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jlong
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 Posted - October 04 2006 : 10:37:09 PM
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Can anyone tell me how brown box era steam engine kits compare to the old Mantua versions? How are the motors and gear trains? Fit and finish, etc? Do they include decals? It seems they are more plentiful on ebay. Complete and unbuilt. Any precautions you can think of when bidding?Are parts interchangeable with Mantua?
John Long
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Posted - October 04 2006 : 11:21:29 PM
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John:
Last one I built was a little six. It was pretty-well indistinguishable from the old Mantua/Tyco offerings from the blue and red box days. Fit, finish and operation were quite good.
I can't say I've used the Pacific and Mikado kits as anything more than a core for reworks using Cary, Mellor, Cal-Scale parts and so on, but they, too, seem to pretty well resemble all the post-enclosed drive Pacifics and Mikes. Those very early engines still fetch pretty steep prices because of their operating characteristics, tractive ability and reliability. Aside from the housed drive, their more obvious differences are cast pilot, tender and cab.
Still, I very much recommend the later kits as well. They're not slouches by any comparitive measure.
MagAc
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Posted - October 05 2006 : 12:28:58 AM
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Thanks for the topic (Jlong) and reply (MagAc). This is something I too have always wondered. My PT 0-6-0 was junk, yet I've often found myself gazing at those kits, debating taking the plunge. My uncle once gave me an old and abused Mantua Pacific... it didn't run at all but the heft of that metal boiler still wieghs on me (ouch, pun!).
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Posted - October 05 2006 : 09:54:44 AM
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Tycoots:
I'd consider taking the plunge on big Mantua/Tyco steamers sooner than later. They seem to be gaining considerably more attention than they used to on the net auction sites. Get examples while they're still relatively inexpensive. Go after kits if you feel like doing the build-up. Personally, as I suspect most of you are "collectors", I'd shoot for nice basic-black ready to run examples with decorated liveries (the kits are all undecorated).
Two are pretty easy: Sante Fe and Union Pacific. They WILL have variations in cab number, however (thought the vast majority will be the ubiquitous "4073".)
Pennsylvania and A.T.S.F. are tougher.
B&O black and C&O are aggressively sought.
Also recommend buying the semi-vanderbilt tenders (Mantua offering) if you stumble on them. They are eagerly snapped up these days by rebuilders and are fetching good prices.
Should you stumble on one of the old models (Mantua 71 motor coupled to enclosed Si-Lo-Matic drive) just buy the darned thing if its reasonable. They are Tyco's Cadillacs and you won't regret it.
MagAc
ps: a really nice kit steamer is the early run of the 1890s 4-6-0, and relatively scarce compared to the kazillion ready-to-run ATSF and WARR.
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jlong
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Posted - October 05 2006 : 1:54:36 PM
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Magnolia, thanks. That's good to know.
John Long
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Posted - October 05 2006 : 5:19:48 PM
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Re: the Pacifics and Mikes:
Forgot to mention thebig die-cast steamers sporting long haul tenders decorated as "TYCO." They can be real sleepers: good drives and motors, excellent quality control, excellent materials. They date from the Little Trains and blue box era and, needless to say, are not commonly encountered. Many survive rather neglected and unnoticed in the roundhouses of old-timers embarrassed by that big honkin' "TYCO" logo spanning the tender.
Frankly, it is the closest John Tyler and Co. parrallel to their big cousins in the orange boxes... you know: "Lionel Lines." And the shameless self promotion, to me, makes them all the more charming and significant.
The Pacific, Mike, Shifter, Little Six and even the RF-16 diecast shark were available in "TYCO" livery...
MagAc
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jlong
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Posted - October 05 2006 : 7:44:27 PM
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quote:Many survive rather neglected and unnoticed in the roundhouses of old-timers embarrassed by that big honkin' "TYCO" logo spanning the tender.
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Now that Tyco Lines is a fallen flags railroad, it is getting much respect. I grew up in the Pacific Northwest when the GN was repainting equipment in big sky blue colors. I recall very well how railfans were outraged over the defacing of GN equipment with such a crapola scheme. Later it was all painted over again with green and black (BN). This spurred more raging protests amongst NP and SP&S fans as well as GN fans. Same goes for Amtrack repainting NP mainstreeter and GN empire builder equipment. Nowadays, GN big sky blue, BN, and Amtrack schemes are respected.
John Long
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Posted - October 05 2006 : 7:58:50 PM
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quote:| Now that Tyco Lines is a fallen flags railroad, it is getting much respect. I grew up in the Pacific Northwest when the GN was repainting equipment in big sky blue colors. I recall very well how railfans were outraged over the defacing of GN equipment with such a crapola scheme. Later it was all painted over again with green and black (BN). This spurred more raging protests amongst NP and SP&S fans as well as GN fans. Same goes for Amtrack repainting NP mainstreeter and GN empire builder equipment. Nowadays, GN big sky blue, BN, and Amtrack schemes are respected. Originally posted by jlong - October 05 2006 : 11:44:27 PM
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Coulda been worse... they could have been CSX. Chessie, Seaboard and all those great predecessor schemes squandered for "stealth" and alphabet soup. Nobody will miss that... they even got rid of their one paint scheme that was nice ("Bright Future") and went back to... bleah.
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jlong
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Posted - October 05 2006 : 9:07:53 PM
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Magnolia,
I'm foaming at the mouth after reading your post again. I looked at the Cal Scale/Bowser detail part pages in the Bowser site. Elesco feedwater heater, armorflex piping, Pyle headlight with visor and numberboards, Compressor stuff to hang off the side. Shoot it all with hot rod primer black. Oughta make on bitchin Mikado. Oh yea, semi Vanderbuilt tenders are cool. But I want a full vanderbuilt long haul tender......er no wait...Harriman. SP style. I can't think of who makes or made them at the moment. I don't care how unprototypical this bash will be. This is artist liscence funk.
Circle Z,
On CSX. I was saddened by that. In the late 60's I watched C&O E units roar by while working summer jobs for my uncle in Upper Sandusky Ohio (he had a small brakehose factory next to the mainline) The blue and yellow scheme was awesome.
John Long
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Posted - October 05 2006 : 10:35:37 PM
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John:
The tender was only floated as a suggestion of Mantua/Tyco products. The choices are endless.
My current DMIR Mike conversion involves a MAJOR boiler rework of the old Mantua boiler, as the all-weather cab kit I employed was specifically designed to fit the Mantua boiler (everything else about the darned boiler is pretty much wrong for DMIR.) I've added a ton of Cal-Scale, more appropriate valve gear (for DMIR--but the Mantua gear as supplied is really quite nice for many other conversions) by Mellor. I'm reworking an old (heck, ancient) Varney tender and adding detail. The Mantua/Tyco boilers and frames really make excellent beds for your creative building impulses. Cary also used to make boilers for Mantua frames. I did a Cary conversion several years ago. It worked out quite well. (Haven't seen a Cary catalog for a while; don't know what they still offer in the way of conversion boilers these days.)
MagAc
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jlong
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Posted - October 05 2006 : 11:03:53 PM
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quote:John:
The tender was only floated as a suggestion of Mantua/Tyco products. |
Dang!!! I looked on ebay to see what you mean and found a Tyco vandy tender. Exactly what I had in mind. Bid is in.
http://cgi.ebay.com/HO-older-mantua-vandy-tender-w-6-wheel-trucks-real-nice_W0QQitemZ300035698019QQihZ020QQcategoryZ484QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
John Long
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Posted - October 06 2006 : 3:44:59 PM
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John:
In your zeal to acquire the big Mantua Tyco steamers. don't overlook representative examples of the small RTRs and kits. Particularly, keep an eye out for the smoke-equipped 4-4-0s, bix sixes and shifters. It is hard to tell on 'net auctions unless the seller specifies but the smokers are pretty obvious when your looking at a swap or train show. The smokers are rather thin on the ground and can be grabbed by the unaware (just like twin-power EMDs, many are unfamiliar with the Tyco engine variations and view them as "all the same.")
Which reminds me... don't forget to add a 6096 Marx Hudson to your list: clubby, clunky, ugly, bereft of detail--yet, despite those epithets, all in all a reliable, powerful, super-smoke-producing die-cast American-made HO steamer... as you well know.
MagAc
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jlong
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Posted - October 06 2006 : 8:26:46 PM
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quote:Which reminds me... don't forget to add a 6096 Marx Hudson to your list: clubby, clunky, ugly, bereft of detail--yet, despite those epithets, all in all a reliable, powerful, super-smoke-producing die-cast American-made HO steamer... as you well know.
MagAc |
Thanks for the tip on a smoker. Yes, a butt ugly beautiful Marx Hudson is on my list.
Bidding on a tender first may seem bass ackwards but that vandy tender in the auction is just bitchin and looks harder to find than a mike to pull it. Did you look at the tender in the auction? Is it truely Tyco? It looks similar to the Varneys I seen but the trucks look Tyco. If it isn't, I don't care. it's still bitchin.
John Long
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Posted - October 06 2006 : 11:36:58 PM
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John:
The tender is a Mantua #712 undecorated Vandy. When the Tylers resurrected the Mantua name post 1978 they aggressively pursued the serious modeller. The first "Mantua" ads (March, 1978, and later in MR) were focussed on pitching the ancient steamers (4-4-0 and 4-6-0) and attendant "antique" cars as they'd assessed definite demand.
The resurrected aluminum streamliners and other demand-driven offerings like the Vandy tender soon followed. I bought one of the old orange-box 712s in Northern Pacific in the early 1980s for a conversion build-up, so I remember them well. They weren't common then and aren't encountered often now, so your decision to bid "tender first" makes sense to me.
Regarding the Marx/Allstate Hudson: aside from the too-small tender their proportions are really pretty good. Mechanically, they are built in the great LUMAR tradition of "simpler is better." It often is--they are reliable and easy to maintain and repair. They look awesome pulling rakes of either the rare Marx tin Santa Fe streamliners or the Herkimer Shorties in NYC. (The 6096 is a bit tough to find in SF, though. Most were NYC.)
MagAc
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jlong
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Posted - October 07 2006 : 10:52:09 AM
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Magnolia, I've looked at Marx hudsons on ebay and the proportions are quite good from the boiler face to tender ass. I snoozed on one of them that was advertised to run and smoke. Someone got it for like $25.00 or something.
I do have an S gauge American Flyer 336 Challenger (FEF) with smoke and choo choo. I run it on the floor twice a year and it is one major engine to watch let me tell you.
Is the Tyco tender in the ebay link a late 70's model? Just curious for the sake of knowing. Hard to tell what the prototype is. It looks like a crossbreed between an SP/UP and B&O vanderbuilt.
John Long
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Posted - October 08 2006 : 2:16:43 PM
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John:
Yeah, the one in the pic is the Mantua release #712 Vandy tender--they were sold in the early run orange Mantua boxes post-78. I don't remember when I did my NP build-up but it was probably around 1980. Now, being sans box, it could be a refugee from a RTR engine/tender offering but--as it is undecorated and appears untampered with--its probably a #712 separate.
Marx and Allstate HO are sometimes best acquired at the small club-sponsored model railroad shows and swaps. Legion are the old di-hard scale modelers for whom "Marx" and "Toy Train" are dirty words (in HO scale, that is--we're not, evidently, entitled to the "tinplate" apellation that makes Flyer and Lionel acceptable.)
Am envious of your Flyer Northern. Mine were surrendered to sale some years back as they were far too heavy to run on my All-Aboard panel layout. I kept a 322 Hudson and a couple K-5 Pacifics, though... just cuz.
I also kept my 1939-41 Flyer 3/16th scale, the transitional stuff Gilbert offered pre-war after the debacle sale and closing of Flyer in Chicago. I love the Gilbert Flyer on O-scale track--though the engines are terribly prone to zinc rot.
MagAc
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jlong
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Posted - October 13 2006 : 12:03:12 AM
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In fifteen years, I don't recall seeing Marx HO at local train shows. I will have to look harder. The nicest stuff I've seen is on ebay. I do have one 3/16" O gauge flyer set headed by a K-4 looking engine.
I did get a 60's Mantua mint unbuilt 2-8-2 on ebay last night. Three other bidders outbid me on the vandy tender which closed tonight so I had to snipe the damned thing.
John Long
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Posted - October 13 2006 : 01:01:04 AM
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| The antique / junk shop near my house where I find most of my stuff, always seems to have a selection of Marx stuff... often for just a few bucks a car. Never a locomotive that I could tell, though. Had a complete monon set in box for a while, think it was $50 or so. They seem nice enough, but for some reason they just don't "catch" me the way other stuff does.
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Posted - October 13 2006 : 11:13:45 AM
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John:
The "O" Pennsy flyer is a PRR K-5. Weird choice, but "new and exciting" when the tooling was created in '38. It is one of my favorite Flyer engines; beautiful detail. If you have a freight set we've probably got the same one: gon, tanker, spotlight flat, crummy and engine/tender; it was a line staple in '40 and '41. I suppose I fancy the K-5 set because of the reverie in its discovery--found new and unused in a Wisconsin attic with companion boxed Mystic station with freight crane. Sadly, one of the K-5 drivers failed last Fall and I've been unable to locate a replacement. The dreaded "Zinkpest" is really hard on the early New Haven Flyer products. Any suggestions?
I'm not surprised at multiple bids on the Mantua tender. It is a very good and very-much sought Mantua offering, serving as the basis for many a custom steam build-up. With the company's demise and sale of their tooling I'm surprised it hasn't been offered as an accessory by "Mantua Classics," or perhaps it has. I wouldn't know; I just can't get on the Asian-rim bandwagon.
Good luck on your Mike build-up. You'll have to post a forum topic on the project; it would be interesting. Regards the Marx: surprised Fox River Valley shows don't produce unearthed Allstate/Marx HO in quantity. I've always found a lot in the LaCrosse shows and the Twin City venues. It still strikes me that--despite national popularity and even a Greenburg guide--HO Marx is still a bit disdained by the old-fart rivet-counting scale modellers who show up at NMRA-type events. TCA shows are another matter entirely. HO Marx at those events is likely off the table and gone before the doors open to the public.
Circlz:
Assuming any other HO Marx buffs read Tyco forum posts. there are gonna be a lot of their fans trying to figure out where the "antique/junk shop near (your) house" is. The pricing policy would make many a Marx/Allstate heart flutter. And, worst of all, that off-hand reference to the HO Monon set for a pittance (it is highly prized).
As a fellow Midwesterner I'm surprised you're not more interested in the Marx/Allstate stuff. The Monon set, the multiple Rock Island offerings, the superior SF Warbonnet passenger set (pretty scarce, perhaps you haven't seen one), even their spiffy road n' rails with UP livery... I'd just have figgered you fer a fan.
It is a generation older than you grew up with, and a bit less-detailed and more robust: in the spirit and tradition of O-gauge Marx tinplate, but take a closer look. Once you score an Auto-Loader with late-fifties Caddies, or a (rare) Burlington piggyback, or die-cast Erie cable reel depressed center flat, or twin spotlight, or operating NH box, or generator flat, or flat with Cabin Cruiser load, or flat with twin die-cast caterpillar dozers, or... well, you get the idea.
MagAc
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jlong
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Posted - October 13 2006 : 9:37:31 PM
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quote:| If you have a freight set we've probably got the same one: gon, tanker, spotlight flat, crummy and engine/tender; it was a line staple in '40 and '41. I suppose I fancy the K-5 set because of the reverie in its discovery--found new and unused in a Wisconsin attic with companion boxed Mystic station with freight crane. Sadly, one of the K-5 drivers failed last Fall and I've been unable to locate a replacement. The dreaded "Zinkpest" is really hard on the early New Haven Flyer products. Any suggestions? |
My 3/16" set is headed by a 545 K5 followed by 400 series boxcar, hopper, searchlight, and caboose. The engine has not suffered any rot. I understand oxygen attacks the impurities. I've heard of collectors running ionizers in their train rooms to retard the rotting but I think it's a myth. The only cure I can think of is grinding, filling with body filler, and sealing with epoxy to keep the oxygen out.
I sort of felt like a rat sniping that vandy but at the time I felt I had to have it since I won the engine kit. Plus I had been sniped out of a few other items previously and decided to get even maybe. I dunno. I notice with Tyco on ebay nice stuff can sit for days with zero bids. Once a bid is placed, everyone seems to want it and it ends with a bidding war. A good case in point is the 18 car lot of primo brown box cars I posted earlier. It was up for a week and ended at $10.00 with zero bids. He reslisted it and it turned into a bid war and ended at around $60.00. I snoozed on the mint Talgo train that went today for $50.00! F### F### F###! I figured that sucker would go for like $200 or more and didn't bother to watch it.
John Long
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Posted - October 14 2006 : 12:12:00 AM
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John:
My K-5 problem is slipping due to a single fatigued and failing driver. I've been casting about for a replacement without luck. Thus far my engine shell is OK; but I've seen samples that are totally hosed--like Dorfan and early Marklin Tischbann engines usually look: crumbling crap.
Don't fret over the T-9 set. Tyco made about a billion of the things; they keep turning up like bad pennies. I'd consider it one of the most commonly encountered Tyco passenger sets. It has acquired a following because it looks so Buck Rodgersesque but as for being "rare" it is not.
As I've said elsewhere, at one point in the early sixties Tyco had dumped so many T-9s on the market to eliminate inventory that E&H hobbies, for example, listed them for less than $10. It IS top quality and an excellent set to own, Tyco just mis-gauged the market and the set didn't set the HO world on fire like they expected. That, and the scale modellers stayed away from it in droves. Be patient and another will readily turn up at a reasonable price.
MagAc
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jlong
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Posted - October 14 2006 : 07:28:49 AM
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Mag, all I can say is just keep your eyes peeled for a donor K5 and feel fortunate that it's not the boiler that's rotting. I don't know of any reproduction wheelsets.
LMAO on the Talgo train. Here I thought that was a major Tyco icon. I've never seen one except in the Tyco history section. Thanks for the scoop. I will get one for sure. To a three railer, that kind of stuff is awesome. It is major cool looking.
John Long
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Posted - October 14 2006 : 11:28:36 AM
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John:
Oh, the TylerTycoTalgo is "iconic" all right. It is their "prophet without honor." (Or prophet that didn't turn a profit, I suppose.) It was the "train of the future" for many a young boy who longed most earnestly for the "train of today." And, as soon as ACF/Talgo changed motive power designs thereby consigning Tyco's offering to the limbo of "never to be", Tyco was stuck with a pile of product it had a hard time peddling. Oh, yeah, its an icon, all right. Like the Edsel. And that, too, is probably another reason for its popularity with collectors today. Like the Edsel, it is far more attractive to today's eclectic collector than it ever was to the American public.
MagAcademy
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jlong
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Posted - October 14 2006 : 12:27:50 PM
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I think the same holds true in any collecting arena. There are common postwar Lionel engines that HO scalers get excited about. Case in point is the 624 ATSF NW-5 switchers. They are scale sized, realistic, the ATSF scheme is sharp, and they run forever. But because so many were made, they don't cause a lot of excitement with postwar collectors as they are everywhere.
John Long
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Posted - October 14 2006 : 1:37:01 PM
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John:
Gotcha. Again, it speaks to the "relativity" of rarity. With Tyco a rule of thumb that an old-timer once passed on to me makes pretty good sense:
for every 1 Little Train item you'll find 2 blue box, 10 red box and 25 brown box Tycos. It doesn't mean ANY offering during any era wasn't made in quantity, but speaks to general availability.
With regard to TycoTalgos: they employed many marketing tactics to peddle 'em: Tyco sets, Mantua kits and (when the engine didn't materialize on the real American rails) ACF car-only sets. Now, dating from the blue-box era, (remember the relativity rule) they are rather uncommon and you should by all means pursue one. I offer my commentary only as perspective.
MA
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jlong
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Posted - October 16 2006 : 07:45:00 AM
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OK, I get it. Tyco didn't make a zillion Talgos. The Talgo apeals to only a few so the supply exceeds the demand. A Lionel SF NW-5 is a poor analogy in that case.
John Long
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Posted - October 16 2006 : 8:29:22 PM
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John:
Well, sort of...
I think supply certainly exceeded demand while the Talgo was catalogued. These days, as I wrote earlier, it has become rather iconic, like Edsels, lava lamps and M.C. Hammer pantaloons. So it is pursued by many a younger collector unfamiliar with grim details of its earlier failure. All I was suggesting is--that much like TsgtBob's sudden realization he had an old Talgo lying around forgotten--many a T-9 set is reposing forgotten in old-hands' otherwise ordered world of conventional HO inventory. Therefore, don't beat yourself up over missing that last one--there is another Talgo train awaiting the patient collector, and at a reasonable price.
MagAc
Personally, I'm more interested in the saga of your Mike build-up!
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Posted - October 17 2006 : 02:13:27 AM
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Yeah, I was shocked at the price of the Talgo Set. I thought about proxying before leaving for vacation and was like "Why bother"? Doh!
Puts the money I've spent on some of those piggybacks in perspective. Then again... everybody loves piggybacks. I only learned of the Talgo thanks to this site a few months ago!
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jlong
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Posted - October 17 2006 : 02:49:37 AM
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quote:Personally, I'm more interested in the saga of your Mike build-up!
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Yea, me too. Once the kit gets here I want to go out for detail parts and decals. I'm wondering about decal film and the flat finish I want to give it. I've heard of glosscoat followed by dullcoat to hide the film but wonder if that is the best way to do this.
John Long
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Posted - October 17 2006 : 03:02:22 AM
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Oh, make no mistake - you DEFINITELY want to decal on a glossy surface, then seal it later.
A flat surface is much rougher on a microscopic scale. These imperfections absorb light and make the surface appear "flat". Unfortunately, what this means is that a decal would have to settle into millions of impossibly small little divots and such. Since that can never happen, what you end up with is a nice satin outline around your decal graphic.
Gloss paints are formulated so they don't have as many surface imperfections, which yields a nice smooth reflective surface that makes decal film almost disappear.
Trust me - I tried the lazy way by decaling over flat and yeah - you can tell. Even using Microsol didn't help (A recommendation in any case, though).
I know of people who Paint - Glosscoat - Decal - Glosscoat - Flatcoat. Supposedly this makes th decal "float" between like coats for a truly invisible look, but I personally can't descern a visible beneift and worry about the loss of detail with that much coating applied.
Edited by - GoingInCirclez on October 17 2006 03:03:37 AM
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jlong
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Posted - October 17 2006 : 07:30:10 AM
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Never seen this before. Kalmbach puts out a book on bashing and painting steam engines. Looks like the book to get:
http://kalmbachcatalog.stores.yahoo.net/12221.html
John Long
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Posted - October 17 2006 : 11:42:17 AM
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John:
Yes, the Kalmbach offering is a good investment for steam-build-ups in particular. It is a solid primer (Unless you've got a good stockpile of old MRs or RMCs lying around. In that event, you'll find twenty different routes to the same destination. I like consulting the old hands on such matters and frequently delve into back issues.)
Circlz advice regarding paint and decal application is sound, per usual.
I personally hope the t-9 anxiety has been put to rest. I recall a blue box set every bit as desireable (to me at any rate): TYCO-marked Silo-matic drive Pacific with three constant lighting metal streamliners, inserts, papers and master box that fetched less than $19 last year on eBay. (It went to a comrade, so I honored his bid but was still surprised at the final gavel by the low cost.)
In other words, there are anough bargains to come that Tyconauts needn't beat themselves up over "the one that got away."
I also feel compelled to add my continued surprise at some auction outcomes at the other end of the spectrum: like the DRGW Geep in rather beat-up box for $52. Speaks to growing interest in nice old red box are, I suppose.
MagAc
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