:49 AM
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Posted - August 06 2006 : 2:05:26 PM
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Penn Central Alco,
I would like to see a photo of one of these 4301 PC Alcos on the Alco page if anyone can send one.
Thanks.
Alco Fan
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Posted - August 08 2006 : 06:44:50 AM
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5628 Alco Century,
Here is a loco that may be interesting to . 
Alco Fan
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Posted - August 08 2006 : 07:23:51 AM
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5628 Mantua Penn Central Century
The photo I posted is the one from the auction. It is much less dusty now and runs good although jerky at slow end of the throttle. It also has the rear engineer-side steps and part of the plow missing, I'll try to restore this. I had to epoxy 2 kadee coupler boxes and couplers on each truck since the surviving coupler broke off in shipping, this has worked well in other fixes. No horns but all truck sideframes are there and solid. I still think it's an interesting piece although not mint.
Thanks.
Alco Fan
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Posted - August 08 2006 : 10:31:12 AM
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AlcoFan:
Your 5628 numbered 430 Century is consistent with the couple of others I've seen. They all seem to share the white-painted 5628 under the cab instead of the red (matching the large PC logo aft) 4301 on the more common 430 in PC. In terms of production numbers, actually, the PC livery is rather less common than some of the other 430s.
MagAc
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Posted - August 08 2006 : 10:41:50 AM
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MagAc
I have only seen probably 10 or less of these in PC on the auction site and only one 5638 PC in the last year that I started to collect the 4301 Centurys. I think I missed a nice one about the time I was waiting for this to arrive it had it's handrails too.
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Posted - August 08 2006 : 11:08:52 AM
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AlcoFan:
As previously stated, the PC 430s aint' common. Actually, with the exception of the Santa Fe livery, any red-box 430 (with the Mantua power trucks) is less common than certain garden-variety power torque models (RI and Chessie immediately spring to mind--I think you could pave driveways with the darned things, they're so prolific). The CNs are tough to find here (though they, too, had the benefit of being placed in Tyco CN train sets and--perhaps--they're more common in Canada.) Of the initial series the New Haven models seem to be hardest to find and, consequently, fetch the most money. This also may be due to their great paint and high level of finish as alluded to in an earlier mail. In any event, finding the 430s is a fun pursuit. I'm sure we're all looking, now, for another of the elusive Great Northerns, as found by GoinginCirclez, that prompted all this forum attention.
MagnoliaAcademy
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Posted - August 08 2006 : 1:20:33 PM
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You are right,
I am hoping to find something Tyco that's rare and at a good if not rdiculously cheap price. I'm also looking for parts in case something breaks or wears out. Also I look forard to the enjoyment of talking to others who are also interested in Tyco trains and others
Have fun!
Alco Fan
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Posted - August 09 2006 : 11:10:59 AM
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AlcoFan:
I'm compelled to reply to your comment about getting Tyco at "good, if not ridiculously low prices." I guess we're living in the right age, then. A Rock Island 430 set, in master box with inserts and paperwork didn't even fetch $13 yesterday on eBay. I'm continually amazed at the trend in which Tyco and, to a slightly lesser extent, other older--often American-made--HO scale trains don't even realize their original asking price in on-line or real-time auctions. This is a repetition of the situation Lionel and Flyer collectors found themselves in 40 years ago: tinplate O and S guage trains were going begging, sold in bulk for often pennies on the dollar. My advice is take advantage of the current "doldrums" in HO "tinplate" collecting right now. It's only a matter of time...
MagAc
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Posted - August 10 2006 : 12:47:26 PM
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quote:My advice is take advantage of the current "doldrums" in HO "tinplate" collecting right now. It's only a matter of time...
MagAc
Originally posted by MagnoliaAcademy - August 09 2006 : 4:10:59 PM
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With all do respect, I would hope that you're right (wouldn't we all?) but I really do have to wonder:
Part of the reason that the older Lionel, et al stuff is so "collectible" (gah I hate the way that term is used; you can COLLECT _anything_, what people always hope for is to INVEST... but I digress), is because it harkens to a day when there was a true, frontier mystique about model / toy trains, and electricity, and expensive toys with motors. And a today they're held high as examples of American might and being near indestructible and made of metal. They were popular through the 60's and millions of today'ss elders with money to burn have few second thoughs about pursuing these rugged, reliable, anachronistic workhorses of thier childhood.
But will the era of cheap throwaway plastic RTR, which is all that HO ever was, amount to that? The model RR hobby is stagnant to declining, and I doubt once a certain generation passes on for good that we'll ever see the same outrageous prices throughout. Sure, the old stuff, the original stuff, the rare stuff will always be that way, just as it is now. But in general I just can't see people going pursuing their HO sets as they do Lionel and AF. They always had the high-end, newfangled mystique about them and lasted forever (and the plastic junk from the 70's and 80's doesn't count). You got a mass-produced Tyco / LL / Bachmann set at the supermarket and it broke after a few weeks - hardly the way memories are made.
Anyway, I hope I'm wrong (fortunately I've been before ) but I don't think HO will ever be the general goldmine in the way that Lionel is (often mistakenly) considered to be. [B)]
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Posted - August 10 2006 : 2:00:58 PM
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AlcoFan:
"...cheap throwaway plastic RTR, which is all that HO ever was..."
Wow! I wonder that you bothered to preface your thoughts "with respect" to my opinion on the state of HO collecting.
I'm in absolute agreement with your thoughts on the rationale behind collecting. Anyone dumb enough to accumulate toy trains as an "investment" can probably likewise be sold bargain-priced residential lots around Three Mile Island and convinced to squander their life savings on my neighbor's perpetual motion machine. Better to collect because you admire the stuff. However, I beg to differ with the general tenor of your reasoning.
Gordon Varney, Irv Athearn and John Tyler and their American brethren were probably spinning in their graves when you diminished the status of their pioneer efforts to "cheap throway plastic." I dare say, also, I've never heard of the HO trains of Fleischmann or Marklin or any of their European compatriots referred to as "throwaway."
I'll bet, my friend, you aren't old enough to remember when Varney, Penn Line, HobbyLine, Athearn, Herkimer, Tyco, even Louis Marx and others put out lines of "precision engineered" HO trains and train sets built for "a lifetime of service" (to borrow some of their own advertising.)
Next time you attend a train show try to get your hands on one of the old "Toy Trains" magazines annual Train Set Guides (always issued for December release from 1955 thru 1964.) You might be surprised at what you find.
My general point about collecting these old made-in-USA offerings now can be best illustrated by last week's ebay offering of a Tyco T-6314 "Mammoth of the Rails" set (1963-4): diecast Mikado, lighted caboose, derrick car, floodlight car, animated box car, operating hopper and so on. The set cost $49.95 in 1964. Lacking only the master box and some of the inserts the set brought a mere $18.37 when the auction ended.
If no one else sees the wisdom in gathering up these old made-in-America classics, well, so be it. Sure, the hobby of model railroading is "in decline" as the "train generation" dies off. Sure, Lionel and MTH prices in the 80's and 90's were fueled often by retirees with thick wallets and bad cases of nostalgia. in the end all I can say is this: Lionel and Flyer HO already fetches a premium in the marketplace. The same Varney "Super" Pacific that languished on dealer's shelves for $50 in 1985 now flies off for $200. Prewar Mantua Atlantics, even once-lowly 0-4-0 camelbacks and first generation Pacifics and Mikados are now eagerly sought. That all seems like a prescription for, to borrow that dirty word, "collect" American-made HO while much of it is still inexpensive and unrecognized.
Good hunting!
MagAc
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Posted - August 10 2006 : 2:18:58 PM
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Magnolia,
Wow, I didn't mean to touch a nerve. Allow me to clarify my position (as it was nime and not AlcoFan's):
I don't, personally, disregard all HO as "cheap throwaway plastic". Otherwise, I wouldn't be in HO. Otherwise, I wouldn't be the kind of guy who retrofits Tyco Sharks and installs cameras in LL GP38s and has a few old Bachmann and Varney cars his operating fleet.
I've seen the old wood and metal and Athearn Blackbox and other early plastic HO kits. They all have their place, and I cherish and enjoy them for what they are.
Unfortunately, I think I'm in the minority.
I personally couldn't care less about most large-scale Lionel. But I won;t deny that there is something very visceral about those huge, heavy, beastly toys that tugs at me when I come across one. In the context of time and when they were made, they ARE the superior element. Consider that they're often just as crude (if not more so) than HO stuff from the same era, yet they are still what everyone goes after.
I mean no disrespect to you or the likes of the great pioneers in HO. But think about my off-handed remark: You go to a store today, and you can get a "decent" HO set for about $75-100. You want the Big Stuff, you can triple the price for the low-end. Now tell me what would be considered the "cheap plastic throwaway" of the two? 30, 40, 50 years ago if people couldn't afford the price of a high-quality Lionel set, they got the cheaper plastic HO set. And when it broke, they likely did just that: threw it away. I remember all the garage sales when I was a kid. I remember most all my friends had a Tyco or equivalent set back in the day, and I can assure you none of them miss those sets today.
You are right in that I (and my generation) am not old enough to remember the heydays of Mantua, Varney, Globe, Athearn Yellow, etc. I can and do appreciate them though. There's some pioneering value there. But they were considered second-class to Lionel O back then. I recall going to the library as a kid and checking out books detailing the skyrocketing values of Lionel O's that were barely 20 let alone 30 years old even then... but I can tell you that, with exceptions, the 70's and 80's did NOTHING for HO in general.
Anyway, it's all just my opinion and as I conceeded, I hope I'm proven wrong... I meant no disrespect. (otherwise I wouldn't be on a TYCO forum of all places!)
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Posted - August 10 2006 : 4:42:41 PM
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CiCz:
(with most humble and sincere apologies to AlcoFan)
There is a great vignette in one of the McComas Lionel/Flyer train videos where a Flyer buff recalls a funny, telling story of the real status of Lionel and Flyer in the late fifties, when they were already losing market share and experiencing sales doldrums. This youngster and his brother brought their entire collection of American Flyer trains (stored in milk crates) to Gardner's "The Train Doctors", Train store so see what they could get in trade for HO. They received, as the old gentleman in the video lamented, an HO GP-9 (I suppose a rubber-band Athearn) in trade.
As for the principle merit of old HO being its "pioneer" status I note that Athearn's old Globe-pattern EMD-F has survived with little change for over fifty years in the marketplace. Furthermore, I suspect most forty-year old Pittmann-motored Hobbylines will run rings around most of today's HO offerings and, as for those old Penn Line and Varney Steam engines: while their rivet-detail is pretty sad by "modern" standard, their available piping, backhead detail and--in particular--range of options and degree of detail in valve gear have only been met by some of the Japanese and Korean brass. An examination of 1940s Central Valley and Varney parts catalogs can be a real eye opener and is probably why Varney Yellowstones fetch upwards of $500, Berkshires, Super Consolidations and Super Pacifics $250-plus.
Sadly, the Consolidated Foods/Tyco was "back in the day" in a different day. It was the sad era of decline and eventual collapse and--as you'll no doubt be surprised--it was my era. I'm in my forties and the brown box sets were the stuff of my compatriot's youth. Fortunately, I was more interested in swapping cards from my massive baseball card collection for their fathers' and grandfathers' pre-war Lionel, Flyer, Dorfan and Ives. Unfortunately, it all went by the wayside to help pay for college.
I stand by my earlier recommendation, though. Check out one of those early 60's Toy Trains Annuals; really take a close look at--for example--a pristine Tyco T-7 set with Pacific and extruded aluminum passenger cars, then tell me Lionel was the benchmark of that era.
MagAc
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Posted - August 12 2006 : 11:28:37 AM
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MagAc,
I'll definitely keep on the lookout for one of those guides. Certainly when I stated there are "exceptions" in HO, it's those types of things I was referring to.... I'm aware they're out there, but admittedly don't know all there is to about them.
It seems that "value" associated with any product line has a lot to do with how well catalogued it is. Lionel HO stuff in the 70's was no better and often no rarer than Bachmann, yet becuase books have been written about it and catalogues constructed, they seem to fetch more value.
I think Tony's site is a step in the direction toward getting the information out there to create interest and respect for Tyco and others. Whether they kindled enough memories and interest for new generation of people to pursue en masse remains to be seen.
And yes, I know there is a lot of Vintage HO that still holds a flag high today. I guess my trouble is articulating the difference that seems to exist. There is certainly much to be said for a loco that offers excellent fidelity for $30, as opposed to the new stuf of ridiculous detail for $120 and up...
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Posted - August 12 2006 : 6:35:53 PM
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CiCz:
I understand your comments on the relative "merit" of Lionel HO (from the 70's, I guess) versus Bachmann to stem from the cataloging of Lionel, which I take you to mean identification by price guide and other print and on-line info Lionel enjoys.
All I can say is that probably further cements my point about the present being the time to gather-up old--principly American-made--HO trains.
The absence of basic print attention, "price guides" and comparable "blue books" for HO makers other than Varney, Flyer, Athearn and Lionel (cum-Athearn, Rivarossi, English and other contractors) make for fertile picking of pretty spectacular offerings. Sure--often because of their OBVIOUS high-quality--Penn Line trains gather attention, but still not on a par with their intrinsic merit. Hobbyline is starting to enjoy a bit of attention, but hardly enough considering they're the grandaddy's of RTR HO in the USA. Actively-engaged model railroaders still seek old Mantua, Howell/Redball, Hobbytown and other American makers for their their fine running characteristics and amenability to modification, but who has written the guide on sets offfered by American Model Trains, or Herkimer OK or Globe or Tru-Scale or even Revell or (obviously) Tyco from the dawn of the HO Train Set age (1955) 'til 1970, by which time most of these American HO makers had gone under or palletized their machinery and shipped manufacturing overseas, ALWAYS, it seems, at the expense of product quality?
What I find most entertaining about the old wine in new wineskins nature of the foreign-made product is how much of it is derived from old (sometimes ancient) American designed and made tooling: Aurora's buildings become Tyco Hong Kong's lighted building series, Revell's freight station becomes Tyco's Hong Kong offering. The introductory material on the E-series Tyco diesels in the Tyco Brown Box website speculates the shell is perhaps derived from the old Hobbytown patterns. Model Railroader reviewed some foreign maker's SW-1500 offering (in the last two years and, unfortunately, don't recall the maker though it is a "top-end" manufacturer) and revealed it was modified from tooling from the Revell shell from 1956. I'll bet you can think of examples as well.
So, considering how much unsung old stuff is out there, I'll just keep "buying American."
Doing my bit for the trade deficit,
Magnolia Academy
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Event: Great Northern Big Sky Blue Century 430
