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 Posted - November 18 2013 : 4:48:55 PM
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| It's not that expensive but companies make these trains for dollars and they sell them for hundreds. But there are more expensive hobbies, such as fixing old cars or flying (real) airplanes.
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Posted - December 25 2013 : 10:29:45 PM
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Yes, the hobby is now too expensive. But, there are alternatives. For me, I like to run my trains not look at them, so superdetail isn't important to me. decent running characteristics and durability are. While I do have a few of the higher end locomotives, most of my newer stuff is Bachmann. They put out a decent product at a price I can afford, so, like athearn in the 1980s, they get most of my purchases. Track and buildings can be handmade for much cheaper than the cost of a kit.
Ironicly, as the cost of my model railroading has gone up, the costs for the other half of my hobby, railfanning, has plummeted. Consider that even the cheaper point and shoot cameras to-day can do more than the higher end 35mm film cameras were capable of. Plus, being digital, film costs that used to severely limit the amount of photos I took are now irrelevant. with a decent sized sd card I can go out to the tracks, shoot anything that moves, and still not put a dent in my storage capacity. and when I do finally run out of room, another sd card holding thousands of photos can be had for less than the cost of a 36 exposure roll of film and processing.
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 Posted - December 26 2013 : 11:58:51 AM
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yes I agree with you on both counts, jward
Thats why I go get used trains or free ones no one wants anymore 
But I do HATE it when model train clubs toss out ther DC stuffs!! 
That DOES make me mad!!!
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Posted - December 27 2013 : 09:13:18 AM
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| i have a firm policy,never buy new,ken
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Posted - February 19 2014 : 10:26:40 PM
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quote:I don't usually buy new products.
I buy at train shows. The hunt is part of the fun.
Originally posted by Ray Marinaccio - October 05 2012 : 01:29:05 AM
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I love finding the older stuff at the trains show too. That's one reason why I like the swap meets at train shows. You can get really cool stuff for really cheap. I have quite a few examples of that at my home.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
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Posted - February 19 2014 : 10:29:38 PM
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quote:Sadly its gotten way to expensive, model railroading is fast becomeing a rich mans hobby , i personally am planning on getting out of the hobby , because of the cost
Originally posted by conrailb23Â -Â October 05 2012Â :Â 01:41:44 AM
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This is exactly why model railroading is dying. It's not because kids are too busy playing video games or texting. It's because the prices are getting too high. The prices are discouraging people from getting into the hobby and instead they play trainz simulator because it's cheaper. (Nothing wrong with Trainz, I love it. Of course I also play with model trains.)
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
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Posted - February 19 2014 : 10:52:52 PM
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kovacste000 - Long as you can buy used or unwanted trains is a reason for me to stay in the hobby
Shame you didn't join up earlier I had a bunch of N scale stuffs that I sold
Edited by - microbusss on February 19 2014 10:53:14 PM
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Posted - February 20 2014 : 10:06:54 PM
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quote: Seriously, what do model railroad clubs have against DC? They're just fine. I have both DC and DCC and run them side by side. I don't mind any of them at all.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
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Posted - May 29 2014 : 09:49:45 AM
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quote:
This is exactly why model railroading is dying. It's not because kids are too busy playing video games or texting. It's because the prices are getting too high.
Originally posted by kovacste000Â -Â February 19 2014Â :Â 10:29:38 PM
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Two years later, incomes have stayed flat, and the $25 covered hopper is a $30 covered hopper, isn't it? MR is thin, and yet the train show is busier than ever.
I see a lot of young people buying train stuff there, old Tyco, AHM, Bachmann, Athearn BB stuff. I'm seeing that stuff also turn up, repainted and upgraded with Kadee couplers. They'll have one or two Bachmann locos with DCC, a handful of Silver Series cars or something comparable, and lots of secondhand train-show gear to bulk out the roster. I think this is the future of our hobby, and if MR wants to stay relevant and attract the content, it's an aspect they are going to have to acknowledge. They can't keep chasing a shrinking top-end that can afford to buy a fleet of 20 $200 diesels and 400 perfect $50 freight cars with the appropriate detail variations for Penn Central at 12 pm on August 4, 1975. That kind of modeling is wonderful in its own way. I admire the depth of research involved. It's very profitable for the manufacturers, who can make more money selling 1 $300 loco than 10 $30 ones. It's entirely irrelevant to the majority of potential readers in today's economic climate.
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Posted - May 29 2014 : 10:41:42 AM
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quote: quote:
This is exactly why model railroading is dying. It's not because kids are too busy playing video games or texting. It's because the prices are getting too high.
Originally posted by kovacste000Â -Â February 19 2014Â :Â 10:29:38 PM
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Two years later, incomes have stayed flat, and the $25 covered hopper is a $30 covered hopper, isn't it? MR is thin, and yet the train show is busier than ever.
I see a lot of young people buying train stuff there, old Tyco, AHM, Bachmann, Athearn BB stuff. I'm seeing that stuff also turn up, repainted and upgraded with Kadee couplers. They'll have one or two Bachmann locos with DCC, a handful of Silver Series cars or something comparable, and lots of secondhand train-show gear to bulk out the roster. I think this is the future of our hobby, and if MR wants to stay relevant and attract the content, it's an aspect they are going to have to acknowledge. They can't keep chasing a shrinking top-end that can afford to buy a fleet of 20 $200 diesels and 400 perfect $50 freight cars with the appropriate detail variations for Penn Central at 12 pm on August 4, 1975. That kind of modeling is wonderful in its own way. I admire the depth of research involved. It's very profitable for the manufacturers, who can make more money selling 1 $300 loco than 10 $30 ones. It's entirely irrelevant to the majority of potential readers in today's economic climate.
Originally posted by Autobus Prime - May 29 2014 : 09:49:45 AM
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That's pretty much how I feel. There does seem to be more kids at train shows buying older stuff. Heck, I saw one kid with a bag filled with old Bachmann and AHM stuff that he bought at that train show. I've realized that model railroading isn't dying just because kids are too into video games, I'm into video games and I'm not completely out of trains so I know this first hand, it's just modern stuff is ultra expensive. If they want to go realistic, they should do what Athearn did with Blue Box stuff. Add a bunch of nice details and great performance for a great price. A price that will get new modellers to want to get a train set or something. Instead, most, if not all model railroad companies of all scale are going the ultra expensive route. It'd be okay with a few ultra expensive ones but model railroading needs more in between manufacturers. One that fits the need for model trains for everyone like what they did 30, 40, 50 years ago. That's why more kids are going to train shows to buy their model railroad gear.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
Edited by - kovacste000 on May 29 2014 10:42:09 AM
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Posted - May 29 2014 : 11:14:08 AM
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When I was a young man an Athearn F7 Engine was about $20.00.
I paid $28.00 for my first AHM Train Set.
Christmas when I was 16, My mom bought me an AHM 2-8-4 for $39.95.
That was my Christmas for that year. When I was a young man I made
$1.60 an hour and gas was 30 cents a gallon.
You can Buy a Bachman GP35 for $70.00 list and around $50.00 online.
A Bachmann Train set with a F7 and 3 cars is $129.00 list and $70.00 online.
The newer Bachmann models are good quality, with parts support and service support.
Yes you can spend a lot, but new stuff can be had, you just have to be careful.
Regards John *********************
Tolerance it a tremendous virtue, but the immediate neighbors of tolerance are apathy and weakness. <> James Goldsmith
Edited by - JRG1951 on May 29 2014 11:15:49 AM
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Posted - May 29 2014 : 4:04:36 PM
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| I see both sides. I don't make any hobby shop purchases anymore other than details, glue, couplers, etc. because of price and preference. Most items now are much Improved over the past, but you are forced to pay for it. Plus, I wouldn't want to repaint or kitbash a $200 loco! The same is true, I think with automobiles--tried buying a car lately with an economy stick shift or manual windows? On the other hand, in the "old days" at $1.60 per hour, it took 12 hours of work to buy a $20 Athearn. At today's minimum of about $7, you could buy an 84 dollar loco for the same time.
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Posted - May 29 2014 : 5:33:27 PM
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quote:I see both sides. I don't make any hobby shop purchases anymore other than details, glue, couplers, etc. because of price and preference. Most items now are much Improved over the past, but you are forced to pay for it. Plus, I wouldn't want to repaint or kitbash a $200 loco! The same is true, I think with automobiles--tried buying a car lately with an economy stick shift or manual windows? On the other hand, in the "old days" at $1.60 per hour, it took 12 hours of work to buy a $20 Athearn. At today's minimum of about $7, you could buy an 84 dollar loco for the same time.
Originally posted by Adams - May 29 2014 : 4:04:36 PM
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Yes, things were cheaper in the olden days. But that's mostly because of inflation. But if you really look at the model railroad equipment of today, engines with the same amount of detail of an older locomotive costs as much as a higher end loco (Not brass!) of the 1960's and 1970's.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
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Posted - May 30 2014 : 01:39:09 AM
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quote:In the "old days" at $1.60 per hour, it took 12 hours of work to buy a $20 Athearn. At today's minimum of about $7, you could buy an 84 dollar loco for the same time.
Originally posted by Adams - May 29 2014 : 4:04:36 PM
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A:
The situation is actually a little more complex, I think, because the cost of model railroading has not increased in a linear fashion. Far from it. I own a lot of old magazines from the 1930s on up, and they provide a handy little hobbyshop window. From what I can tell, in inflation-adjusted dollars, a standard 'basket' of model railroading equipment actually decreased gradually in cost, post-WW2, possibly decreased more rapidly in real cost during the very inflationary period of the 1970s, reached a low trough spanning the early 1990s, before turning sharply upward in the last 20 years. Our perceptions of increasing cost have more to do, I think, with that very recent upturn than any comparison over the long term.
It's too late for amateur economics now, but I'll give a few specific examples tomorrow, as well as some of my pet theories, which I bring out for people to throw jumbo 3-dome tankcars at. ^_^
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Posted - May 30 2014 : 08:23:56 AM
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Here's my two cents' worth (adjusted for inflation, that's two bits):
1) In the golden age of inexpensive, models were more generic. This allowed massive economies of scale. It helps to spread tooling costs over millions of units. How many blue box Athearn 40-foot box cars are out there now? There was a time when the proverbial "everyone" had a Varney Dockside.
Recently, there has been a move toward prototype-specific modeling. For example, rather than owning the same Mantua Pacific all your friends have, you might buy an accurate reproduction of a NYC Pacific of a particular class or something of the sort. The tooling costs are spread across you and the other guy who wants that specific model.
2) The inexpensive stuff was fairly simple. Today's premium priced products have lots of separately applied parts and the people applying them have to eat, too. Do you want an engine with windshield wipers and every grab iron separately applied? Pony up the cash.
***
In short, model railroading is more expensive in real terms, because the most lucrative part of the market wants to do more expensive things and has the money to back it up. Those of us with simpler wants are underserved because we are not where the profits are for suppliers. We're probably a minority of the people in the hobby and we're certainly a minority of the dollar votes.
Carpe Manana!
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Posted - May 30 2014 : 09:46:41 AM
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quote:Here's my two cents' worth (adjusted for inflation, that's two bits):
1) In the golden age of inexpensive, models were more generic. This allowed massive economies of scale. It helps to spread tooling costs over millions of units. How many blue box Athearn 40-foot box cars are out there now? There was a time when the proverbial "everyone" had a Varney Dockside.
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This too is very interesting, and I want to dig into it after presenting some of my numbers. You're quite right. Some manufacturers, like Mantua, went to considerable efforts to make models generic, when they could easily have gone for a prototype. The Shifter, for instance, is basically a genericized PRR A5. This probably broadened its appeal (even though the A5's size alone made it a standout among 0-4-0 switchers). Indeed, after digging into some model railroading history, I think I have grasped a fundamental difference in attitudes.
I think many model manufacturers, in those days, saw themselves as legitimate suppliers of railroad equipment- just smaller...and modelers saw themselves as railroad executives...on a smaller scale. Buying a "Mantua Booster" wasn't breaking the prototype fourth wall by mentioning a toymaker's name. It was exercising a model-railroader's kayfabe by equating the manufacturer-modeler relationship to the relationship between, say, NYC and Alco. You can see it in the ad copy and the creative wording of the captions in Trackside Photos. "The latest product of the Varney works..."
It was a focus on the feeling of reality, as opposed to the appearance of realism.
Edited by - Autobus Prime on May 30 2014 09:48:22 AM
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Posted - May 30 2014 : 09:54:43 AM
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quote: quote:Here's my two cents' worth (adjusted for inflation, that's two bits):
1) In the golden age of inexpensive, models were more generic. This allowed massive economies of scale. It helps to spread tooling costs over millions of units. How many blue box Athearn 40-foot box cars are out there now? There was a time when the proverbial "everyone" had a Varney Dockside.
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This too is very interesting, and I want to dig into it after presenting some of my numbers. You're quite right. Some manufacturers, like Mantua, went to considerable efforts to make models generic, when they could easily have gone for a prototype. The Shifter, for instance, is basically a genericized PRR A5. This probably broadened its appeal (even though the A5's size alone made it a standout among 0-4-0 switchers). Indeed, after digging into some model railroading history, I think I have grasped a fundamental difference in attitudes.
I think many model manufacturers, in those days, saw themselves as legitimate suppliers of railroad equipment- just smaller...and modelers saw themselves as railroad executives...on a smaller scale. Buying a "Mantua Booster" wasn't breaking the prototype fourth wall by mentioning a toymaker's name. It was exercising a model-railroader's kayfabe by equating the manufacturer-modeler relationship to the relationship between, say, NYC and Alco. You can see it in the ad copy and the creative wording of the captions in Trackside Photos. "The latest product of the Varney works..."
It was a focus on the feeling of reality, as opposed to the appearance of realism.
Originally posted by Autobus Prime - May 30 2014 : 09:46:41 AM
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I've looked through some old model railroad catalogs from H0seeker and my own collection and they definitely seem to be advertising them as real locomotives almost. Like how they say their engines are reliable and giving all sorts of specs like as if it was a real loco.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
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Posted - May 30 2014 : 10:03:26 AM
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Don,
I agree with you in that the market has changed and we see very expensive models. The market for more individual, and detailed models have taken the fore front. In the 70's this market was smaller and this need was filled by Brass imports.
A $20.00 freight car is roughly equivalent to a 2.00 car in 70's money. So a $200.00 engine is roughly equivalent to a 20.00 Engine from the 70's. I miss the Athearn Blue Box products, but Bachmann has done a pretty good job of providing some products that are more down to earth in price.
I buy used models and it is rare for me to buy a new locomotive, but the fact is that the models have not increased in cost, the money is just not worth as much . When I was 10 I could buy a Baby Ruth candy bar for 5 cents, now they are $2.00 and smaller to boot.
Regards, John
Only government can take perfectly good paper, cover it with perfectly good ink and make the combination worthless. <> Milton Friedman
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Posted - May 30 2014 : 10:30:51 AM
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quote:A $20.00 freight car is roughly equivalent to a 2.00 car in 70's money.
Originally posted by JRG1951Â -Â May 30 2014Â :Â 10:03:26 AM
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There has been a lot of inflation since then, but not 10-fold. The average product is more expensive in real terms. It's not 10 times more expensive but maybe two or three times more. I think that if that $2 car were being built, today, and sold to the same sized market, it would probably be $10-$12.
I've looked at Consumer Price Index data and it has risen 8-fold since I was born in 1961. Admittedly, the CPI understates, but still the change is not all inflation.
You can compare hobby prices to your pay, over time, but the Standard of Living has doubled in my lifetime, adjusted for inflation. You can compare hobby prices to your car, but a loaded car in the 1970's is the stripped model now. It's hard to get an apples to apples comparison in most products and I maintain that that's true of model railroading as well.
Carpe Manana!
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Posted - May 30 2014 : 11:15:44 AM
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Don,
The CPI is a lie. Even if it was not a lie, the $20 engine would cost $180 and the $2 car would cost $18. You are right about the mass market, or production, The newer models are built with a new set of parts on each production run. The vendors often provide limited or no spare parts.
The Athearn models were made with many of the same parts that were improved over time. Bachmann has at least started using interchangeable parts and making parts available to customers. The rate of inflation in China will drive the prices even higher. The market is at the point that we could build in the USA and compete, I doubt we will.
Regards John **************
Hard times are real > There's dusty fields > No matter where you go > You may change your mind > Cause the weeds are high > Where corn don't grow -- Travis Tritt
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Posted - May 30 2014 : 6:01:46 PM
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quote:Don,
I agree with you in that the market has changed and we see very expensive models. The market for more individual, and detailed models have taken the fore front. In the 70's this market was smaller and this need was filled by Brass imports.
A $20.00 freight car is roughly equivalent to a 2.00 car in 70's money. So a $200.00 engine is roughly equivalent to a 20.00 Engine from the 70's. I miss the Athearn Blue Box products, but Bachmann has done a pretty good job of providing some products that are more down to earth in price.
I buy used models and it is rare for me to buy a new locomotive, but the fact is that the models have not increased in cost, the money is just not worth as much . When I was 10 I could buy a Baby Ruth candy bar for 5 cents, now they are $2.00 and smaller to boot.
Regards, John
Only government can take perfectly good paper, cover it with perfectly good ink and make the combination worthless. <> Milton Friedman
Originally posted by JRG1951Â -Â May 30 2014Â :Â 10:03:26 AM
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That's pretty much what's going on price wise. I totally agree with you.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
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Posted - May 31 2014 : 04:05:58 AM
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OK, now for some fun with numbers. First I'll use the Athearn geared F7. The geared F7 was a de facto standard for years.
In 1987, you could get an Athearn F7 for about $15-$20*. (I paid $26 at the LHS, in 1993 or so). That price range in '87 would equate to about $30-$40 today. The actual retail price of an Athearn ready-to-roll F7, today, is $80. Of course, you don't have to apply the swing hangers yourself. This eliminates the greatest opportunity most of us will ever encounter to wonder just what exactly a swing hanger is.
*(Available from SHS mail-order for $12, equivalent to $24 today, if you let them substitute roadnames)
(I do in fact know what a swing hanger is, now that I work at a place which has 1:1 locomotive trucks scattered about. But I sure wondered about it in 1993 ^_^)
So clearly there has been an increase since 1987, coupled with the elimination of some very, very minor assembly (which was left out of the 1987 version largely because Irv Athearn was an accountant and putting the tiny, easily broken detail parts on incurred costs out of proportion to the perceived benefit of full assembly.) But what is really interesting is the situation before that, because the Athearn geared F7 was nominally priced in the $15-$20 range in 1960 and 1978 as well! (Adjusted costs: 1960, $120-160; 1978, $50-$70, in 2014 dollars)
Holding the price steady while inflation occurs means that the real cost drops gradually, when inflation is gradual, and sharply, when inflation is rapid (as in the 1970-1980 period). This seems to be a classic case of the situation I proposed earlier, where real cost dropped over the years, reached a low point in the early 90s, and ramped up since then.
What does this remind me of? The Ford model T. The Athearn geared F7 was rugged, reliable, and popular. Irv Athearn wanted to be the Ford of model railroading, supplying most of the market with the same product for a long time, and he pursued efficiency. Costs went down, but sales went up as model railroading's popularity grew. But after the 90s, as Don mentioned, the market changed. The business model that had kept costs down went by the wayside, and the costs began to grow.
There was a further factor at work, in pushing this change. It's late again, so I think I will bring that up in my next post, covering the strange case of the brass locomotive. :)
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Posted - May 31 2014 : 07:34:35 AM
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Good point about the timing, Autobus. Model railroad prices did hold the line through the worst period of inflation, only to jump later. I got my Athearn F7's in the 1990's, brand new, for $19.95 each (at an air show of all places). Then, while general inflation was low, model train prices shot up.
To some extent, I blame the greater sophistication of the product, but there's more to it than that. Used stuff has also shot up, probably driven by increasing demand by people who don't want to pay premium prices for premium products. I think there's similar price pressure on brand new products that have not changed, such as Atlas snap track.
We on this forum are the last of the cheapskates trying to make do in a gentrified hobby. 
Carpe Manana!
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Posted - August 31 2015 : 3:07:19 PM
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itlf is new and on sale for a good price I buy but I mostly buy used trains that r orphaned by people who dont wantt them and drop them for low prices it a win for me and what ever I buy because it is not being trown away
devin "give me the ugly steam none of that streamlined stuff"
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Posted - September 27 2015 : 5:45:24 PM
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Model trains have DEFINITELY become TOO (NOT "to") expensive!!!
Manufacturers are now more BUSINESS and less HOBBY!!! [:(]
Combine that with outsourcing, NAFTA, EPA overregulation - and the young Executives have pushed the RTR market to the sad, grossly overpriced levels you see today!
Carmine - CEO, Engineer, and Chief Bottle Washer
Pacific Belt RR, in HO Scale, Since 1975! 
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Posted - September 27 2015 : 6:07:37 PM
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quote:OK, now for some fun with numbers. First I'll use the Athearn geared F7. The geared F7 was a de facto standard for years.
In 1987, you could get an Athearn F7 for about $15-$20*. (I paid $26 at the LHS, in 1993 or so). That price range in '87 would equate to about $30-$40 today. The actual retail price of an Athearn ready-to-roll F7, today, is $80. Of course, you don't have to apply the swing hangers yourself.......
Originally posted by Autobus Prime - May 31 2014 : 04:05:58 AM
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Interesting thread. Glad you resurrected it pacbelt.
I have kept an unofficial, half-serious eye on Athearn F7 prices on ebay - to see if it could be used as a barometer for the hobby in general. I'd say that for the past 5 years they have held fairly steady. There are high and low exceptions, but they average around $20-25 for an unpowered dummy and $25-30 for a powered unit. Granted these are used BB units, not new RTR ones. But honestly, there's not a lot of difference. Athearn has freshened up the detailing on the shells and such but nothing a modeler couldn't do himself.
The real kick in the pants for diesels is when they start adding DCC and sound.
And to me, the most intimidating market is new steam locos. Not in my lifetime! I will stay in the used IHC steam loco market.
http://tycodepot.com/
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Posted - September 28 2015 : 12:07:46 AM
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quote: quote:OK, now for some fun with numbers. First I'll use the Athearn geared F7. The geared F7 was a de facto standard for years.
In 1987, you could get an Athearn F7 for about $15-$20*. (I paid $26 at the LHS, in 1993 or so). That price range in '87 would equate to about $30-$40 today. The actual retail price of an Athearn ready-to-roll F7, today, is $80. Of course, you don't have to apply the swing hangers yourself.......
Originally posted by Autobus Prime - May 31 2014 : 04:05:58 AM
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Interesting thread. Glad you resurrected it pacbelt.
I have kept an unofficial, half-serious eye on Athearn F7 prices on ebay - to see if it could be used as a barometer for the hobby in general. I'd say that for the past 5 years they have held fairly steady. There are high and low exceptions, but they average around $20-25 for an unpowered dummy and $25-30 for a powered unit. Granted these are used BB units, not new RTR ones. But honestly, there's not a lot of difference. Athearn has freshened up the detailing on the shells and such but nothing a modeler couldn't do himself.
The real kick in the pants for diesels is when they start adding DCC and sound.
And to me, the most intimidating market is new steam locos. Not in my lifetime! I will stay in the used IHC steam loco market.
Originally posted by JNXT 7707Â -Â September 27 2015Â :Â 6:07:37 PM
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 Although they make a lot of pretty sweet looking steam engines nowadays, they're quite pricey.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
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Posted - September 28 2015 : 12:27:38 AM
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Funny, I do the same...
I've used the Atlas TT as my "barometer", as well as a few other long running products.
The Atlas TT debuted in 1964, for $3.95.
I bought my first one in 1980, for $6.99.
I bought another in 1996 (for a future bash project), for $9.95....
I've seen them on EvilBay lately - for $25.00 and UP!!
(OH, and of COURSE they call them "rare", and "classic"!  
Carmine - CEO, Engineer, and Chief Bottle Washer
Pacific Belt RR, in HO Scale, Since 1975!
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Posted - February 22 2016 : 12:42:25 AM
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| Yep, even resellers are getting too expensive. People say "USED BLUE BOX IS CHEAP AND GOOD" bitch where?
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Posted - February 22 2016 : 9:57:42 PM
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Well, I pretty much stick to Tyco that I buy under $5. My British OO
is my guilty pleasure, but I rarely buy a damn thing. In fact, much of
track work is spliced in with old pieces of Atlas where I can do it without
fouling the flanges of the OO.
I've posted TONS of stuff, Athearn Blue Box, vintage Red Ball, Varney,
even NIB Proto 2000 at rock bottom
bargain basement prices from several sources. But
RARELY has anyone shown even a faint interest. So
I stopped doing it.
My view remains: kids like video games. Model trains
require too much space, intelligence, creativity, and
persistence. Why spend $ on a hobby like this when
you can play "Angry Birds" on your phone??
Edited by - Chops124 on February 22 2016 10:02:03 PM
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Posted - February 22 2016 : 11:19:31 PM
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At our house cost isn't an issue but I set up a small train set on a table top for my boy who is now 16. At Christmas he got a second small set and put it on his table. He has his drivers license now and I don't think he has looked at it since. As chops said, he hasn't put down his telephone for months unless he's got his tablet in his hands or his Xbox games on his TV... I believe it's an interest loss and not so much as costs for some. 
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Posted - February 23 2016 : 05:19:45 AM
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It's more expensive for me now that I live on Prince Edward Island. When I lived in Ontario there were more resources for model trains (hobby shops and train shows). Where I live now there is one hobby shop and they only really cater to the RC plane crowd. There aren't any train shows so I have to travel off island ($40 to cross the bridge or $75 for the ferry). Pretty much everything I have now I have had to purchase online. Thank goodness we have that or I'd be stuck! On the other hand I love antique cars and being into model trains is a much cheaper hobby than old cars!
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Posted - May 06 2016 : 1:08:41 PM
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It seems that everytime that I come back to this thread, I have a diffrent opinion. I stil think that the hobby is flexible enough to cater to all groups, thus I think the prices are just about right. I mean the way I look at it, Yuo can get athearn RTR cars for about 20 bucks. Blue box cars were usually about 10. Not only did you have to build them, you also had to detail them and paint them if that is what you so desired. For 20 bucks, you get a car you can run right out of the box, looks great and you don't have to detail. Besides, everything has gone up in price so basically Price is mostly a wash. We can't expect prices to stay the same all the time.
If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right.
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Posted - May 06 2016 : 1:42:55 PM
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Except purchasing power hasn't caught up with price, and we've lost the cheaper offerings that used to be present both as kit and RTR. Tyco got gobbled by Mattel and reduced to just its RC car line, Bachmann and Athearn stopped offering cheap stuff (Athearn in fact decided it would just glue its Blue Box rolling stock together in advance, give it metal wheels, and charge more than twice what the Blue Box kits cost, grumble grumble) Roundhouse got turned into an expensive brand... As someone who joined the hobby after 2000, if not for old stock and the secondary market I'd have a hard time having trains to run at all.
Feedback-hungry attention w****
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Posted - May 06 2016 : 3:12:05 PM
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I get caught up in the wailing about the Good Old Days just like everyone else, until I use an inflation calculator and enter current prices on things. You'll find that prices these days are relatively comparable to those that we yearn for. As for your personal buying power, that is not the fault of the hobby industry.
http://tycodepot.com/
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Posted - May 06 2016 : 4:30:24 PM
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The hobby has become more expensive. But then again, we have moved on from the 1970s/80s Tyco/Life-Like quality.
Modern locos no longer come with pancake motors, plastic wheels (or insulated/unpowered/electrically-dead metal wheels such as Lima), traction tires, pizza-cutter flanges, non-driven wheels for pickup only, horn hooks and crude details such as steps and handrails which are a scale two feet thick. They also don't do a scale 200mph the instant power is applied (or sit there doing nothing until you tap the loco). Additionally, just about everything these days is either DCC-equipped or DCC-ready.
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Posted - May 06 2016 : 4:56:01 PM
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quote:My view remains: kids like video games. Model trains
require too much space, intelligence, creativity, and
persistence. Why spend $ on a hobby like this when
you can play "Angry Birds" on your phone??
Originally posted by Chops124Â -Â February 22 2016Â :Â 9:57:42 PM
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Kids also liked video games 40 years ago - speaking of which, the Atari 2600 turns 40 next year.
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Posted - May 06 2016 : 5:27:09 PM
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Well Heihatchi, most of what you said is exactly the problem. Nobody in the US offers cheaper, lower-tech versions of locos for those with tighter budgets (unlike Hornby's Railroad range in the UK). The rest is just down to evolutions in technology. Well, aside from one remark that shows you only pay attention to diesel models.
In some cases it's the same with rolling stock. But the higher price is just plain egregious in the case of a lot of Bachmann's and Athearn's offerings, most of which are the same old toolings as ever with the only major differences being metal wheels rather than plastic, and operating knuckle couplers instead of pseudo-knuckle horn-hooks.
Feedback-hungry attention w****
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Posted - May 06 2016 : 6:22:08 PM
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Well I doubt I have bought any locomotive or rolling stock new from the LHS for a long time now. I use them mostly for parts, and even that is fading fast because most times I can find the part I want on ebay for less or about the same when you add in the shipping.
If you are wanting the older low-tech stuff you will find it by the boxful at train shows and listed ad infinitum on ebay. And there are deals to be had at train shows, along with some pretty unique items you won't find at the LHS again.
So yes if you are on a budget, you can still enjoy this hobby as much as anyone, it just takes some resourcefulness, some modeling skills and good timing.
http://tycodepot.com/
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Posted - May 06 2016 : 9:23:38 PM
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It may well be that the video game generation would like trains if introduced to them at the right age and the right price, but we'll never know.
As things stand, I can go to train shows and find the level of technology I prefer and choose to afford. I think, though, of my beginning in the hobby with a train set my dad got us kids for Christmas, I think from the local hobby shop.
I think of my friend across the street getting trainsets that apparently came from a department store such as Sears. People my age will remember thick Christmas catalogs from the major stores, each with a few pages of trains.
In contrast to those times, I just don't see a parent paying Genesis or MTH prices on speculation that the kids might like them. If most kids are to have a train at some point in childhood, the stakes must be lower.
I can't imagine my dad, during my childhood, navigating his way through ebay or the usual mail order sources or knowing about train shows and what to actually buy there. The neighbors who got the department store sets probably would have fared little better.
The bar to entry is high, partly due to price and partly due to a lower public profile for the product (possibly partly related to price). We who are already in are okay, but I don't see a way in for the masses.
Carpe Manana!
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Posted - May 06 2016 : 10:08:43 PM
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scashaggy, that's the kind of thing I'm getting at. I was able to find a trainset online at a discounted price to link my parents to. I lucked out on that.
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Posted - May 06 2016 : 10:28:53 PM
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Those trainsets of Christmas mornings have been replaced by Thomas the Train now, in varying degrees of cost and complexity. And every kid that I have known has been crazy about trains of any kind. So there is definitely a market.
I dunno, I still see relatively low-tech Bachmann sets at the LHS. And I think Bachmann has some sets for younger kids too, I think battery powered? If the kid loves Thomas and he's getting older, why not the Bachmann for Christmas?
But no, I don't think any parent with a lick of sense would plunk down cash for a Genesis or MTH set. Not only is the price exorbitant but they would break at the first grab!
http://tycodepot.com/
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Posted - May 07 2016 : 02:43:32 AM
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quote:| Well, aside from one remark that shows you only pay attention to diesel models. |
Got me there! Well, even with steam I've seen some pretty ordinary models; in my collection I have a Hornby 0-4-0 tank engine (36 "Roger") which is also off like a rocket unless it's "crawling" at around 3V (at scale 30mph of course), but then it stalls just about anywhere unless both the track and wheels are completely spotless, and can barely pull the three tiny four-wheeled freight cars it came with in the train set without spinning the wheels (OK, I lie a bit, it starts to slip with about six cars). While it has a can motor and no traction tires, it has almost no weight either - even after adding weight it still only weighs 90 grams (3oz). On my one, I also had to get the driving cog replaced as the original disintegrated into white dust within a week of buying it back in 1996 (maybe this set was new old stock sitting there for 20+ years, who knows, but the replacement cog is still fine to this day).
I also have a Lima 0-6-0 tender drive (LMS 4683; it's actually HO rather than 1:76 OO despite being a UK prototype), which is also severely underweight, and has the same electrical pickup design as your average Tyco diesel. Like the Hornby, it will also slip the wheels with only half a dozen freight cars even though it has traction tires, although the tires are probably the original ones from the 70s or whenever this loco was made, they don't seem to be made of rubber (they are not black either, they are clear/white), but a hard plastic-like material. This has also had some weight added but still weighs under 200 grams (there is almost no room to add weight inside the tender as the pancake motor takes up most of the space). Both locos also wobble all over the place. The only modification I have done to this one besides adding weight was swapping out the Lima loop couplers with Kadee #5s, and bending the trip pins slightly so they don't hit the rail when going through turnouts.
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Posted - May 18 2016 : 12:08:49 PM
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quote:Except purchasing power hasn't caught up with price, and we've lost the cheaper offerings that used to be present both as kit and RTR. Tyco got gobbled by Mattel and reduced to just its RC car line, Bachmann and Athearn stopped offering cheap stuff (Athearn in fact decided it would just glue its Blue Box rolling stock together in advance, give it metal wheels, and charge more than twice what the Blue Box kits cost, grumble grumble) Roundhouse got turned into an expensive brand... As someone who joined the hobby after 2000, if not for old stock and the secondary market I'd have a hard time having trains to run at all.
Originally posted by ZeldaTheSwordsman - May 06 2016 : 1:42:55 PM
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I think you are grosly undestating the benefits of the RTR line. Alot of the cars have better detail, are painted to match the body, have better graphics and paint and alot have eliminated the molded on grab irons in favor of wire. I have plenty of models from this line and that are flat out amazing.
If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right.
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Posted - May 18 2016 : 5:11:17 PM
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quote:i have a firm policy,never buy new,ken
Originally posted by catfordken - December 27 2013 : 09:13:18 AM
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I am defiantly thinking the same as Ken. I love my old trains.
frank
toptrain
" It's a Heck of a Day " !!!
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