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 Posted - January 15 2012 : 11:16:55 PM
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In 2007 my dad gave me his collection of vintage tyco and mantua trains. One of the engines was a 60s mantua 0-4-0 with a tender "shifter". I've been "on off" rebuilding the engine for 4 years, but this year i knew i wanted to do all the major work. Last year i repainted the boiler, frame, cylinders, and tender. I also replaced the old worn out motor with a better in shape mantua 4-6-0 motor. I hooked up the wire that runs from the motor to the tender up to the tender frame and when the engien responded i found that the running gear was in terrible shape, the wheels would turn over once then lock up and when i turned it upside down and noticed the wheel axles were spread apart and out of sync. the wheels would not turn over again unless reversed which would still do the lock up once more. So my question is, is it a wheel problem or a rod problem, im not done with the restoration but i will try and post a photo
I buy, repair, and collect
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http://www.youtube.com/user/TheDeputation?feature=watch
Hyde.
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Posted - January 16 2012 : 3:18:05 PM
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It sounds like a set of wheels may be out of quarter, but it's hard to say for certain without photos.
If you look at the counterweights on the loco wheels, on any side of the loco they should all be oriented the same way. On the other side of the loco, the counterweights would be positioned about 90 degrees ("quartered") counter. It's kind of hard to install the drive rods, etc if this is not the case, but a wheel even just slightly out of tune can cause your problem.
If yours is equipped with valve gear, disconnect that and troubleshoot it with rods only. Simplify the system and verify things work, then chase the problem downstream...
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Posted - January 16 2012 : 3:37:42 PM
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I'm having trouble uploading photos... Thank you very much for your reply, Im already getting a new tender frame so looks like im adding drive wheel assembly to the list. it doesn't have valve gear.
I buy, repair, and collect
http://scvr.weebly.com/
http://seyboldlocomotiveworks.weebly.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheDeputation?feature=watch
Hyde.
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Posted - January 17 2012 : 2:10:47 PM
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Valve gear for the smaller Mantuas was an optional add-on accessory kit and not commonly done, so the lack is not surprising. Still, you never know without seeing / asking...
You might also try loosening the motor from the frame, ever so slightly. I have seen worn gears and such bind if the mesh is too tight; sometimes a slight adjustment is all it takes to get things moving free again. That might actually be a more likely issue than the driver quartering, come to think of it.
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Posted - January 17 2012 : 9:56:04 PM
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I'm going with Tony's first suggestion about being out of quarter. He said he replaced the 'old, worn out motor'. If the motor is worn out, the siderods are very likely worn, causing an "out of quarter" problem. The wheels locking up and then will work in reverse and lock up again, those rods are worn out. Also, SCV, you said the axles were spread apart??? Whatever bearings are in the frame may be worn or missing. I"m not familiar with the Shifter. I have put replacement bearings in the 0-4-0 Booster, got the parts from Yardbird trains.
Loosening the motor to check for binding in the gears, like Tony said, is a good idea, anyway. Sometimes a shim under the motor, of just a few thousandths inch thick is necessary.
I really like steam locomotives but, the models take a lot of care and maintenance just like the prototypes.
Unspoken expectations are premeditated failures.
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Posted - January 18 2012 : 01:23:23 AM
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I already rebuilt the old motor I just have to Sauter the wire back on, and it's gotta be the wheels/rods. I'm already getting a new tender frame for it so looks like I'm adding a set if wheels and rods, no worries. The engine is in "kit" form now until I get the parts I need but thanks for telling me all I need
I buy, repair, and collect
http://scvr.weebly.com/
http://seyboldlocomotiveworks.weebly.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheDeputation?feature=watch
Hyde.
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Posted - January 18 2012 : 2:25:20 PM
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Actually, to be clear, I don't mean the motor itself is necessarily the problem (though it could be), but rather how it is mounted to the frame. If it is too "tight" or just not in the right place, you can have this problem. Imagine if the driving gear was worn slightly out of round, or the worm shaft not straight.
It is easy to check this. Just loosen the mounting screw a hair or two, and/or move the motor forward or back slightly. Sometimes a shim like NCShorlines suggested does the trick. It usually doesn't take much, and you might be surprised at the difference.
For the cost (nothing) and time (minute or two) to check, it just might spare you a lot of hassle, and is a typical adjustment for pittman-motor drives regardless of maker or condition.
Edited by - spiderj76 on January 18 2012 2:29:12 PM
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Posted - January 18 2012 : 8:25:27 PM
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I made a slight technical error with my diagnosis. Quarter is the relationship between the two wheels on the same axle. That being: the crankpins (an easy reference point) are 90 degrees apart in relation to each other. (As Tony said in his first post).
The worn rods causing problems between the two driver axles or however many on a loco, is
a synchronization problem.
Nomenclature is half the battle with this rebuild work.
Have you contacted Dan at Yardbird trains? Check out his website, you might find some useful information there. Also, HO Seeker. The link is at the bottom of the Forum Index page.
Sounds like a fun project you have. Hope you can upload some photos, soon.
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Posted - January 18 2012 : 9:58:31 PM
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you guys have the best advice but usualy if i have engines that need repair and if its better to get a new part so it'll last then thats what i'll do, simple as finding mantua 0-4-0 parts on ebay, ive seen plenty go bye time to time
I buy, repair, and collect
http://scvr.weebly.com/
http://seyboldlocomotiveworks.weebly.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheDeputation?feature=watch
Hyde.
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Posted - January 19 2012 : 5:42:09 PM
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I have to agree with Tony somewhat, however it could be worn out bearings. I see this being a more likely cause since it is a wear part. So often, people run their trains without oiling them, destroying the bearings. Try running your car without it and see how far you go. If the axles are out of alignment, this could also be the problem. Likewise... If the drive rod mounting holes have been widened due to use without oiling, this will also misalign everything. If I could see some photos, I might be able to better asses the situation. It could be a combination of everything.
If you can, remove one screw from one of the rods and then see if the remaining mounted side and the attached rod have any play between themselves. Give the rod a tug back and forth to see if it moves. It should not as there should be nearly no play here. If you do not remove the screw, you can also try to just gently roll the wheels back and forth a little with your thumb. If the un-geared set of wheels rotates more than a few milometers then you might have too much play in these holes.
To check the bearings, try applying a little twisting action to the wheel set. (Best if done when the rods are removed). If they twist and feel somewhat loose, then the bearings should be replaced. This will greatly improve performance on so many levels. Dan Bush at yardbirdtrains sells these for a couple of $$.
http://yardbirdtrains.com/
Good luck and keep us informed on how it goes...
Sean
"If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti!
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Posted - February 17 2012 : 1:20:21 PM
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Well for right now she's in pieces awaiting work by me, got other things to do
I buy, repair, and collect
http://scvr.weebly.com/
http://seyboldlocomotiveworks.weebly.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheDeputation?feature=watch
Hyde.
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