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 Posted - September 30 2012 : 1:31:36 PM
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Poll Question:
Has the hobby in your opinion become to expensive? Excluding the used market, only looking at brand new production like $25 grain hoppers from Athearn/Horizon, RTR/old blue box F units near $100 or higher for A powered B dummy combos, most other RTR engines over the $100 price point or darn near it and getting worse. Way to many large/expensive steamers ect. Are we nearing a critical point where folks will basicly say "screw it" and either go used equipment only or not enter the hobby all together?
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Posted - September 30 2012 : 2:46:31 PM
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The hobby would only be too expensive if new RTR highly detailed stuff was ALL there is. There's plenty of sale-priced new stuff from engines to rolling stock for reasonable prices. There's such a variation that you'd have to be blind not to find deals at train shows, etc. No, you won't get high quality, new cars for $5. I don't consider a $20 car that is super-detailed and tampo'd to be too expensive, but if it is for you, there's plenty of used RS around to satisfy in my opinion. I usually buy vintage anyway, but occasionally I will buy a new $25-50 diesel engine in a roadname I"m looking for when the occasion arises. AT least there's deals out there at the shows I go to in Virginia, Maryland, and West Virginia. Of course, I prefer diesels to steam, so I don't buy big huge steam engines, yes, those prices are in the triple digits, but not what I look for , I like the dock siders, small switchers, etc. I don't have any huge articulateds or 10-12 wheelers. So from that perspective, I don't consider the hobby expensive. But those have always been the "premium" engines in any hobby era. Most kids got the 2-4-0 steam engines in sets, you'd have to buy at a hobby shop to get the really big ones way back in our childhood as well, and they'd be more expensive then, too. It's all relative.
Jerry
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
Edited by - AMC_Gremlin_GT on September 30 2012 2:50:09 PM
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Posted - September 30 2012 : 3:07:30 PM
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I believe as in all hobbies (or purchase) it is only too expensive if you don't have the income to support it.
Walt
Luck, usually comes dressed in work clothes...
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Posted - September 30 2012 : 4:59:02 PM
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I myself can remember yellow box atlas(roco) diesels for 9.99 from a major mail order advertiser in MRR magazine, Athearn F units for under $15 for a super power version with flywheels. I just cant believe the prices for some of the most current stuff, darn near $100 for a Bachmann diesel with a Decoder, near or over $200 for one with sound/dcc. Most all Athearn cars are just assembled blue box at higher prices. I know I dont buy anything brand new, I stayed with the older blue box kits, MDC/Roundhouse kits, then I got into wood kits. Now with my new layouts wild west focus, I will be using Tyco/Mantua engines, cars, along with a few from AHM, MDC/Roundhouse, yes I know they are a bit newer than late 1880's but I do need some variety. I haunt the shows and ebay for my needs. Mike
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Posted - September 30 2012 : 6:35:02 PM
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Me personally, I enjoy used models over new, probably because mantua isn't around anymore and they are my favorite, but the huge variety of HO steamers that Roundhouse, Mantua, and Varney made sure tops anything any manufacture makes today. Roundhouse?athearn is the only company that sticks to steam locomotivs but I have 2 of their new 2-6-0s and will have the new 2-8-0 in December so they don't have a huge selection to choose from. I could not keep up with today's world if only new models were made and for sale.
BUT that doesn't mean I don't buy new models, I buy a lot of new engines but generally DC or DCC ready, on board is too expensive and don't even get me started on Sound manufactures like MTH and BLI that charge wayyy to much!!
I buy, repair, and collect
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http://www.youtube.com/user/TheDeputation?feature=watch
Hyde.
Edited by - SCVR66 on September 30 2012 6:36:35 PM
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Posted - September 30 2012 : 7:13:53 PM
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All, I think the "cost" of the hobby has topped out...... Theres WAY to many $30 locomotives, now selling for well over $150!!!!With sound? Well over $200!
Being said that, I can't get Bachmann DCC......There newest additions aren't bad, but the price? I just can't justify it.....
Then you have Athearn, they were GREAT years ago BEFORE the Horizon Hobbies take over... Along with Roundhouse, they were GREAT too before the Horizon take over.....They discontinued the blue box kits for Athearn and ALL the kits for MDC Roundhouse, and I bet their sales dropped due to this. I haven't bought a single "new" item due to this.....Boycotted if thats what you want to call it.....
I model steam, and the only company thats sticking to or by steam is Bachmann.....
I don't buy new, but when I do, it REALLY has to jump out an grab me. If not, I can do without! (I really got plenty to do within my shop for MANY a year to come!)
The last 2 "New" items I bought.... the Bachmann Spectrum 3 Truck Shay, back in 2005............ The other new item I bought? The New Bachmann Spectrum B&O EM-1, 2-8-8-4......From 2005 to skip to 2012........ thats quite a span on purchases of anything new, when I used to do that sort of thing day to day or even week by week..... EVERYTHING I got before that time, OR in the middle of these years, or now, have been either used items, OR a trade I made......
Because of the prices, its not month by month. I got to do it as a choice for I am like alot of the rest of you, I like the old stuff, the kits and the building of them......... I'll pick up a RTR model at a "used" price, just to make it a kit. Rip it apart to make it into something I can use or model if not this, then ripped apart for parts to build something else.....specially when the item I'm building is not made by anyone! Then, I think to myself, "a used price is the right price, to take it apart and possibly screw it up" NO, I don't make mistakes offen, but I do, and I don't want to be out of "XX" dollars instead of being out "X" dollars....
See?
Thats my soap box, *puts it down for someone else to pick it up!* 
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
Edited by - EM-1 on September 30 2012 7:17:29 PM
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Posted - September 30 2012 : 8:30:47 PM
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Ok, my soap box turn! Thanks John. I remember a year ago and $40 meant ya got a new Athearn engine kit. Took maybe 10 minutes and some glue. Now, rolling stock goes for that! Nothing wrong with used either! Now even Bachmann is getting high! I just remembered getting into N scale back in Christmas of '06, cheap stuff then. for the price of a new steamer, lets say Bachmann Spectrum.. I can get 2-4 steamers at the show non B-S !
" Heck with counting 'em rivets, TRAINS ARE FOR FUN! Not called the Mad Scientist for nothing either!"
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Posted - September 30 2012 : 8:52:17 PM
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Justin,
Your welcome! I know what ya mean by the one Spectrum steamer could mean 2-4 steamers no B-S.....
I do that ALL the time.....I seem to fall into that Pile o' S**t ALL the time......
Yeah, I guess you could say, I like the smell of "THAT type of POO!
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - September 30 2012 : 9:09:32 PM
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if only spectrum could make long lastign steamers!! My 3 truck climax blew it's DCC decoder just last week!! It's onyl 4 months old!!  It's goign back to bachmann with y 4-8-4 to be replaced with new ones. Also the bachmann 2-8-2 I just bought cracked it's axles!! The only good steam manufacture to me is Roundhouse/Athearn.
I buy, repair, and collect
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Hyde.
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Posted - September 30 2012 : 9:34:13 PM
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I wouldnt even lump current Athearn/Roundhouse steam into the good catagory, comes from the same Chinese factory as the rest of the "stuff". The only good steam in my book is older Mantua, Tyco, Bowser, English, Penn Line and older PFM/Tenshodo brass if one can afford those. Now if someone redid the Tyco/Mantua Dixie Belle with a can motor drive, sign me up, better yet, why doesnt Alliance Locomotive Works do up a Helix Humper repower kit for them. I bet the Dixie and the Mastadon would just crawl with a good can motor in them. Most of the older open frame motors are now suffering from weak magnets. Next on the soap box! Mike
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Posted - September 30 2012 : 10:17:25 PM
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This is why I buy used or unwanted stuff alot
One time I got a Tyco Bicentennial unit for $10 at a show He said it didn't work but a few months later I tried it & it ran Needs abit of oiling but it runs!
I think its the Century 430 unit Not sure 
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Posted - September 30 2012 : 10:49:23 PM
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quote:I wouldnt even lump current Athearn/Roundhouse steam into the good catagory, comes from the same Chinese factory as the rest of the "stuff". The only good steam in my book is older Mantua, Tyco, Bowser, English, Penn Line and older PFM/Tenshodo brass if one can afford those. Now if someone redid the Tyco/Mantua Dixie Belle with a can motor drive, sign me up, better yet, why doesnt Alliance Locomotive Works do up a Helix Humper repower kit for them. I bet the Dixie and the Mastadon would just crawl with a good can motor in them. Most of the older open frame motors are now suffering from weak magnets. Next on the soap box! Mike
Originally posted by cadetpwr - September 30 2012 : 9:34:13 PM
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Mike,
I HAVE re-motored the old Mantua/TYCO Dixie Belle to run REALLY well with a can motor.....
IF interested, PM me on it as I got the means to do it alot more for those that want it done!
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - October 01 2012 : 07:54:55 AM
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quote:I wouldnt even lump current Athearn/Roundhouse steam into the good catagory, comes from the same Chinese factory as the rest of the "stuff". The only good steam in my book is older Mantua, Tyco, Bowser, English, Penn Line and older PFM/Tenshodo brass if one can afford those. Now if someone redid the Tyco/Mantua Dixie Belle with a can motor drive, sign me up, better yet, why doesnt Alliance Locomotive Works do up a Helix Humper repower kit for them. I bet the Dixie and the Mastadon would just crawl with a good can motor in them. Most of the older open frame motors are now suffering from weak magnets. Next on the soap box! Mike
Originally posted by cadetpwr - September 30 2012 : 9:34:13 PM
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Mike,
Well that would depend on the Athearn Genesis steamers! The first 2 of recent times, the 2-8-2 and the 4-6-2....These 2 models were made by Samhongsa, out of plastic, NOT brass, but were made to be like Brass models.....HOWEVER they are decent runners, BUT your track work needs to be 100% flawless!
I'm not sure of ANY of the steamers that where made after these 2, They could be as well Chinese, where the 2-8-2 and 4-6-2 are Japanese.
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - October 01 2012 : 1:12:59 PM
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Mantuas are my all time favorite, there's not a problem on them that I can't identify or solve...now I love the wide variety of the old stuff, today you're pretty much stuck with what they have.
I buy, repair, and collect
http://scvr.weebly.com/
http://seyboldlocomotiveworks.weebly.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheDeputation?feature=watch
Hyde.
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Posted - October 01 2012 : 3:25:18 PM
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The two built by Samhongsa are a major PITA to work on, are both highly prone to axle gear splitting with no spares at Athearn anymore. So your left will pulling one driver, installing the new NWSL gear they have for these models and requartering the driver set. I have 3 NKP light Mikados coming in soon for repair, all with blown gears. All having never been run! The newer 4-6-6-4 is of Chinese construction I believe. I have yet to see an older Tyco/Mantua style drive, Bowser, Penn Line steamer split an axle gear, wear them out, strip them from improper worm gear mesh, yes, but rarely. Most run like new once properly cleaned of old hardened grease and varnished oil. For what we pay for these new fangled trains, there should be NO issues with gears splitting. For what they charge, and then we see how deep the discounts go and I am sure nobody is loosing any money here, there should be proper engineering and testing, along with using properly aged plastic for gears, or better yet, brass gearing. Mike
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Posted - October 02 2012 : 11:19:50 PM
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I was introduced into the hobby in 1973 - Tyco/Mantua train set at Christmas - my first Spirit of 76 Alco C430 still runs - unreal. Even though Mantua is gone, the majority of my engines, and cars date back to Tyco/Mantua. I followed Mantua when they split from Tyco - I have found their later dual drive can motor diesels to be tremendous. At one time I had about 600 Sq. Ft . room of 6 connecting tables. When I moved 10 years ago, I had to downsize to a 4x8 table with a connecting 3x8 table. One full trip around the two tables involves over 20 stiches (Tyco/Atlas) and 3 of the dreaded curved switches, and a turn around at the end of the 3' table containing 15 inch radius curve. I run some steam, including Mantua Mikados, and alot of diesels, GP-20's and F-9s/F-7's and Alco 430s and occassionally a 630. I have a few Athern, Spectrum pieces etc - and they are fine, but the Tyco and Mantua lines are my long time favorite. I'm 45 years old now - and I'm now convinced that a lot of this stuff will outlast me - I have no reason not to enjoy the stuff I have - it works....and works and works and works. Good used and never ran stuff is plentiful - cheap pieces for parts are plentiful. And on a layout like mine, horn hook couplers mounted on trucks are the greatest thing to me ever. Any rolling stock with body mounted couplers are fine as long as they are sandwiched between two Tyco truck mounted couplers.
When Mantua closed down, they were producing some of the best stuff in their history. Don't forget that some Mantua stuff lives on in Model Power - they've done a nice job with the Mantua Classics line - and Model Power's GP-20 with Mantua drive, is the Mantua GP-20 - and it's available for well under $50. There's still really nice stuff out there.
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Posted - October 04 2012 : 10:10:24 AM
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I am glad to see that Model Power has kept the logging 2-6-6-2 alive as well. I have owned a couple of them and they made some needed improvements, mainly a universal joint between the two gear boxes instead of the rubber tube that shoves the front driver set around instead of just transfering power. Now if we can get Aliance loco works, who make the Helix Humper, to offer a repower kit for the 4-6-0/4-8-0 old timers, I will be super happy. Mike
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Posted - October 04 2012 : 11:15:21 PM
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I cannot afford new these days, but am more than willing to spend what little discretionary money i have available at swap meets on used kits and such. An unbuilt Athearn BB car kit is new to me, and refurbishing a used built model gives me hours of satisfaction. Same goes for repowering old engines. I treat swap meets like an economic time machine- revisting the past pricewise, but easily able to return to the present. Several years ago,(2007/08), i was still able to find bargains on the Trainworld website, but even they have raised prices across the board enough to prevent me from considering purchases there.
Ron
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Posted - October 05 2012 : 12:31:44 AM
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Even though i'm a teenager I can sometimes afford new engines but I dont buy a lot of new engines, generally just recieve them as gifts for christmas or birthday. The train store I go to buys a lot of used stuff so i get to save every few months for another locomotive! And i don't borrow from my parents  New locos are getting WAYY to expensive
I buy, repair, and collect
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http://www.youtube.com/user/TheDeputation?feature=watch
Hyde.
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Posted - October 05 2012 : 01:29:05 AM
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I don't usually buy new products.
I buy at train shows. The hunt is part of the fun.
Ray
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Posted - October 05 2012 : 01:41:44 AM
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| Sadly its gotten way to expensive, model railroading is fast becomeing a rich mans hobby , i personally am planning on getting out of the hobby , because of the cost
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Posted - October 07 2012 : 12:01:48 AM
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Life itself is getting expensive here on my home island, and as my siblings pointed out my income is really what my dad gives me. If I didn't live within 20 miles of Trainland, I couldn't afford the hobby. $50 for a life-like train-set locomotive? $30 for a single middle-road boxcar?
The only reason the hobby didn't die for me was because I switched over to used equipment and because I scrape-out bargain bins at the other shops.
The hobby will never die, but the industry may thin out as prices go up, demand goes down, and the rift widens between the "I want to have an okay train" and "I need a swiss watch train" modeler widens
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Posted - October 07 2012 : 09:56:37 AM
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Yes, it is expensive. But consider that each person is different. They want this or that.
I have appx 27 locomotives. I could sell 23 of them and still run "my railroad" .
We dont have a LHS here where I live. The nearest good train shop is 100 miles from here.
So almost all my stuff comes from e-bay. Its inexpensive and analog and used mostly.
And yes, sometimes repairs are made. But it keeps me in the hobby.
caboose 1
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Posted - October 07 2012 : 2:12:13 PM
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Personaly, I dont think getting out of the hobby due to the expense of new equipment is a good answer. Maybe looking toward the second hand market or building more kits will allow one to continue the hobby. I look at new MRR magazines from a friend that has a subscription and see nothing that I really want. I pull out my collection of old musty RMC/MRR's from the early 50's to the mid 70's and see all kinds of things I want. From Tenshdo brass NYC engines, to wood freight car kits and various older building kits. The how to articles are actualy something a good modeler could tackle in a few evenings of work. Newer stuff has all gone RTR, from engines to buildings from Woodland Scenics amoung others. But its all at a price, a high price that hits our pocketbooks hard. It can be a real turn off for someone new to the hobby. I dare, tripple dog dare, any good model railroader thinking of hanging it up due to high costs, to go get a few older, 50's thru the early 70's magazines, read them cover to cover a few times and tell me they still want to hang it up. That older stuff is out there, the hunt is half the fun, and the feeling when that package arrives in the mail, you win the auction or find it on the table at the show is totaly priceless IMHO! I can buy older brass steamers cheaper than BLI stuff, yes it wont have sound or dcc, but that can be added if desired in the future. I have moved away from DCC back to analog control, and for the most part open frame motors and thier great ozone smell. Replacing the magnet on the motor and a good cleaning is normaly all that is needed to bring one that is weak and running hot back to life. The only real differance between the open frame and can type is the skewed armature and newer magnet material. This hobby can and has been done on tight budgets before. I know mine is quite tight, despite the fact I have brass engines. I simplify, sell unneeded items and fix stuff for others to generate funds. Cheers Mike
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Posted - October 19 2012 : 5:47:00 PM
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I've been in this hobby a long time and had adjusted to the price increases, but what did blow me away was what seemed to be the "sudden price jumps" for non-DCC HO locomotives during the mid 2000s. Straight DC units that before typically sold for $75-$80 were selling for $100-$140....Yipes! ( Yes,I know: "Manufacturing costs were going up, it's the economy, stupid!" )
I've been fortunate that a number of units that I wanted (Atlas and P2K) became available on ebay at some pretty good prices. Just took a bit of patience.
I've learned to be patient and budget carefully. I'm happy that DCC is actually cheaper and much better in quality than it was just 10 years ago. But DCC-Sound becomes pricey if installing in a batch of locomotives.
Even though my budget is tight, I do want to hear diesel engines and multi-chime horns coming from at least 8 of my locomotives. So again, it's been a matter of being patient and getting things done, one at a time.
Be creative, share and enjoy the hobby :-)
Edited by - AntonioFP45 on October 19 2012 5:50:42 PM
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Posted - October 19 2012 : 7:04:18 PM
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As I said, the ONLY time I get brand new engines are as birthday or christmas gifts, I ocasionally buy a new engine here and there with MY money but mainly I just buy used ones, more fun IMO. Plus when I buy a new engine I don't buy DCC/Sound, mostly just DCC ready and sometimes DCC on board, but that's it.
I buy, repair, and collect
http://scvr.weebly.com/
http://seyboldlocomotiveworks.weebly.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheDeputation?feature=watch
Hyde.
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Posted - October 20 2012 : 08:47:43 AM
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* Manufactures have forgotten about entry level trains, and less expensive kits. The emphasis is on ready to run well detailed trains, with high profit margins. Quality seems at time lacking. High pressure tactics, sales statements like, " hurry and get your preproduction order in, ( for this new whatever it is,) or miss out!" . " Limited run only! " I see that, and after that, pay no attention to the Manufacture and distributer. Cheep high pressure sales tricks. They are not worth my time. I would rather do without them.
* Companies that explain things. Show necessary important information about their product, and back with a good guarantees and return policies, attract my interest.
* Remember when you buy these low production items at high prices, then find out they are a limited run item with limited or no replacement parts their better be a good warrantee, and return policy. One that a company with honor, honors. If not the company shows it deserves no trust. No return sales. Not even their name mentioned. I know of a few companies I would like to see fail and have for years now not deserved my purchases.
toptrain1
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
Edited by - toptrain on October 20 2012 09:10:53 AM
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Posted - October 22 2012 : 2:16:05 PM
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Model Railroading has never exactly been a "cheap" hobby, but I do agree the total focus on higher-end RTR and superdetailed items, at the expense of affordable (and available!) entry-level items is troubling.
On the other hand though, it's hard to figure out which is the chicken or egg in this scenario. Is the hobby in decline (and make no mistake, it IS in terms of participants, popularity, perception and exposure) *because* of a lack of affordable quality items, or have the manufacturers understandably chased the market conditions simply to survive?
We're out there, but on the whole there are very few people my age (30's or younger) in the hobby. At every show, convention, swap meet, and other RR-themed even I feel like I just learned to walk compared to the general crowd. It's not a hobby for young people - and the reasons for that could take hours to explore. I personally don't mind this, but I have no illusions either.
So then. Older folks (no offense) don't want to fiddle with building things against poor eyesight and arthritis, but demand high detail. Young people don't fool with cheap stuff (and in many cases remember the crap (Tyco, LifeLike, Bachmann) from the 80's and won't dare touch it). And if you're not retired, modern life (for young people) affords almost no spare time for such "silly" time-consuming hobbies like model trains.
So you're trying to survive selling trains today - who do you listen to? You go where most of the money in a shrinking pool is.
In the long run though, I expect the prices of used stuff to crash even further as older generations pass on. There simply isn't the demand or interest from younger ones to sustain values and pricing. New stuff will always be expensive... but old stuff will generally become more affordable (rarities excepted of course).
But back to "model railroading was never "cheap": Pick a Tyco Redbox car - say a tanker, caboose, or boxcar - from the mid-60's (we'll say "1965" to split the decade) and a common price - stamped right on the box! - was "$2.98". $2.98 in 1965 is roughly $21.00 in today's money. On the whole, that's a pretty constant price for a model of that caliber... but the $21.00 2012 model is generally superior.
Or consider this surprising tidbit I discovered when doing some research for a recent review I wrote for Model Railroad News. I was reviewing the new Spring Mills Depot B&O Canstock Boxcar - a model that retails for $50. Fifty Dollars for an HO boxcar!!!!  But it's a spectacular model, ready to go out of the box. Previous to this, the only way to get a Canstock car without kitbashing or scratchbuilding it yourself, was to build the old Quality Craft Models wood kit from 1972. This kit retailed for $5.95 in 1972 - or $32.00 in 2012. And for that price, you still had to buy couplers AND trucks. And build it. AND paint it. AND decal it. AND it had a few quirks and inaccuracies... AND still would not have looked as nice as the modern model. Could you buy a set of trucks with metal wheels, and Kadee couplers, and pay for your time, all for $18? Probably not.
Of course you can find that wood kit for under 20 2012 dollars, and building it is part of the fun, maybe, if you can do it or enjoy the rewards of a challenge.
But "progress" and "expense" is always relative.
I personally think if today's caliber Bachmann sets were available in the 80's, instead of the awful $#!^ they and Tyco, et al dumped back then, a few people might have stuck around in the hobby. But modern railroads don't engender much affection either... and that's a whole 'nother topic for duscussion.... 
Edited by - spiderj76 on October 22 2012 2:20:15 PM
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Posted - October 22 2012 : 2:44:51 PM
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Then how come for instance Accurail can sell a kit for so much less... Athearn got out of that game.
Your rant in support of more expensive models does not make sense, sorry spider...
As far as your comments about older folks, you'll get there soon enough!
Mike
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Posted - October 22 2012 : 3:21:32 PM
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Mike,
Nowhere in my "rant" did I specifically support expensive models. I was lending an objective view, that in some cases the "more expensive" stuff isn't really vastly more so. There's no hard and fast answer.
Let's try another example. A Tyco C430 locomotive cost $18.00 in 1972. That's ~$96.00 today. Bachmann sells a whole host of vastly superior locos for that - some even with sound for not much more. You can still get a new Athearn RTR for that too. Which would you rather have?
I will say there is probably a lot more competition for household income than there was in 1965... so while prices may have remained "more or less constant", there's a lot less to spend thereupon.
I overheard some industry chatter at the NMRA convention in Grand Rapids that was telling, and frankly sickening. Some companies certainly have a short-sighted view. But the same could be said of America, Inc. on the whole.
FWIW, I have spent absolutely $0.00 on "new" models in the past 18 months (and no, MRN doesn't spiff that well either). The 2 years prior to that were maybe $200 in total, though I did receive a few gifts besides. Most of my purchases are older things, for many of the same reasons people here cite. I enjoy the older items - building, collecting, improving... and personally I don't need every last car to brandish the ultimate in detail. Some of the new stuff is beyond absurd - who the heck looks at the bottom of a passenger car for more than a minute or two at most?? Sure, I can appreciate a dedicated enthusiast or three, but I wouldn't expect so many to justify Rapido amortizing tooling costs across every car they sell.
As for being old: I assure you, my kids have ensured I pretty much already am :)
Edited by - spiderj76 on October 22 2012 3:30:09 PM
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Posted - October 22 2012 : 3:59:51 PM
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Maybe we should be promoting those manufacturerers like Accurail who can sell a quality product in kit form for less.
I agree unless I am modeling a lot of derailments the undersides of cars does not mean much to me...
My 2 cents...
Mike
Thanks Spider for the good discussion...
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Posted - October 22 2012 : 4:57:30 PM
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I agree, Accurail makes excellent products and does a great job balancing quality and price. Still made in the USA too, which is (sadly) astounding and worth celebrating. I wish they had more, but that probably helps keep their costs down, since a lot of their tooling is pretty old by today's standards. Still, it holds up well, and I'd recommend them to anyone. They even offer(ed?) renumbering sheets to change roadnumbers with matched paint colors, too!
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Posted - October 22 2012 : 6:59:54 PM
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I thought you would notice, Accurail "Still made in the USA". I mean what does it take, plastic, molds and an injection machine... I am not that picky of a modeler, if it looks like a train, it's a train...
I appreciate the higher end models, but I am not in that job classification to afford them.
Do I love train shows, you bet...
Mike
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Posted - October 23 2012 : 01:21:38 AM
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I'm a confirmed train show & eBay picker, scrounging for great deals, projects, or diamonds in the rough. I suppose like most of us here that makes me a minority in today's hobby. So be it; all the more for me. The best kind of train show for me is one where other MR'ers are selling off their own items, as opposed to large shows with dealers selling new merchandise at very little to no discount. Still, there are bargains to be found even amongst such dealers.
In terms of the current hobby market, I'm an all-of-the-above kind of guy. I'm glad the high detail (and hopefully quality) items exist, and even own a few, which are fantastic. I suppose what irks me most about the current business model is the complete lack of support most of these high-end manufacturers offer the consumer. These expensive locomotives are produced in batches with no runs of spare parts, so if an axle gear cracks you have to resort to cannibalism or hope that the good folks at NWSL smile upon you with a replacement. (Bachmann Shay, anyone?) How many will become doorstops in the next few decades remains to be seen.
I experienced this firsthand while working for a well-known Swiss watch company: certain of their brands produced watches with no spare parts, making servicing them difficult, and it wasn't as if we had to beseech some faceless Chinese factory for the spares.
It's hard to understand that kind of thinking, especially when you consider that years ago small companies like Athearn, AHM and Mantua/Tyco had parts sheets and complete inventories of replacement parts. I guess the labor to keep that inventory stocked was cheaper back then. At least maintain a good supply of plastic gearing, or make the bloody axle gears from brass!
quote:
I personally think if today's caliber Bachmann sets were available in the 80's, instead of the awful $#!^ they and Tyco, et al dumped back then, a few people might have stuck around in the hobby. But modern railroads don't engender much affection either... and that's a whole 'nother topic for duscussion....
Originally posted by spiderj76Â -Â October 22 2012Â :Â 2:16:05 PM
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I couldn't agree more. Bachmann has really stepped up with their standard line and starter sets, but it was so long in coming that it's no doubt too little, too late in terms of the public's perception and the competition for the hobby/leisure dollar.
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - October 23 2012 : 07:12:07 AM
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Nelson,
I could not have said it better myself! I totally agree on how you said as I fall right into the same thought pattern and ways you think....
I LOVE train shows! I have a few new items, not many but a few.....I think some of the new item prices are a bit steep, even for the beginner stuff....what exist of it at this rate!
I have my ups and downs, HELL I own a shop to repair this stuff and make alot of my own detail parts right here in the good ole USA, NOT China! Yes, my wife does certain secretarial work for me, my daughter, shes 7, she'll carry a small box every now and again from the 3rd floor. "Chores" that gets her, a $20.00 allowance every week! Mostly, she does around the house things, all of our animals (pets) feeding and take the puppy out etc.... But you guys get what I'm saying, I got my daughter playing with HO scale Thomas....She wants Gordon, so be it, I'm in the looks for him! Shes got Thomas, Henry, Percy, and one of the little box cabs I thing its Ben, I'm not sure.
Its a family thing for me at this point, I'm the only "Yellowstone Train Repairs" true, employee....My wife, she also paints all the little people when needed or someone wants it done....10 people for $25.00 not to shabby for professionally done painting! AND my issue with it, I can't match the 1900's clothing colors, or the 1950's or 1960's, my wife on the other hand, IS GREAT at it! 1960's mini skirt? with a 1960's color or pattern? she'll do it.....And look awesome when shes finished! But you see, this is why the hobby is becoming what it has.....They don't have beginner levels anymore.....Bachmann, maybe, if you look at the standard line but its still pricey, and even it "tosses" you right into the DCC world, and all the digital crap, what happened to the good ole "power packs" of yesteryear for beginners?
All right I'll drop the soap box and leave someone else have it before I get off into a rant! LOL
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
Edited by - EM-1 on October 25 2012 11:40:13 PM
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Posted - October 25 2012 : 9:56:29 PM
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I feel like I fall into 2 camps when it comes to this discussion. First and formost, I am single with no debt and make a very good salary (even for Southern California) so money not being an issue, I buy what I like sometimes paying no attention to the price. That being said, nothing makes me happier than finding bargains on ebay or at train shows. I get a huge kick out of finding fixer uppers and bargain locos.Though some of the new stuff is very nice, I a modeler and love finding ways to improve a loco/ rolling stock. Just the other day I found 2 kato fixer uppers for 30 bucks. Best of all they are Santa Fe. The hobby is what you make it and there s something for everyone on any budget.
If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right.
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Posted - January 29 2013 : 10:47:48 PM
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quote:Has the hobby in your opinion become to expensive? Excluding the used market, only looking at brand new production like $25 grain hoppers from Athearn/Horizon, RTR/old blue box F units near $100 or higher for A powered B dummy combos, most other RTR engines over the $100 price point or darn near it and getting worse. Way to many large/expensive steamers ect. Are we nearing a critical point where folks will basicly say "screw it" and either go used equipment only or not enter the hobby all together?
Originally posted by cadetpwr - September 30 2012 : 1:31:36 PM
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Posted - January 29 2013 : 10:51:51 PM
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quote:Has the hobby in your opinion become to expensive? Excluding the used market, only looking at brand new production like $25 grain hoppers from Athearn/Horizon, RTR/old blue box F units near $100 or higher for A powered B dummy combos, most other RTR engines over the $100 price point or darn near it and getting worse. Way to many large/expensive steamers ect. Are we nearing a critical point where folks will basicly say "screw it" and either go used equipment only or not enter the hobby all together?
Originally posted by cadetpwr - September 30 2012 : 1:31:36 PM
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Yes I do agree that the hobby has gotten way to exspensive considering that most of the people out their cant aford the hobby thats why alot of the hobbie shops have closed by me their has been at least 15 to 20shops that have closed over the last few years .
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Posted - January 30 2013 : 01:35:04 AM
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Tony pretty much summed it up. You get what you pay for. When I built my N scale layout a few summers ago I spent a couple hundred dollars on a brand new set of F-units and a short string of streamliners. I can justify this to myself though, as I don't plan on collecting a whole hoard of N scale equipment. I wanted to focus on scenery so I bought one really reliable train that I know will keep running and require little maintenance.
I'd also like to point out that this is a forum filled mainly with large volume collectors. We come home from shows with bags/boxes/cars full of used model trains. If you translate all that in to new equipment of course it's too expensive
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Posted - January 30 2013 : 09:37:04 AM
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| Alot of my collection was my fathers,but ive been adding to it by going to the trains shows and buying used,even under the tables you get the good deals. At a few local shops I go to also have new and used but I buy mostly used. There is not alot that I want to buy new,so far for my O guage I would like the Polar Express and the Strasburg set,more strasburg since its right in my own back yard. Some new ho locos are going for over $100. I agree its getting expensive.
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Posted - January 30 2013 : 10:04:16 AM
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I agree 101% with Tony. If you look at ads and catalogs from say the 50's steamers were about $36, that is almost $300 in todays money. If you go back to the 40's and 30's it is even worse. I don't think model railroading is in decline because of price, there are just too many other factors like RC, video games, organized sports, watching tv and movies, etc etc. Hobby shops close because they cannot compete with internet pricing (and people always want a deal) and there are just too few customers out there. Same goes for book stores. The stuff today is incredible (I am more of an n scaler) compared to 20 years ago. Kato engines and Micro Trains (Kadee) cars, just to name a few, have details and capabilities unheard of in the 70's and 80's - especially in n scale. Just my .02.
rich p
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Posted - January 31 2013 : 01:52:49 AM
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To Too Two
It's Too expensive To buy Two brass locomotives if your budget, or budjet, doesn't exceed the sky-high costs of a down-payment of $50 and 10 payments of $50 thereafter... of only ONE brass locomotive. If you can afford to buy a porsche every year, then you can afford to own one and insure it every year.
I'm mixing good and bad grammar... as if it spoke for itself. Go figure!
Sorry, "To Expensive" ... and I commit vain hypocrisy!
The expense is for judgement of the beholder.
If you want to scratch-build, the costs can go both ways... You make the choice.
Buy a kit? $2.00 to $200.
Ready to run? $5.00 to $500. Again, you make the choice.
Real estate... is it all yours, or do you share it?
Someone, in this forum, pointed out a "New" "small" scale... 1:450... holy Flea crap!
It would serve as an out-door "G Gage" railroad layout on a real "G Gage" out-door layout!
To approach or repeat the poll question and give an answer, your choice of how your money is spent gives the answer...
...someone in this forum also had a closing signature of, uh  Quosamy... okay, I spelled it wrong, but it meant "Too Much Is Never Enough!"
Someone else has a similar one, "If everything is under control, you're not going fast enough." "Mario Andretti"
Someone's gonna "Alert Moderator" on my response, perhaps. But, I hope that my response actually makes sense to most of you.
John
p.s. I saw someone buy shoes that cost over $500, and a ring for $(gulp) $20,000...
I scratched my head, shook my head... bought a locomotive for $250 without breaking a sweat or applying the Heimlich manouver on my wallet. You know what I mean!
I don't have a one track mind. It depends on the turn-out.
"I love your catenary!"
Is that a power-trip or just another pick-up line?
Edited by - zebrails on January 31 2013 02:02:21 AM
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Posted - May 07 2013 : 8:44:35 PM
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I voted "too expensive", but it hasn't stopped me. Most all purchases are from train shows, ebay...but I still buy new - maybe once a year (I just bought a new Bachmann DD40 AX. A contributing factor was that it was under $100). Wheelsets, couplers, paint, "parts" are still bought at the LHS.
I'll say this, the hobby has to be pretty important to you to keep paying the high prices, but at the same time, what prices haven't gone up?
I do miss "the good old days" of the Athearn Blue Boxes and the like.
http://tycodepot.com/
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Posted - May 07 2013 : 9:59:37 PM
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I think the poll could have been laid out...differently. A little late now, but "too expensive" and "only buy used" could be selected together.
My last "new" purchase was...I was going to say my Rivarossi 2-8-0 in 1965, but then I remembered my Mantua 0-6-0 shifter, new in 1970 was my absolute last.
Both exist in the family today, both run quite well.
I have more H0 stuff now than I ever did......and have no intention of laying any of the track I have. That will be for my nephew to do.
Most of what I have has been given to me. BIG boxes of stuff.
Some used I have purchased off forums like this and yahoo, Athearn PA and PB (separate purchases), latest an Athearn RDC and some Amtrak coaches....which were stripped, all getting painted "my" railroad colours.
I enjoy making them run right and look good.
Had to change an armature on one of my Varney spring belt drive F3's last week. No big deal anymore.
Dave
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Posted - May 25 2013 : 9:54:24 PM
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| I buy used, and new, only if the price is right. I'm cheap, and thank goodness detail parts are somewhat priced right.
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Posted - May 27 2013 : 09:33:09 AM
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To put it simply YES WAAAAAAAAY TO EXPENSIVE
But not just railroading anything
Action figyres trading cards you name it
The best luck I have are profesionally run tag sales Yea somtimes over priced but sometimes tings slip through cracks
ex Got a Tru Scale Display track for ten bucks
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Posted - June 20 2013 : 10:07:16 AM
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I have been around for a while, and last year I bought my wife a new ford. That car cost 10 times what my first new Ford cost in 1969. With that being said my earning power has only increased about 5 times.
I purchased new Athearn engines through the mail for about $20 then. I can buy a new Bachmann F7 for around $70 now. I know they have done a better job of holding the prices down, than the other companies. The Bachmann standard line of HO engines have replaced the Athearn line in my book.
I really do miss having a vendor that has a long time standard for parts, and keeps them around.
Athearn was good at that for many years.
Regards, John *******************************************************************
Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things:
One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell.
The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love.
Butch Hancock
Edited by - JRG1951 on June 21 2013 2:32:09 PM
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Posted - September 17 2013 : 10:56:30 PM
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I said that if you could only get new stuff I wouldn't enter the hobby.
A Tyco set with a Mantua Shifter a few cars, some accessories, a loop of track and a couple of switches were my entry point as a kid. This was the big Christmas present for my brothers and me. At the time the entry level for serious models, as opposed to train set toys, was Athearn blue box. With minor improvements, the Tyco stuff could be used alongside the Athearn stuff. The entry was fairly gradual and evolutionary, requiring no vast commitment of money and effort by someone still testing the water.
Now, with engines in the hundreds of dollars, cars around thirty dollars, and buildings going pretty high, too, the move from train set to serious model or from vague interest to either is a wide, deep chasm not crossable in two jumps. How does a newcomer decide whether he likes this hobby enough to want to fork over the price of the new stuff?
Folks on this forum have found cheap ways to proceed, and are already sure enough of their interest to want to spend what's necessary even if the cheap way were not available. As for newcomers who don't know the deals we know, I think we'll see their numbers decline.
Carpe Manana!
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Posted - October 08 2013 : 06:06:22 AM
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I'm only in my 20s and in my (relatively) brief lifetime I've seen the prices come up. I remember growing up in the 90s and looking through the old Bachmann and Atlas catalogs and going into the hobby shop and seeing how much cheaper everything is compared to today. Granted then you almost had horn and hook couples and plastic wheels on most freight cars. I remember buying a new model power steam switcher for five dollars (but even today model power is cheaper than most) at a train show. A new DC engine usually ran into the thirties if it was plastic, if I recall correctly, maybe 50s if it was a large sized steamer.
Nowadays a new HO train set from Bachmann runs up close to 200, basically only Life Like and Model Power have affordable train sets which is a shame since train sets are what get kids in the hobby. How many parents will buy a train set with a simple oval of track anymore for Christmas if a new game system costs the same amount?
I understand production values have increased and new stuff is very DCC focused but it is ridiculous with just freight cars. New HO scale freight cars cost what Lionel freight cars cost in the 90s, and Lionel costs even more. A lot of the excuse is that as China's economy has risen from third world status it makes cheap labor less plentiful. I am actually glad this is happening from a humanitarian standpoint where the average standard of living in China has come up. However it has definitely hurt model railroad prices in a big way. Some of the older stuff you have marked as made in Korea or Taiwan, because if you remember these used to be third world countries back in the 70s. Yugoslavia too, they were the only communist nation friendly to the USA so they supplied a lot of cheap products from model trains to cars. Still I feel like they have jacked some stuff up beyond a realistic price. Do you mean to tell me that adding metal trucks makes HO freight cars worth 20 dollars, when they used to below 10?
I was big into trains as a young kid and had lot of newer (at the time) Bachmann stuff and second hand Tyco stuff from the 1970s, some of which survives. I remember prices then. Of course I could not afford it since I was a little kid, but it was reasonable to use a little of the Christmas or Birthday money from relatives to buy a few new cars and accessories, now it would be tough.
I quit caring about trains for a couple years then I actually got back into it for a while as a teenager. I subscribed to MR from 2003-2006. I had a rudimentary layout of mostly Atlas stuff. Now I got out of the hobby for seven years and recently resubscribed to MR. It is ridiculous how stuff has changed. I saw the start of the trend toward DCC and greater expense around ten years ago, now it is to the point where it is all ridiculously priced. There are also no more layouts that appeal to the small beginning modeler anymore. It is all focused on the latest and greatest and most advanced.
I actually bought some DCC equipped Bachmann stuff (the beginner DCC set) and got a good deal on it, but set back 200 or so. I was disappointed. I do admit there is some higher quality in the freight cars today, but I actually think it destroys some of the fun of the old. The new knuckle couplers, while more realistic, are also more fragile and can easily break. The engines I was saddened by. You can't control 2 engines at once, it is essentially the same as block operation without the need for extra wiring, still it makes little sense to spend that much for that. I intend to sell them and buy old DC stuff. I'd also like to do some kitbashing and painting, which I have never done before, but I would never want to damage such expensive equipment if I mess up. Interestingly enough, one area I have noticed a decline in quality is the handrails on my Geep are even flimsier than I remember from old models. I am back in school after dropping out to work for a few years so I don't have the money to continue on with the new models, unless I stuck with the very few I have now.
Buildings too, as somebody mentioned, have gone up in price. It seems like MR has moved away from the casual hobbyist and now everybody is trying to be George Sellios, Allen McClelland, and that level of quality. That is cool but I feel like the hobby now appeals to only the most hardcore, who are willing to spend thousands. There is something quaint about a classic loop on green carpet with plastic buildings. Fortunately there really are not that many focusing on vintage HO, it is niche and I think almost everybody serious about it is on this forum. It is not like pre and postwar Lionel in that sense. I literally can go to any train show and find tons of old HO stuff. Hobby shops have gone downhill by contrast.
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Posted - October 08 2013 : 07:46:47 AM
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quote: and last year I bought my wife a new ford. That car cost 10 times what my first new Ford cost in 1969. With that being said my earning power has only increased about 5 times.
Regards, John
Originally posted by JRG1951Â -Â June 20 2013Â :Â 10:07:16 AM
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I think that THIS is one of the big sticking points in life. Statistics have shown that while costs on everything have gone up ( and manufacturers are reducing quality to hold down costs ), overall earning power has declined. That explains quite a bit why we think things are more expensive. They ARE. And we're paid less than our parents were. some of this is probably due to retirement and health costs, which weren't as available 30-40 years ago, so didn't add more cost to employers. There's a price for everything. Unfortunately our hobby has/is taking a beating because people give up non-essentials first, and a hobby like this is not essential to living. Luckily there are still train shows and cheap HO used items for sale that help keep the costs down, but for the new stuff, you gotta suck it up and pay if you really like the newer stuff with sound.
Jerry
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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Posted - October 18 2013 : 06:36:54 AM
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I don't know why trading isn't more popular.
I have a bunch of new HO stuff that I bought years ago, 16 Athearn "Blue Box" Santa Fe diesels, many freight cars and also other brands of locos. AHM Heisler 3-truck CSRR, UP 0-4-0, Reno 4-4-0, Atlas SD-24 ATSF, Concor SW-7 with Revell body on Athearn frame in ATSF Zebra.
My interest in trains is now on N-scale because of space needed for curves of 12-wheel diesels.
Other interests are .22 handguns and rifles, Garden Tractors, Diecast 1/24th cars and many other things.
Seems to me someone in my area, Longwood, FL probably has something to trade.
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Country: USA ~
Posts: 20 ~
Member Since: October 12 2013 ~
Last Visit: June 28 2019
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