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 Posted - July 24 2013 : 08:25:35 AM
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we were all told that due to rising cost,companies all over the world shifted to china,to keep costs down?so what happened,would just hate to think what price they would be if they had continued to make in there old bases,just had a look at a few and i am gob smacked,plastic at brass prices,anyway that said,i have been making a model of a s100 us transportation loco,and guess what,rivarossi are about to release or have released a s100,but the price is high,rough check $200/250
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Posted - July 24 2013 : 08:32:12 AM
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| I know i the O scale world, things are getting harder to get because the factories in China aren't producing. Everything from worker strikes to natural disasters is delaying production. An O scale Plasticville coal tower were going for $30 from some dealers, and they usually cost $12 to $15. Everyone is saying they'll get their products by late summer early fall.
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Posted - July 24 2013 : 11:40:38 AM
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I get the sense that it's not just production factors. I think also it is a matter of what the market will bear.
I'm always amazed when I visit some local clubs and there are 50 car strings of $15-$25 tank cars being pulled by 5 sound equipped SD70s ($200 each?) Granted they are a club, but there seem to be collectors out there with serious money on their hands.
I'm sure that the Riva s100 will find plenty of buyers, especially since it saw use in so many countries. They are popular here in the US as tourist engines. So even at $250 there will be buyers. 
-Thomas
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Posted - July 24 2013 : 12:17:36 PM
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| Crazy price for a tank engine. I wanted to get one but I'll wait until someone drops theirs and ebays it for cheap. Everyone drops a rivarossi once, that's why there are so many broken ones on ebay.
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Posted - July 24 2013 : 1:11:10 PM
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I still have my eye on that beaut of a tanker. If it gets down to $180 I'll take one 
I buy, repair, and collect
http://scvr.weebly.com/
http://seyboldlocomotiveworks.weebly.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheDeputation?feature=watch
Hyde.
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Posted - July 24 2013 : 2:07:31 PM
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Speaking of the 0-6-0T US Transportation loco, I was reading an old Model Railroader and I noticed that Amro imported a version of it by Meccano in the early 1970s. Full valve gear too. Has anyone ever seen this model? It seems collectable. I have not been able to find it by googling or searching ebay.
-Thomas
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 Posted - July 24 2013 : 4:40:00 PM
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THIS is the reason I buy DC & USED trains, cars, buildings & accessories! 
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Posted - July 24 2013 : 5:06:42 PM
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hi thomas if i could have found one of these,i would snatch it up,but one or two in a couple of years,makes them very hard to get,ken
missed this one,£72
121102730169
lights not working,missing a few small bits and cab steps
Edited by - catfordken on July 24 2013 5:12:31 PM
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Posted - July 24 2013 : 10:42:45 PM
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China, if you have ready anything on it recently, has gone through some changes, the middle class has more money, they want higher wages, fuel costs have gone up, plus all the natural disasters as well. "Cheap" China labor may be a thing of the past, I have been reading about production coming back to the USA as it's gotten more expensive over their to produce things. My company is still having some electronic work done there, so far that industry hasn't gone up in price drastically, but I can see where others would. There are fewer and fewer cheap labor sources these days, Africa but their infrastructure is so poor, it'd cost way more to build it up than is profitable right now.
Jerry
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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Posted - July 24 2013 : 11:18:33 PM
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I do have to admit,that Rivarossi looks quite nice.
President of the Cape James Terminal RR.
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Posted - July 25 2013 : 01:32:22 AM
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haha!  we had them also! - Erich
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Posted - July 25 2013 : 03:21:44 AM
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Well this thread......calls for my 2 cents worth.....For a couple reasons!
One. is the fact, I'm sort of a Manufacturer, myself, IN my shop, you will find one employee, Myself! Now granted, I'm only one, these big companies that went to China for cost, is getting one thing, cheap hourly wages, and cost of materials....Sadly, we (yes, me too!) the consumer, doesn't see, this due to the following: The cost of import, government taxes) for whatever country, we're in....THEN, the wages, how many "employees" worked on that one item? TIMES, the amount of hours EACH one worked on it!
THEN, you have plastic loco's, what and how much "material" is in this one item? You got the Chinese "steel" (Plastic), and then some white metal, along with some nickel plating (EXPENSIVE), then Brass, in the bearings of the axles, and then the electrical, which in most cases were imported from Japan, to China for use in these items.....THAT along has another import tax, and the cost of each electrical component as well, and then the time it took to assemble it to work.....
SO, with these things said, and then the cost we pay, its not right, if the big companies are getting it cheaper in material cost and hourly wage. ALOT is demand..... "How much will we pay?" is what they say on the consumer personel of these big companies....
SO it comes down to this, we pay $XXX.XX can they get $ZZZ.ZZ will they try? DAMN RIGHT they will! Sadly, if we pay $ZZZ.ZZ ONCE, it will become that as their MSRP right then and their!
I, in my shop keep this in mind! if I can get product for say $30.00, I make about $8.00 pocket money, and that number is going down as the dealer price is going up the percentage made is getting less and less! BUT, these big companies, are getting bank, and mostly (I HATE TO SAY THIS) is because of US............the consumer! We need to set down and think of the cash we're "giving" away! YES, you read that correctly, I'm a businessman, ALONG with a collector and a consumer along with everyone of you! This is one reason I trade so much. As I know you all arte aware of.......Money is nice, if you can "sell" that item, if you "set" on that same item for any length of time, your loosing money......."storing" it!!!! Once you had it for say a month, then it turns around, you are then loosing money! SO, with those things I had at one time, listed and priced at the list cost the company listed to me, I sat on those items.....For a LONG time might I add, I cut the cost down to next to nothing, CENTS on the dollar......THEN to almost a free stance, I STILL had them, Sat on alot of them for 20 years! I found a few, interested, ask a price? Sure, I did, online, BUT the cost of shipping on the "lot" was way more then the person willing to pay was willing to pay to ship them.....
NOW? I had moved them from my shelves........ NO, I didn't toss them away, I had people, collectors, that were in need that never knew I had them, but I engaged in a trade, that moved just about that whole stock! Thousands of parts later, here I am, still. doing the same.
Sometimes, trades are better then you might think.....I trade for items, I have that others are in need of, for items, I have no interest at all, BUT, I know something that does, Sure, I make a few bucks at it, but nothing to make me a "big business" as the rest, but keeps YTR going....Even with the hard economy, and hard times, I'm not rich, never have been, never want to be.....Comes with another "set" of problems, really! But, "comfortable" would be nice some day!
NOW these guys you speak of, thats at these shows with big money in their fists, I question too....I'm lucky to have $100 in my pocket to spend and then to see some of these guys dropping $300 or more just tears me up........ I've had packed tables to sell for YTR, and I came out with $225.00 after costs of travel (not to bad 20 miles) and then the cost of tables....) THEN, to see the guy next to me have one or 2 loco's the same as I do at home to sell just one for $500 blows my mind, in the exact same shape! Take them the following weekend, to the show last year, with the price 50% off, and bring them back home? Just goes to show, depends on the area your in, and the day..... its always hit or miss!
Luck of the draw.....and as it is, its more difficult to make the choice, which to take and what to price things at just to move the product......For one guy, like YTR is alot of work, but then these bigger companies, have ALL those employees to pay, whether they sell one or 1 million items!
So as consumers, it comes down to this, whats a "real" price? OR whats a real price, your willing to pay that company for? Whats common sense, and whats not?
Interesting, isn't it?
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid... 
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - July 26 2013 : 01:51:09 AM
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Wait until the dollar collapses and you will be able to get a box of trains for a can of tuna.....
I really don't know how the brick and mortar trains shops can complete with Ebay and the internet now-a-days..... The profit margins have been reduced to nothing, especially with train shops blowing out their inventory when they are closing due to the poor economy and less people buying trains.....
Edited by - AF Kid on July 26 2013 02:07:51 AM
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Posted - September 11 2013 : 08:14:11 AM
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quote:we were all told that due to rising cost,companies all over the world shifted to china,to keep costs down?so what happened,would just hate to think what price they would be if they had continued to make in there old bases,just had a look at a few and i am gob smacked,plastic at brass prices,anyway that said,i have been making a model of a s100 us transportation loco,and guess what,rivarossi are about to release or have released a s100,but the price is high,rough check $200/250
Originally posted by catfordken - July 24 2013 : 08:25:35 AM
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Yep, the going rate on higher end (to me, anyway!) releases from Rivarossi/Athearn/et al is $200-$250. In fact the numbers are now fairly commonplace. All produced in China, you know, where the companies are keeping the costs down.
Even Bachmann has joined that club - and why not? People out there have money to burn - they must, cause otherwise how could it continue? I do have to give Bachmann some credit though, at least they offered a DD40 for under $100 - which is a right where the price needs to be, and it IS a good running loco. Does it have the detail of the Athearn model? Nooo...but does it need to? NO! But I digress.
The analogy comes to my mind with the cost of gasoline. Can you imagine, not so long ago, when $3/gallon gas was truly shocking? It was the end of the world! And yet...we have all been slowly conditioned to accept it, and now, we think we are on easy street when the price gets down CLOSE to $3! Now, before someone tries to explain to me all the vagaries of the petroleum market - don't bother. The point is, this is how the market as a whole operates. Forget the crying, whining and gnashing of teeth - are people buying the product? If so, then the price is about right. Right?
http://tycodepot.com/
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Posted - September 11 2013 : 11:02:01 AM
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China
I would like to make two points.
1. The dollar is not worth what it use to be.
A. My first new ford cost $2,850.00
B. My last new Ford cost $29,500.00
2. The advantages to manufacturing in China have changed
A. The costs of labor and production have increased.
B. the quality of product and availability of parts have dropped.
United States
I would like to make two points
1. We could compete with the Chinese
A. Innovation and flexibility would be required.
B. The rising costs in China will make this more likely
2. We need to build affordable models to keep the hobby alive.
A. We will run out of low cost models and parts for younger modelers
B. The Chinese manufacturing model will not provide stability in the hobby
LEGO builds all of their parts in the United States. They are successful and sell all over the world.
Regards, John ********************
Only government can take perfectly good paper, cover it with perfectly good ink and make the combination worthless. <> Milton Friedman
Edited by - JRG1951 on September 11 2013 11:02:40 AM
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Posted - September 11 2013 : 11:16:48 AM
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| hi john you are right there,over a 5th of us businesses in the us,are thinking or have moved back to states,as about the same here are doing,even a Chinese company has moved some of its production to usa,Lenova,we shall have to wait to see if it becomes reality,and how the money market goes ken
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Posted - September 11 2013 : 11:33:17 AM
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Kenneth,
It was announced that Motorola will be building cell phones in Dallas. We can do it. Just takes intestinal fortitude.
Regards, John ******************************************
My father was not a failure. After all, he was the father of a president of the United States.
Harry S. Truman
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babuff
Little Six
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Posted - September 11 2013 : 11:54:52 AM
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It may seem like something new here but it's not. Rivorrsi was always higher in price for plastic because of the detailing at the time (about a third of the cost of brass) by the 60's compitition from cheaper priced trains began to hurt business. serious competitors like model power,life like and yes even tyco. this price/detail problem plus quality issues led to their retirement from the U.S. they became a vicim of an age old feature of this hobby (we are cheap S.O.B's who want a quality product WE can work on) be it O scale lionel vs max grey in the 40's or O scale vs HO scale of the 50's or HO plastc vs brass from japan in the 60's and so on till today. todays $400 wonders come with just about every bell and whisle (pardon the pun) imaginable, till there is nothing for us to tinker with.
that is the demand side. now for the supply side. back in the early 50's when I was a child (groan!!) gas stations gave away things like glassware ect with a fill up of gas ( too much supply and low post war demand). One of the things they gave away were transistor radios made in Japan. you would be lucky if they lasted a month before breaking down. Electronics Made in Japan be came a national joke ( and we are not even going to consider cars) Yet major U.S corporations packed up and moved there because of cheap labor and no unions. Is anyone laughing at Japanese electronics today or their price?
A funny thing has happened over my lifetime. as products became beter and better they began to need a more higly skilled and educated workforce, who in turn had higher expectations of a better standard of living and demanded and got more pay. companies sply passed the added cost on to the consumer with a take it or leave it attitude up to the point where they knew the market would not bear it any more. after that they simply moved operations,first to Tiwain then Korea then indonesia and finally China. And you know what? The same thing that happened 50 yrs. ago in Japan is happening today. Where next? Africa?
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babuff
Little Six
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Posted - September 11 2013 : 12:12:37 PM
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It may seem like something new here but it's not. Rivorrsi was always higher in price for plastic because of the detailing at the time (about a third of the cost of brass) by the 60's compitition from cheaper priced trains began to hurt business. serious competitors like model power,life like and yes even tyco. this price/detail problem plus quality issues led to their retirement from the U.S. they became a vicim of an age old feature of this hobby (we are cheap S.O.B's who want a quality product WE can work on) be it O scale lionel vs max grey in the 40's or O scale vs HO scale of the 50's or HO plastc vs brass from japan in the 60's and so on till today. todays $400 wonders come with just about every bell and whisle (pardon the pun) imaginable, till there is nothing for us to tinker with.
that is the demand side. now for the supply side. back in the early 50's when I was a child (groan!!) gas stations gave away things like glassware ect with a fill up of gas ( too much supply and low post war demand). One of the things they gave away were transistor radios made in Japan. you would be lucky if they lasted a month before breaking down. Electronics Made in Japan be came a national joke ( and we are not even going to consider cars) Yet major U.S corporations packed up and moved there because of cheap labor and no unions. Is anyone laughing at Japanese electronics today or their price?
A funny thing has happened over my lifetime. as products became beter and better they began to need a more higly skilled and educated workforce, who in turn had higher expectations of a better standard of living and demanded and got more pay. companies sply passed the added cost on to the consumer with a take it or leave it attitude up to the point where they knew the market would not bear it any more. after that they simply moved operations,first to Tiwain then Korea then indonesia and finally China. And you know what? The same thing that happened 50 yrs. ago in Japan is happening today. Where next? Africa?
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Posted - September 11 2013 : 1:23:57 PM
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India. Someday it may be the United States
Regards, John ******
Not to decide is to decide!!!
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Posted - September 11 2013 : 1:31:20 PM
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All good points. The pendulum has definitely swung over the past few years to China production and premium RTR product. There were reasons for both, but there are also reasons to kick the pendulum back the other way.
Probably my most treasured image from years ago are the stacks of BB kits at the LHS. What wonders did they hold? Would I ever be 'modeler enough' to build them? It fired the imagination, and I'm afraid there's not much imagination firing and individual creativity going on now with new hobbyists. Yes I KNOW there are exceptions and rationale for that to be...the world does constantly change, after all.
There was also posed the question on another site regarding the growing pre-order policy on new product - do you do it? why...or why not? My answer was, NO, I do not do it, especially when the prices are in the $200+ range for locos. Why on earth would I want to pre-order and guarantee that I will pay premium price I can't afford when it (maybe) gets delivered?
http://tycodepot.com/
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Posted - September 11 2013 : 1:57:38 PM
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| just imagine if athearn were to return to the kits,along with others,people do not want only rtr,there are those who get pleasure from making there own,first would corner the market,what do you think,ken
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Posted - September 11 2013 : 3:28:54 PM
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quote:just imagine if athearn were to return to the kits,along with others,people do not want only rtr,there are those who get pleasure from making there own,first would corner the market,what do you think,ken
Originally posted by catfordken - September 11 2013 : 1:57:38 PM
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I think if Athearn did it, and priced them right - it could be very profitable for them. Can you see the announcement? "Blue Box kits are back!!" Although I wouldn't be surprised if they followed that up with a "pre-order yours today!"  Not only that, but I think it would give a shot in the arm to the other hobby suppliers like paint, decals, wheels, etc.
I do firmly believe there is a solid niche for this aspect of the hobby. Let's face it, I cannot deny the thrill of buying a brand-new multi-$100's dollar loco that is detailed to infinity. What's not to like? But a few weeks or months later...it's just another loco that you bought, as opposed to the prized ones you actually modeled yourself.
Again - don't flame me if you are one who has zero interest in modeling - I get that and it's your thing. Just as I have zero interest in DCC. We all have our areas of interest, just trying to explain my perspective.
http://tycodepot.com/
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Posted - September 11 2013 : 3:58:12 PM
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| hi JNXT 7707,i am with you regards dcc,i am old hat,just love to buy,get em running,by whatever means,and painting and detailing em where possible,ken
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Posted - September 11 2013 : 5:22:34 PM
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" what the market will bear" I believe also holds true for the swap meets where I do most of my model buying these days. The prices on NIB stuff is parallel to what is asked for on EBAY. Sure, you might not pay shipping( although you may have driven back and forth for 2 gallons worth of gas (call it shipping, as well); you might get a reduced price on a multi-engine or multi- car purchase (also available on EBay), but generally, you really have to look hard to find a valuable bargain that beats the Internet market. However, I overheard two interesting things at a recent swap meet last weekend- first, one vendor was telling another that he might not open up the next day (Sunday - it was a 2 day event) due to the lack of sales. Another vendor was remarking about how he only made $180 at a two day Great American Train Show swap meet held in Tampa in mid-August a month prior, and that he barely made enough to clear the table charge (vendor fee).
I see used engines that were going for $20 to $35 a year ago, now priced at over $50- they aren't any newer, many are offered over and over again, and I know I have seen them before at a past event.
One wonders if the market is a reaching a point of resistance, given the lack of enthusiasm I saw at this recent swap meet.
Siouxlake Ron
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Posted - September 11 2013 : 5:48:48 PM
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I have no problem reselling Athearn and other brand kits in the $5-$15 range at shows. I even sell some at the summer swap meets.
What is unusual is the buyers on the even lower end Tyco have slowed way down. I'm not sure why. Usually I can sell those 4 for $10 no box and $4 or 3 for $10 boxed (rare cars priced higher).
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Posted - September 11 2013 : 7:29:19 PM
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I know at many of the train shows on my regular schedule, I see the same vendors...and the same locomotives and rolling stock, like old friends! Evidently priced too high for the market, but they doggedly keep at it. There are some vendors who are ready to deal with you, and I don't expect anyone to give me freebies...but yes I have noted that prices are trending higher.
As for BB kits, it seems that vendors are trying to tout them as collector's items now, and upping the price respectively.
At the moment, I figure it's a deal if I can get a decent locomotive (BB) for under $30 at a train show, and I can live with that.
http://tycodepot.com/
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Posted - September 11 2013 : 8:00:33 PM
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| I don't even try to peddle the collector level stuff at shows very much. Maybe if I just got it. Usually that goes right to eBay and we see what happens there.
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Posted - September 11 2013 : 8:40:00 PM
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My favorite part at the train shows is the vendor with boxes of JUNK. Broken Lionel cabeese, rusty switches, gauges of track that you have no idea what train runs on it. It's THOSE tables that fire my imagination.
On a related note, what if we were to start a forum section called "trash to train" or "trash to treasure"? It would basically be a place to start all discussions about taking the cheapos (which is all that some of us can afford) and turning them into workable trains? I've got some New Bright and EZ-TEC mods I'd love to share.
I've found that the higher prices of model trains led me back to the fun of cheap toy trains. Nothing like building a DIY scenicked layout for trains that you detailed yourself, which most others would have thrown away.
My Youtube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/weekendrailroader?blend=1&ob=video-mustangbase
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Posted - September 11 2013 : 11:03:33 PM
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quote:...I've got some New Bright and EZ-TEC mods I'd love to share...
Originally posted by weekendrailroader - September 11 2013 : 8:40:00 PM
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Bring 'em on! There is a forum called "All the Others Not Mentioned." Sounds like the right place to me!
Personally, I love seeing where someone has taken a toy and created a believable model from it.
Glenn
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, "... I drank what?"
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Posted - September 12 2013 : 3:08:14 PM
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quote:My favorite part at the train shows is the vendor with boxes of JUNK. Broken Lionel cabeese, rusty switches, gauges of track that you have no idea what train runs on it. It's THOSE tables that fire my imagination.
On a related note, what if we were to start a forum section called "trash to train" or "trash to treasure"? It would basically be a place to start all discussions about taking the cheapos (which is all that some of us can afford) and turning them into workable trains? I've got some New Bright and EZ-TEC mods I'd love to share.
I've found that the higher prices of model trains led me back to the fun of cheap toy trains. Nothing like building a DIY scenicked layout for trains that you detailed yourself, which most others would have thrown away.
Originally posted by weekendrailroader - September 11 2013 : 8:40:00 PM
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Sounds great to me! And not only do you find hidden "junk" in those bins, but some real treasures as well. Last year I found 3 Lionel HO cars in near perfect shape - I think in the 3 for a dollar bin - that I used to fund some of my own projects.
http://tycodepot.com/
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Posted - September 12 2013 : 8:13:17 PM
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yeah I love getting "junk"
The reason is most are switching to DCC Yes its cool to start/stop the engine, honk the horn, ring the bell, etc etc BUT the price isn't worth it 
I STILL want DC stuffs anyway
To find these go look for DC at model train clubs & hobby stores
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Posted - September 18 2013 : 10:24:37 AM
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quote:Wait until the dollar collapses and you will be able to get a box of trains for a can of tuna.....
I really don't know how the brick and mortar trains shops can complete with Ebay and the internet now-a-days..... The profit margins have been reduced to nothing, especially with train shops blowing out their inventory when they are closing due to the poor economy and less people buying trains.....
Originally posted by AF Kid - July 26 2013 : 01:51:09 AM
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I think some of those people on Ebay think they are on a feeding frenzy, too. I watch for deals, but, if I wants it, I pays for it. I don't like it, but what else can we do?
RBNicholson
RBNicholson
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Posted - September 19 2013 : 1:57:02 PM
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| I stopped bringing the big junk boxes to shows. Everybody wants to dig through and give me a dollar for the five best things in the box. I want to get rid of the whole box for $10 or $20 depending on how big it is (you might get 40 or 50 shells for the $20).
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