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 Posted - April 29 2013 : 4:13:57 PM
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I finally scored on a Rivarossi drive Alco 630. Mine is in the Santa Fe version. The only other versions to have this drive were the Illinois Central and Delaware and Hudson 630. The approximate time frame for these were 1971-1972 and seem to have only been sold through Sears sets during this time. i got this for $14.00 shipped of evil bay - A DEAL! It runs great too - will post a video later -BT
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Posted - April 29 2013 : 4:46:59 PM
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Thanks for the detailed picture of the underframe. I have never seen one of these.
Randy
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Posted - April 29 2013 : 4:57:20 PM
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| Looking forward to seeing it running!
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Posted - April 29 2013 : 5:19:25 PM
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quote:Thanks for the detailed picture of the underframe. I have never seen one of these.
Originally posted by rbturner - April 29 2013 : 4:46:59 PM
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rbt - your welcome - I will be a doing a video on these soon - will post on here when done
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Posted - April 29 2013 : 5:31:30 PM
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HERES THE VIDEO OF TEST RUN ON BACHMANN NS EZ TRACK
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Posted - April 29 2013 : 6:30:24 PM
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neat runner
I has the same loco but it has directional lighting
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Posted - April 30 2013 : 08:32:53 AM
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quote:I finally scored on a Rivarossi drive Alco 630. Mine is in the Santa Fe version. The only other versions to have this drive were the Illinois Central and Delaware and Hudson 630. The approximate time frame for these were 1971-1972 and seem to have only been sold through Sears sets during this time. i got this for $14.00 shipped of evil bay - A DEAL! It runs great too - will post a video later -BT
Originally posted by Brianstyco - April 29 2013 : 4:13:57 PM
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Brian, I have a Chessie version of this too.
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Posted - May 08 2013 : 12:44:52 AM
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It runs very well for not having been serviced yet. It must have more pulling power than the PT versions with 8 wheel drive. Interesting that RR used lightbars to illuminate headlights at both ends just like the U25C.
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Posted - May 08 2013 : 06:00:18 AM
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NP - Yes -it runs well not to have been serviced or cleaned - would have been nice if Tyco would have stuck to this drive and chassis system - but then too - we wouldn't have all these creative ways of keeping our current Power Porkers running
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Posted - May 08 2013 : 12:37:28 PM
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quote: - would have been nice if Tyco would have stuck to this drive and chassis system -
Originally posted by Brianstyco - May 08 2013 : 06:00:18 AM
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And sideframes. 
I'd really like to hear one of these cleaned and lubed with a Rivarossi ball bearing motor from the U25C. If the gearing is quiet, it would just have a turbo whine from the motor.
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Posted - May 09 2013 : 5:26:10 PM
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BT,
That runs great and seems smoother than my Riv 630 Tycos. Great find.
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Posted - May 09 2013 : 8:42:47 PM
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AF, what's noisy on them?
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Posted - May 11 2013 : 10:37:47 PM
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quote:AF, what's noisy on them?
Originally posted by NickelPlate759Â -Â May 09 2013Â :Â 8:42:47 PM
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Nelson,
His sounds, to me at least, like a smooth running PT motor. Mine are in great condition and have good throttle response and pull well but are noisy. Maybe the motor is the problem?
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Posted - May 13 2013 : 11:13:40 PM
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The square bronze bearing motor was the noisiest Rivarossi ever made. The older ball bearing motor or newer round can would be quieter, and with the right screw holes tapped would be a drop-in fit.
I was curious how much of the noise, if any, came from the gearing or universals.
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Posted - July 03 2013 : 09:23:57 AM
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| I know I have heard guys talk about a Rivarossi 630 on this site before, but has anyone actualy see it or does anyone have it because I have never seen a pic of one and I am beginning to think they don't exist.
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Posted - July 03 2013 : 11:12:03 AM
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| GG1 - i have never seen a Rivarossi 630 either - i don't even know if they exist - i too would be interested in a picture of one - Brian
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Posted - July 03 2013 : 10:16:43 PM
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| I have one and posted a pic of the Rivarossi/Tyco 1102 here about 1-2 yrs ago.
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Posted - July 03 2013 : 10:42:24 PM
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| do it have Directional Lighting?
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Posted - July 04 2013 : 12:38:22 AM
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I'd like to see the same loco in Chessie with the Rivarossi drive....Question, I have never had one that's got a Rivarossi drive, how well or not well do these pull? IF they're anything like the steam counterpart I'd say these diesels should pull pretty well.
Whats your thoughts?
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - July 04 2013 : 03:43:32 AM
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quote:GG1 - i have never seen a Rivarossi 630 either - i don't even know if they exist - i too would be interested in a picture of one - Brian
Originally posted by Brianstyco - July 03 2013 : 11:12:03 AM
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Brian,
A video of one would be even rarer!
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Posted - July 04 2013 : 04:47:54 AM
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Nelson,
I'm not sure what your getting at here the fact that Rivarossi never made them as the 630, OR the fact he didn't add in "ALCO"?
You guys are to much!
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - July 04 2013 : 06:16:58 AM
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Rivarossi did make a 630... for Tyco. They never made one under their own name, of course. I assumed GG1 was asking the question without having read the thread.
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Posted - July 04 2013 : 07:11:31 AM
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quote:I have one and posted a pic of the Rivarossi/Tyco 1102 here about 1-2 yrs ago.
Originally posted by AF Kid - July 03 2013 : 10:16:43 PM
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We know that Tyco had a Rivarossi drive train and several have been posted including mine - GG1 question is - Did Rivarossi make their own 630 version -non Tyco
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Posted - July 04 2013 : 08:44:49 AM
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| Sorry guys for all the confusion. My question should have been in two parts, but my fingers must have hit something and deleted the rest of my question. First, did Rivarossi ever produce there own version of an Alco 630. Secondly, other members have said they seen a TYCO/Rivasossi Alco 630 in Hudson & Delaware and/or Chessie. We know they made them in Santa Fe and ICG road names, but I was wondering about the other two. I think on theis post two people mention they have seen or have a TYCO/Rivarossi D&H and a Chessie, DO THEY REALLY EXIST?
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Posted - July 04 2013 : 11:08:10 PM
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GG, I'm not the one to answer the roadname question, but I can say unequivocally that Rivarossi never produced a 630 of their own. That was strictly a Tyco partnership. I've seen drawings of everything they ever produced, including their European stuff, which is all available on Rivarossi Memory.
I think Tyco made a cheaper version of the RR U25C tank drive for the 630, and borrowed the U25C's sideframe and exhaust stack tooling. They also used the same (tho longer) light bars for the headlights & number boards at both ends.
I guess the real question is why Rivarossi didn't use this drive on their other diesels like the E8 and Krauss Maffei, both of which had only one powered truck.
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Posted - July 05 2013 : 02:43:14 AM
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Nelson your last comment I agree, if the C-630 was never produced under the RR name, why they didn't is beyond me, and why they used a completely different frame for the U25C and offer some other ALCO and even GE units is an un answered question!
BUT, didn't TYCO make the C-630 shell and Rivarossi made the frame to fit the shell? This would have been an agreement under their partnership, and I bet it could not have been breeched otherwise due to a contract between the 2 companies! Which would explain WHY RR didn't use the same frame under their renditions of a 3 axle unit, such as the E-8 and the Krauss Maffei diesels!
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - July 05 2013 : 03:08:20 AM
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John, totally agree with the first paragraph.
I had thought RR made the whole drive, but the plastics and blackened zamac scream Tyco production. Besides, the bottom of the unit says it was made in HK by Tyco, and Rivarossi never did any HK production. Allessandro Rossi considered it, but said he could never get the QC right.
Also, the U25C, E8 and KM were all tooled in the 60's, years before the 630 partnership. It's most likely that they found the U25C drive too costly. Athearn came up with their dual drive, but as my LHS owner told me Irv's primary business was manufacturing automotive parts, and his success there allowed him to undercut the competition by pricing the blue box stuff way below its market value for years.
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Posted - July 05 2013 : 04:48:52 AM
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Nelson,
That's all pretty interesting to say the least! I know of Irv, under cutting due to his other manufacturing business, BUT I didn't know what all RR did with the TYCO partnership.....I was under the impression that Rivarossi made and did the powered frame, or designed it for TYCO, as a sub-contracted part, to fit the TYCO C-630 shell......I am going off a hunch on this one as I have never had a chance to examine a TYCO-Rivarossi C-630 in hand.....
Easy way to notice what is what.....Look at that frame! You know how Rivarossi did the "grayish" frames on the trucks to the diesels, the trucks to the steamers, the driver centers, even the pilot and trailing truck wheel centers where the same plastic, any hint of that same plastic on the C-630 frame?
Just a thought! Was a Rivarossi trade mark for years!
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - July 05 2013 : 3:04:29 PM
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John, I think you're right that RR likely helped in the design phase, loaned certain tooling and provided their motors, while Tyco handled the actual manufacture of the drive under license (much like Mehano did for years with the C-Liner, although they made their own motors).
I've only seen photos of these units, but there is no sign of RR's trademark gray plastic, just Tyco's black styrene and Delrin.
Interesting thing about that gray plastic: if you look at it under magnification, you'll notice there are flecks of silver pigment mixed in with it to give it a more metallic appearance. I always thought that was unique, giving the plastic an illusion of more depth... for example, compare the Rivarossi GG1 sideframes to the later Mehano versions. Same basic tooling, but a huge difference in appearance. Without any weathering, the Mehano sideframes look plastic-y and flat next to the RR's.
Roco seems to have adopted gray plastic from Rivarossi, probably because they shared RR's couplers and freight trucks during the AHM years, but without the silver pigment. That remains a Rivarossi trademark. 
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Posted - July 05 2013 : 7:58:43 PM
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Nelson,
As I said, its all VERY interesting.....
I've ALWAYS liked the looks of that "grayish" metallic plastic Rivarossi used on the steamers, I'm almost partial to it, just because it is that unique! The only time, I have any problem with that plastic, is on what is to be black drivers, and have that as the centers! (I still hate to paint it but to be prototypical, I do!) Doesn't mean I wanna tho!
I tell ya, that same plastic and the color would be an awesome way to mold in smokebox graphite!
As for it tho, I think its a specific type of plastic found only over sea's....As if you noticed, its not on any other manufacturer products!
But I have to say, I've always been fond of it, the looks especially!
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - July 07 2013 : 9:53:13 PM
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| I believe I have this locomotive too, but I need a plastic truck frame (mine had the clip bust on it, but I have all the parts still!). Does anybody have an extra one of these truck frames lying around? I have a small ALCO fleet, and I'd really like to return this locomotive to service. - :(
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Posted - July 17 2013 : 09:08:49 AM
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This is what I was talking about the D & H Rivarossi drive C-630:
Edited by - GG-1 Guy on July 17 2013 09:09:34 AM
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 Posted - July 17 2013 : 12:51:28 PM
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I have both the Santa Fe and ICG versions, and a couple Rivarossi-AHM U25C's. A couple important points:
- The motor and drive system is very much a Rivarossi design, nearly identical to the RivAHM U25C.
- HOWEVER the trucks are NOT the same as the U25C. The Tyco TriMounts are slightly different in detail and length. They are also designed to provide a talgo coupler mount, as opposed the the U25C's pilot mount. Either way, you cannot simply swap them from one to the other.
- The Riva630's frame has similar characteristics to the U25C, but IIRC is slightly different. You can't just swap shells. Worth noting is that (again, IIRC) there are no "Tyco" origin marks on the frame itself. The only clue to the Rivarossi partnership is when you remove the shell and see the Rivarossi markings on the motor, and note the drivetrain design.
By which the sum design of the Tyco Alco 630 seems intended for this Rivarossi drive from the outset. With Rivarossi's large motor buried in the cab, it may even explain why Tyco chose the rare high-nose prototype to hide it. I also note the fidelity of the shell detailing and even its material seems heavily influenced by Rivarossi...
~~~~
With that said, what of Chessie and D&H versions in this tooling?
- Over 10 years ago, when Tyco was still a 4-letter afterthought to me, I found a Chessie 630 in a junk box. I recognized it as a Tyco, but the trucks and fuel tank looked funny to me. I had no concept of the Rivarossi version at the time, nor even much knowledge of Tri-Mount trucks and other Alco details. Yet I knew that this particular Chessie 630 did not seem quite like "all that other Tyco $#!^ I threw away in childhood..." but couldn't put my finger on it. Yet I distincly remember black trucks that looked more prototypical, and I wondered what the hump in the bottom of the fuel tank was for. So I almost bought it because of this BUT THE SHELL WAS MELTED ON THE TOP OF THE NOSE - and I did not own any other Tyco locos at the time - so I left it to languish in the junk box.
Now, not knowing the particulars, maybe it could have been a standard shell hack-swapped onto the other frame (which would be easy to spot given the different mounting holes). I did not revisit Tyco for its own (de)merits for another 3 years. Of course I have never seen another one in any venue... had I known then what I learned later, I would have snapped up that engine even with the melted shell. 
I will also note there are some peculiar Chessie 630's shown in catalogs that do no match the ones produced en masse - obvious preprods. So as for the D&H shown in that catalog: it's gray fuel tank would be an instant giveaway, assuming any produced had this feature as the tank is molded into the frame (so was the whole frame painted, or just the tank, and why bother with the added expense either way...?) In any case, I have never seen a phaseI D&H either. I would presume that it does not exist... but I would also say the same for the Chessie were it not for that chance encounter.
Tyco Unicorns those two remain...
Edited by - spiderj76 on July 17 2013 12:57:28 PM
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Posted - July 26 2013 : 12:51:31 AM
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Nice to hear from you, Tony. Sorry to hear you blew your website to bytes, but hopefully it won't take a complete reconstruction. Hope you're busy for good reasons.
I wouldn't say the drive is nearly identical. There are no interchangeable parts between the 630 and the U25C except the motor. It's the same basic arrangement, but Tyco made major changes. Most of the reduction in the U25C takes place in the fuel tank gearbox with a pinion and reduction gear, with finely cut helical gears in the trucks giving a little. From the photos you posted, the 630 has just a 1:1 transfer box to get the shafts down to truck level, with all the reduction happening through worms in the trucks.
The 630 sideframes all appear to have the exposed roller bearing ends, which is only the case on the right rear truck of the U25C, so the tooling was definitely modded slightly. I'm guessing Rivarossi did that mold work and added the 2 plastic pins so they could be attached to the Tyco underframes. The sideframes on the U25C are part of the upper truck casting and aren't detachable.
Are the 630 sideframes longer than the U25C versions, or just the truck housing? I know the 630 is a longer loco, so the frame should be longer than the U25C's as well.
It seems like an awful lot of effort and tooling expense to go to just to ditch it in a few years for the PT design. They must have been a lot cheaper to make.
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Posted - August 12 2013 : 04:53:12 AM
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Hey guys, I just found out the Rivarossi Delaware & Hudson C-630 does in fact exists. A friend of mine just confirmed it with me, he said he has one. He was also nice enough to send me a copy of the packaging list of everything that came in the train set. The set was an uncatalogued set from Sears & Roebuck from 1979, stock # 79-9734 and listed for $199.99. In it was a two locomotive set and had 10 cars. It was a set to be built on a 4 X 8 layout with 2 transformers and a huge load of track with switches etc. One of the two locos was the Delaware & Hudson and get this, this is also the set that has the Yellow Delaware & Hudson caboose, that is how we started talking about the set. He said "They needed a caboose to match the yellow and blue D&H because the common red D&H caboose from the 1960's was long out of production.
(This picture was retrieved from Tony L. website)
Edited by - GG-1 Guy on August 12 2013 04:56:04 AM
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Posted - August 12 2013 : 4:01:52 PM
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Considering things "long out of production": if that set (which I have heard of as well) was released in 1979, the Rivarossi / PhaseI 630 had by then been out of production for well over 5 years! So I would not take his word without a photo. Most collectors aren't so keen on the differences. And the one time I've seen that set - NIB with the yellow caboose to match - it had the PT versions (one powered, one dummy). A similar set was also sold in Chessie flavor as well.
Nelson,
I hear you on the differences, and may I point out I did use the qualifier "nearly" identical . At least in design, you certainly can't deny that Tyco was heavily influenced by Rivarossi since the drive is such a vast departure from everything Tyco had previously done, and even what other manufacturers were doing. An offset motor necessitating 3 driveshafts??? It remains a rather peculiar system.
Obviously Tyco at least had an agreement to source motors from Rivarossi. What is unknown, is if Riv lent design assistance or some patent licensing toward the entire drive, or if Tyco simply cribbed the design basics on their own. As you point out, they are "different enough". And yet when you compare the frames and the mechanical layout, they are obviously very similar. Tyco's materials are inferior so it may be Riv helped them design it to meet price requirements. I also note those wheel flanges are also deeper than what Tyco usually used...
When I compared the trucks again last night, they were much closer - maybe even the same - in length that what I recalled. It may be I meant the frames were different in length (630 being longer). The details are very different though. The bearing caps you already noted, but even the springs and brake shoes are different (no more or less accurate per se, just... different. They really are quite nice).
And as you point out, it certainly was an incredible amount of effort to throw away... and as for your reasoning, I do have some inside info on this that is frankly shocking. What I hope to get posted when/if I fix my site... I hadn't meant to hoard this info for so long.
Edited by - spiderj76 on August 12 2013 4:29:35 PM
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Posted - August 14 2013 : 01:21:33 AM
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Tony, I'm sure there was some kind of partnership between the two companies, but whether it was simply a patenting license or a design partnership is anyone's guess without some further inside info.
How long are the two frames? Maybe it's just due to the perspective in the photo, but the U25C frame looks as long or longer than the 630. The 630 should be longer, scale-wise.
quote:
And as you point out, it certainly was an incredible amount of effort to throw away... and as for your reasoning, I do have some inside info on this that is frankly shocking. What I hope to get posted when/if I fix my site... I hadn't meant to hoard this info for so long.
Originally posted by spiderj76 - August 12 2013 : 4:01:52 PM
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Now you have my interest piqued. The plot thickens!
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Posted - August 14 2013 : 01:32:14 AM
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WELL, I see one thing in those pictures Tony posted.....A scale model of a Krauss-Maffei diesel! that's basically how brass engines are powered (diesels)....
Interestingly enough....My interest is piqued too!
Plot, what plot? I think Tony isn't got a plot, just to keep us at the edge of our seats if anything at all!
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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