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RP model railroads
Big Boy



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 Posted - November 25 2022 :  9:35:47 PM Link directly to this topic  Show Profile  Add RP model railroads to Buddylist
A project I NEED to complete is replacing the motor in my Ephrata Valley Mantua Mikado #46.....

So, the Repower Kit offered by NorthWest Short Line looks awesome, except it has a large black gear pictured beneath the motor.

To anyone who knows or has done such a motor replacement before, will I need to replace the gear that's on the driver, with the NWSL provided one?

Thank you.


"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in Heaven." - Matthew 5:16

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rbturner
Big Six

RBT

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 Posted - November 26 2022 :  12:32:03 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add rbturner to Buddylist
Yes, you'll have to swap the drive axle gear. I can help you with this.
Randy
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jward
Big Six

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 Posted - November 26 2022 :  2:37:59 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add jward to Buddylist
I have one of these in a Tyco pacific that is currently torn apart at a friend's house. Will it work with the original gear? Or will we have to completely disassemble the running gear to get at that axle?
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rbturner
Big Six

RBT

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 Posted - November 26 2022 :  7:34:09 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add rbturner to Buddylist
I am not sure if the new motor will work with the old gear. I would assume the axle gear would need replaced but cannot confirm that.
Randy
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RP model railroads
Big Boy



DOUBLE NICKEL55

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 Posted - December 02 2022 :  9:49:18 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add RP model railroads to Buddylist
Ok, I went ahead and bought the kit (there's a 15% off sale sitewide for the entire month, btw.)

I really hope that the NWSL motor is compatible with the stock Mantua gear.....

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in Heaven." - Matthew 5:16

Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/rpmodelrailroads

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rp_model_railroads/
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RP model railroads
Big Boy



DOUBLE NICKEL55

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 Posted - December 26 2022 :  10:23:18 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add RP model railroads to Buddylist
So, the NWSL kit arrived a little while back, and I finally sat down to replace the motor in my Mikado #46.


I was impressed by the small size of the motor, but wonder why they couldn't just make a motor that would attach to the original motor mount screw.....but anyways....


The worm gear on the NWSL motor is not compatible with the stock Mantua driver gear....there is way too much of a gap between the teeth on the driver gear and the worm gear, and they don't mesh properly (this image is with a different 2-8-2 driver gear wheel that I have on hand.)


Compare that to how well the NWSL motor worm gear meshes with the NWSL replacement black gear....


I wasn't interested in taking off the valve gear and rod assembly to change out the gears...etc, so I just installed another Mantua open-frame motor from a parts engine into my Mikado, upgraded the magnet to a Neodymium one, and now it's back to running splendidly. 2 rod screws ended up loosening somehow, but that was a simple fix.

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in Heaven." - Matthew 5:16

Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/rpmodelrailroads

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rp_model_railroads/

Edited by - RP model railroads on December 26 2022 10:25:11 PM
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jward
Big Six

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 Posted - December 27 2022 :  3:38:41 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add jward to Buddylist
I'm sorry you don't want to change out the gear, but I understand. It's not something I'd want to tackle without the proper tools. Luckily I have a good friend who works on brass locomotives as a side hustle, and he has both the proper tools for the job and the knowledge on how to work on steam locomotives. My Pacific is currently at his place awaiting installation of this same repower kit, and when I get some time, I will go over there and tackle the conversion with him. Hopefully, I can provide some photos and insight when mine is done. The same repower kit fits both the Pacific and the Mikado, which share many parts. I also have a 4-8-0 that I'd be interested in doing a similar repower on, if I can find a suitable conversion kit.
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scsshaggy
Big Boy


scsshaggy

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 Posted - December 27 2022 :  4:53:57 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add scsshaggy to Buddylist
The tough thing about pulling a driver is that you have to get it back on in proper quarter. If it's turned either way from where it originally was, the connecting rods will bind. I've read that you should make a scratch across the axle and wheel hub so you can see exactly where it needs to line up. It seems to me that it could be difficult to see if the scratches line up exactly before the wheel is pressed back on.
Carpe Manana!
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Brian4321
Hudson

Gilbert HO

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 Posted - December 28 2022 :  1:30:47 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Brian4321 to Buddylist
If you have one, a quartering tool will do the trick.
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Bamos
Little Six

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 Posted - December 29 2022 :  6:03:43 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Bamos to Buddylist
I ordered 5 kits from here on ebay for a fraction of the price of the NWSL kit. I haven't installed one, but you don't need to change the gear.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/364088652224?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=YE7an90aTSa&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=27srlz82q0y&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Here's a video of on being installed in a 4 6 2.

https://youtu.be/kk4COpm0b_4

Bill
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RP model railroads
Big Boy



DOUBLE NICKEL55

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 Posted - December 30 2022 :  10:11:19 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add RP model railroads to Buddylist
Yeah, I just didn't want to remove the rods and valve gear to pull the driver, to pull the gear.....I admit, I'm not all that good at fixing steam engines, but I know enough to maintain and/or tune them up.

Bamos, I saw those motors before, but realized the worm gear wasn't included. I am actually subscribed to Classic Model Trains on YouTube, but didn't watch this video of his. Thanks! I'm going to watch it.

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in Heaven." - Matthew 5:16

Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/rpmodelrailroads

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rp_model_railroads/
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Brian4321
Hudson

Gilbert HO

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 Posted - December 30 2022 :  10:42:41 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Brian4321 to Buddylist
Bamos,

Thanks for posting those links as I had not seen the re-gear video before. I've always wondered how caulk/glue can hold the motor in position for long due to stress on the gears. I'm looking forward to your re-gear project and how it pans out.
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jward
Big Six

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 Posted - December 31 2022 :  12:05:36 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add jward to Buddylist
quote:
I ordered 5 kits from here on ebay for a fraction of the price of the NWSL kit. I haven't installed one, but you don't need to change the gear.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/364088652224?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=YE7an90aTSa&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=27srlz82q0y&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Here's a video of on being installed in a 4 6 2.

https://youtu.be/kk4COpm0b_4

Originally posted by Bamos - December 29 2022 :  6:03:43 PM



Is this the one where the instructions tell you to glue the motor in with Gorilla Glue? That sounds a bit half assed to me. I bought one of those but never used it. The NWSL kit is a much better engineered solution.
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scsshaggy
Big Boy


scsshaggy

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 Posted - December 31 2022 :  4:37:12 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add scsshaggy to Buddylist
quote:
Is this the one where the instructions tell you to glue the motor in with Gorilla Glue?
Originally posted by jward - December 31 2022 :  12:05:36 PM


That's the one. I have several misgivings about the thing.

When you mount the worm right to the motor shaft without a separate gear box, there's strain on the motor bearings. The smaller the shaft, the less robust the bearings. This assembly hangs a big flywheel, a big, long shaft and the worm all on what looks like a 2mm shaft as opposed to the 2.4mm shaft of the original motor. With the length of the shaft from the motor to the worm, there's lots of leverage to create even more strain.

I think it would also be hard to fine-tune the mesh with that fishing pole amplifying any adjustment to the motor's location.

In the video, the guy installs the new motor and runs just the engine on a flat track. Put a big train behind the locomotive and dive down a steep grade. That'll load up the gears and the worm gear will act like a brake shoe on the worm. I'd be concerned that with the worm way out on that pole, it could deflect to the side a bit creating a vibration and possibly funny wear.

I would do (and have done) exactly what RP ended up doing. I just upgraded the magnet on the motor of my Mantua Mike and called it good. The best arrangement was the old Mantua "Power Drive" which was a big motor, a flexible shaft and a gear box holding a worm over the worm gear. Unfortunately, that product is no longer for sale.

Carpe Manana!
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jward
Big Six

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 Posted - January 01 2023 :  5:43:43 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add jward to Buddylist
This brings up another question. I also have a Tyco 4-8-0 oldtimer that I;d like to remotor. Do you have any suggestions or insights for this particular locomotive? It appears to be the 4-6-0 with an added set of drivers. If I need to upgrade the magnet where would I get one and what should I be looking for?
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scsshaggy
Big Boy


scsshaggy

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 Posted - January 01 2023 :  7:15:05 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add scsshaggy to Buddylist
quote:
This brings up another question. I also have a Tyco 4-8-0 oldtimer that I;d like to remotor. Do you have any suggestions or insights for this particular locomotive? It appears to be the 4-6-0 with an added set of drivers. If I need to upgrade the magnet where would I get one and what should I be looking for?


Originally posted by jward - January 01 2023 :  5:43:43 PM


I usually get magnets here:
https://www.kjmagnetics.com/

The usual Mantua motor usually has a magnet that's 1/2" tall from north to south. I usually stack up magnets 1/2" tall from ones 1/2" long and 1/4" wide. This can be fit in next to the screw or rivet (depending on the age of the motor) and produces a field much stronger than the original magnet.

The poles of the magnet should run from the top to the bottom of the motor. If they don't, it's not a motor and won't run. If the motor runs backwards, the magnet's upside down and needs to be flipped over. The magnets need to be stacked with the poles all pointing the same way, which is how they want to be anyhow.

Carpe Manana!
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jward
Big Six

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 Posted - January 02 2023 :  11:14:34 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add jward to Buddylist
quote:
quote:
This brings up another question. I also have a Tyco 4-8-0 oldtimer that I;d like to remotor. Do you have any suggestions or insights for this particular locomotive? It appears to be the 4-6-0 with an added set of drivers. If I need to upgrade the magnet where would I get one and what should I be looking for?


Originally posted by jward - January 01 2023 :  5:43:43 PM


I usually get magnets here:
https://www.kjmagnetics.com/

The usual Mantua motor usually has a magnet that's 1/2" tall from north to south. I usually stack up magnets 1/2" tall from ones 1/2" long and 1/4" wide. This can be fit in next to the screw or rivet (depending on the age of the motor) and produces a field much stronger than the original magnet.

The poles of the magnet should run from the top to the bottom of the motor. If they don't, it's not a motor and won't run. If the motor runs backwards, the magnet's upside down and needs to be flipped over. The magnets need to be stacked with the poles all pointing the same way, which is how they want to be anyhow.

Originally posted by scsshaggy - January 01 2023 :  7:15:05 PM






I notice they sell 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/4 magnets with the proper polar axis. Is there a particular reason you are stacking smaller magnets? Would a one piece magnet work?
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scsshaggy
Big Boy


scsshaggy

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 Posted - January 02 2023 :  5:18:14 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add scsshaggy to Buddylist
quote:

I notice they sell 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/4 magnets with the proper polar axis. Is there a particular reason you are stacking smaller magnets? Would a one piece magnet work?
Originally posted by jward - January 02 2023 :  11:14:34 AM


I've used the one-piece one and I've stacked them. Either works. There's a rating system for how intense the field is. I forgot the unit of measure, but the one-piece magnet is rated at 48 and there are smaller ones rated at 52, so the most magnetic field you could get is by stacking the 52's, but in a practical sense, I'm not sure it makes a difference.

By the way, there's a half inch cube with a hole through the middle parallel with the poles. The older motors with a screw rather than a rivet by the magnet can take one of those. It's probably too big for the smaller locomotives, but I have used that magnet on the Mikado where I needed all the torque I could get.

Carpe Manana!
Edited by - scsshaggy on January 02 2023 5:21:51 PM
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RP model railroads
Big Boy



DOUBLE NICKEL55

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 Posted - January 02 2023 :  9:26:09 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add RP model railroads to Buddylist
Originally posted by Bamos - December 29 2022 :  6:03:43 PM

[/quote]

Is this the one where the instructions tell you to glue the motor in with Gorilla Glue? That sounds a bit half assed to me. I bought one of those but never used it. The NWSL kit is a much better engineered solution.


Originally posted by jward-December 31 2022: 12:05:36 PM

[/quote]

The NWSL kit also directs you to glue the motor in place, essentially. Now, the NWSL directions recommend some sort of gasket sealer stuff, but still, why couldn't the motor have been engineered in some way to screw onto the original Mantua stock motor screw?

As far as that Ebay motor, I now understand that the design is poor, but in general, having to remove the Mantua stock worm gear and re-attach it on the new motor shaft is, interesting. At least NWSL provides a new gear and such, but the directions (at least to me) are incredibly complex.




"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in Heaven." - Matthew 5:16

Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/rpmodelrailroads

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rp_model_railroads/

Edited by - RP model railroads on January 02 2023 9:29:09 PM
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scsshaggy
Big Boy


scsshaggy

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 Posted - January 02 2023 :  11:01:42 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add scsshaggy to Buddylist
quote:
The NWSL kit also directs you to glue the motor in place, essentially. Now, the NWSL directions recommend some sort of gasket sealer stuff, but still, why couldn't the motor have been engineered in some way to screw onto the original Mantua stock motor screw?
Originally posted by RP model railroads - January 02 2023 :  9:26:09 PM


I think the gasket sealer is intended to isolate the motor vibration from the frame to cut down the noise. I would still be more impressed, though, if the kit came with a bracket that mounted to the frame. I forgot where, but it seems that somewhere in all this, I saw a picture of the NWSL motor glued to the frame of the original Mantua motor, so that part of the old motor became the mounting bracket. At least you can unscrew that from the frame for maintenance.

Carpe Manana!
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Bamos
Little Six

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 Posted - January 03 2023 :  07:04:15 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Bamos to Buddylist
Here is the motor it looks like the NWSL one


Bill
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