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 Posted - July 26 2007 : 10:40:01 AM
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OK, I admit up front I know very little about trains. , so please bear with me. About 20 years ago, when we had our first kid, we setup a fairly simple HO track on a 4' X 8' plywood base - covered it with green material, put up an oval run with one interior oval with remote left/right switches, have one engine and maybe 8 cars, and an assortment of cheap plastic houses and other loose decor pieces. It worked OK, we'd bring it out every christmas and play with it for a week or two, and then put it away.
Recently, we've noticed some problems with it - the remote switches no longer work (they are physically broken), and one section of the track isn't working well (train slows down and almost stops). So we're faced with wondering what to do.
The first option is to replace the malfunctioning remote switches, and try to tweak the slow section of track (presumably it is some sort of electrical contact/conductivity issue).
However, when I went out to look at replacement pieces, I find that now I have to worry about the height of the track, the height of the ties, etc. - so what I thought might be a simple fix now seems a lot more complicated than 20 years ago when we merrily just bought some track and had fun. Also I read about needing to clean the rails, etc., which makes it more daunting. Some background: we now have 9 kids (mostly adopted), so anything resembling a "project" has to be carefully considered because I could fill 30 hour days completely as is. But it would be fun to run the train, we actually have some space now available in the house where we could set it up more frequently (which is what started this whole thing)
Option 2 is to do nothing, and just let the train run, as is, and kids can switch the train manually if so desired. Sounds lame to me, but "doing nothing as long as it kinda works" is always an option we have to consider.
Option 3 is to replace the track with one of the new "snap togehter" systems. What intrigued me is the claim that you can "snap them together and then hang them from the wall" - although I wonder how well that would work with anything other than a simple, small circle track. But something that is easier to do and maintain would be attractive to me, as long as the cost isn't too much. It looks like the cost of replacement track might be around $75 from, say, amazon for maybe 35' of track (just guessing how much I have now), including two remote switches, which is probably the upper limit of how much I'd spend to redo the track, given that I can presumably fix it for a lot less (more like $20 for replacement remote switches).
So, my open-ended question: what do you think of my options? Are there others? What have I missed that might be important to me? Would the new snap-togehter track work a lot better under the conditions of having kids use it, and taking it up/down from time to time?
Basically I appreciate any and all thoughts on my options, sources of parts, etc. Oh, and I live in Vermont, so pretty much everything comes from online ordering. I'd like to keep my rolling stock in all cases, snice that represents a big cost, and they are working just fine.
Thanks!
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Posted - July 26 2007 : 11:24:11 AM
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Certainly you could make repairs on the existing track.
Though the roadbed track found frequently today would be an improvement, if the layout is not expected to get a great deal of use it might not be ideal to replace everything with new track.
Atlas offers regular snap track and you can purchase 9-inch straight sections; curves; and/or switches all that should be very compatible with your existing set up. This would be the simpliest and least costly approach.
Do you have the ability to take a picture of your train layout? It would be easier to help troubleshoot your situation and make suggestions, if I could see what you're working with right now.
[:)]
Tony Cook
HO-Scale Trains Resource
http://ho-scaletrains.net
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Posted - July 26 2007 : 11:40:57 AM
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Hey, thanks for the reply..and sure, I've got a digicam and can take a picture, and post it here. Good idea.
About replacing/fixing the track...how much pain is it to worry about the various heights of track (100, 083, etc)? I just figured i'd make a quick amazon order for some remote switches and track, and swap them out, and be done..but then I had no idea what height I have now, and I was daunted by the fact that I had to figure out which one to order. I assume I can mix and match heights but that would involve shimming and such, which I'd like to avoid.
Just to reiterate a question on the snap-togeher track - could you truly make up some sort of two-oval track, snap it together, and then hang it up and take it out? Right now moving the 4X8 plywood board is a project that requires several of us, but if we could hang up a section of track that weighs just a few pounds, that becomes a lot more attractive to me...
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Posted - July 26 2007 : 12:21:40 PM
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Welcome.
Your track more than likely is code 100 so just about any Atlas #4 C100 switch should be a drop in fit.
As for a layout you can hang up with 2 loops of track...
...mine has four loops and is designed to stand on its end. I did use flex track with this one, in 12", 18" and 20" radius. The forth loop is Marklin M track but could easily be done in regular Atlas C100 using their #4 turnouts. The elevated loop is done in plywood and sturdy enough to be used as grab points when storing.
I don't know that I would hang any track by itself for any length of time without some form of structure to it but that's just me. I've seen some pretty wild claims in 30+ years in the hobby, I don't doubt it could do it, I just wouldn't plan a layout with that in mind.
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Posted - July 26 2007 : 12:37:38 PM
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Your observations on the complexity of the modern hobby is something I've noted and lamented with friends. It can be VERY easy, if you have deep pockets. So I sympathize because even Model Railroader magazine doesn't seem to help beginners any more, except in december when they present a $3000 project that "anyone can build spend". Bah!
So, to help someone get started the way _I_ did....
Based on what you described, it sounds like you probably just got a train set at a store 20 years ago, and used everything that came with it. Nothing wrong with that, but one engine and eight cars plus track is fairly typical of a larger set.
20+ years ago, most if not all track was standard, and this size would have been Code 100 rail. Most train-set type stuff, even the roadbed track, STILL uses Code 100 rail. It's only been within the last 15-20 years that modelers have become nitpicky to a fault, but it does take some effort to buy the lower-code rail (in other words, you have to find a hobby shop that deals in it).
So I'm willing to say with 95% certainty that Code 100 track should work.
As for upgrading the whole bit - I have amassed a decent stash of roadbed track I use for testing, etc. You can make a loop and indeed, "hang it from the wall". But, there is still some flex and give to it so if you did this every day, it would certainly wear out over time. Turnouts (switch tracks) and inner loops would add strength because the roadbed bases are denser. Always an option as you say, but it IS ridiculously expensive stuff new.
As for cleaning the rails that depends on three things:
1) If your old track is brass, throw it out. It's a major pain to clean. You can certainly try to clean and make do with it, but long-term, you're better off replacing it.
2) If your track has a dull, rough, bare metal finish, it is steel. Better than brass, but tends to get dirty quickly. Fortunately you can use a pencil eraser to get most of the grime off (use a large pad eraser for ease). Do NOT use abrasives like sandpaper or steel wool. Once you get most of the grime off, try polishing with a cleaning solution or rubbing alcohol.
3) If the track has a nice shiny polished sheen to it, it's nickel-silver: good stuff. Cleans the same way as steel... but lasts longer in general. This is what is preferred today regardless of "code".
Once the track is clean, troubleshoot other electrical gremlins by inspecting the rail joiners between sections. You might crimp them down gently, using needle-nose pliers. Also clean the locomotive wheels the same way you did the track. If there are plastic wheels, look to see if they do (or did) have "traction tires" on them. If so, take care not to break them. They can get brittle with age. If you see a groove in the plastic wheel, it USED to have a tire but is now missing. Replacements may be available from hobby shops, but traction tires are not widely used anymore.
A 20-year old trainset locomotive (Tyco, Bachmann, Life-Like) is not going to be a great runner, so just keep that in mind. If you get your track serviced cheaply, you might invest in a good Athearn loco as Shaygetz suggested instead... that's the first, best upgrade for a lot of people.
If you decide to replace the track, consider used sources like ebay, secondhand sales, etc. That old sectional track is still useful, but mostly considered "useless" by serious hobbyists... and there is plenty of the stuff for sale out there. You can end up with lots of it for next to nothing (might be harder to do in Vermont though). You might find even find EZ-track lots on ebay cheaply as well.
If you go the new route, Atlas Code 100 "Snap-Track" should be the closest match, and will probably only be nickel-silver which is fine. The ties don't matter on the low-end stuff.
Train sets can go cheap. Unfortunately you might have to spend some time comparing and and shopping around to know what to look for. It is very possible to get an entire NEW, NICE (not junky) train set for far, FAR less than retail - engine, track, cars and all! Or even some good used stuff for next to nothing, relatively... but that takes some knowledge.
Edited by - GoingInCirclez on July 26 2007 1:43:44 PM
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Posted - July 26 2007 : 12:57:56 PM
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I doubt you'll get a good deal through Amazon. Try this place.
http://www.nhshobbies.com/SearchResults.asp
As mentioned you probably have code 100 track and your turns are probably 18" radius. (it should say on the bottom of a curved piece of track.) You probably want remote "snap" switches. This place has REAL good prices on all their stuff.
Are the ties on your track black or dark brown?
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Posted - July 26 2007 : 1:56:20 PM
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| thanks again for the replies..i'm at work now, so I'll have to look at things later tonight (my "tonight" usually starts around 10 pm after all the kids are in bed), so I'll post more data, pictures, etc., later tonight...
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Posted - July 27 2007 : 01:23:28 AM
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ok, some more information. I'll post a picture as soon as I figure out someplace to host it and how to upload it here.
My set is a mix of track types - about 5 runs of 3' brass, and the rest looks to be standard 9" straight and curved sections of nickel-silver, since it looks "shinier" than I would expect steel to look like. The nickel-silver is, indeed, 18" radius. The brass looks like we used it in a flexible manner to make small curves and such to make the track connect nicely to the silver-nickel sections. Although whether it was designed to be flexible like that I don't know from 20 years ago...
The ties are black. I found some tyco documentation, so I assume the orginial base set is a tyco. I just replaced the engine with the one choice from the one local hobby shop - we started it up after a year or so of disuse, and the engine ran about a foot and then died (smoking and burning smell...). Figuring it was just the engine, we bought a new one locally, since the kids were all excited about it and we didn't want to wait. Sadly, then we discovered the remote switches were broken, the one section has a bad connection (train slows down almost to a stop), and the train derails on several spots, no doubt due to loose/distorted track.
So, I'm still pondering ideas at this point. Hopefully will post the picture soon, and again, thanks.
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Posted - July 27 2007 : 07:25:46 AM
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A nice feature of the TYCO Forum is its ability to host pictures for you. It is requested by our forum host, Todd aka New York Central, that images are kept to 800x600 pixels. Just use the paperclip icon in the row of Format button on your message. A new window should open that allows you to browse and select your image. Then you upload it there and once loaded a message will appear asking you to double-click to place the image in your forum response. This even applies the correct html info, so the user needs to do nothing else and your image will appear in your forum message.
Tony Cook
HO-Scale Trains Resource
http://ho-scaletrains.net
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Posted - July 27 2007 : 09:17:36 AM
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ok, 3 pictures, two of the set from different angles (this was late at night and there was no one to help me move it, so I had to contort myself to find a decent shot), and my transformer, which seems to be working ok, except it buzzes sometimes (if it buzzed all the time or none of the time I'd feel better)...also the engine I just got is a DCC version (not even realizing it at the time, but maybe all engines are dcc these days?), which just by readng the box I assume if I replaced it with a new digital version we could do wonderous things with the train, but that's just another factor in all this.  
Thanks for the pointer for hosting pics here, that made it easier...
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Posted - July 27 2007 : 12:47:06 PM
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| You picked a good road name for your locomotive![:D] Is that a Bachman? (should say on the bottom of the fuel tank)
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Posted - July 27 2007 : 12:54:04 PM
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Hi,
The pics are fine... nice to see what you've got. I'm going to address what I see, point-by-point; I'm sure others will chime in.
1) Your turnouts look like they were wired correctly. You can double-check and make sure the wiring is still OK. Beyond that, don't be surprised if they do not work. They were operated by solenoids that could burn out easily, especially if you held the button for a long time. It may be possible to replace just the solenoid as they have not changed much; you will need to work with a good hobby shop.
2) Your inner loop.... the narrow end looks like it has too tight of a curve. 18" radius really is a minimum, and that's what the corners of your outer loop is made of. Too tight of a radius will invite derailments and other issues.
3) The mix-and-matching of track (brass with steel and/or nickel-silver) isn't normally a problem. But given that the brass seems to be flextrack, and was laid with too tight of a corner, you might should replace that. If you look at your outer loop, the curves at the ends have a straight-track spacer in the middle. So you could make the inner loop out of 18" radius track and still fit it in there.
4) DCC locomotives. Unfortunately, those will NOT run with your old Tyco (or any other) plain power pack. DCC would allow for some bonus features but you'd have to upgrade a bit more to appreciate them. So, I would stick to standard locos for now. Athearn blue-box or RTR, or the non-dcc Bachmann line that Tony Cook recommended.
Here's what I would do. See if you can clean your steel track. Inspect the connections between sections and see how well you can get the train to run. Once you inspect the track and repair what you can, you'll know what you should replace. (As for steel vs. Nickel silver - the nickel-silver looks a lot like silver. It can be hard to tell steel vs NS if you've never seen them side by side before).
At the very least, if it were me, I would replace the entire inner loop and probably both switches as well.
One source that I have dealt with and would recommend, is MB Klein in Baltimore. Their website is modeltrainstuff.com. Unfortunately they redesigned it and it's not exactly "beginner friendly" anymore (you now need to know who makes what), BUT, here is a link to Atlas Snap track:
http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/category_s/103.htm
At $0.59 a section, you could probably get most of that layout redone for around $30.00. If you search the link I gave you, they do have a "starter pack" that includes turnouts and such for $25 which might be a good deal, but I don't know what layout it makes. Turnouts are expensive; you can get the solenoid for $6 or the whole switch for $12 or so.
EZ-track will give you sticker shock.
Don't forget essentials like track nails, rail cleaner eraser, and rail joiners...
If you get all that, I may have a new power pack I can donate to the cause. Might be nicer than that old Tyco pack you're using. I had some snap track left over but I don't know if it would be enough for your layout, plus I just buried it deep a couple weeks ago.
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Posted - July 27 2007 : 1:28:43 PM
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quote:| my transformer, which seems to be working ok, except it buzzes sometimes |
I don't have a Tyco transformer, so I could be wrong about this, but I don't think it should be buzzing. I used to have an old transformer that started buzzing, and about a month later I smelled something that smelled like marshmallows burning...well you can guess what was burning[B)]... Anyway, a new transformer would definitely be a good idea.
-cheez
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Posted - July 27 2007 : 1:57:42 PM
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I'm going to be sort of hit-and-miss on replies, since I'm doing this at work (shush...don't tell my boss) when i have a spare minute, and I dont have access to my set here....
Yeah, i'm worried about the transformer, since the buzzing is intermittant...always on/always off I'd suspect it was normal, but sometimes yes/sometimes no is a soon-to-be-problem. Oh well, the good news is that I can get a digital transformer of some kind and then my dcc engine can do strange and wonderful things. I hope.
And since the more I see and read, I don't think the new track type with the railbed built in that clips together is worth the extra expense, because unless I could literally clip it togehter quickly and/or hang it from a hook, such that the kids could quickly grab it and play with it without my help, it still sounds like a support structure (like my 4x8 plywood board) is the way to go, and I can avoid the expense and stick with plain track.
I'm definitely replacing the two remote switch track pieces. Looking at them, they are physically broken, and there is no way I'm going to have time to try and repair them, if I can replace them for $10 each or so, and have a new switch as opposed to a repaired 20 year old one, given that it sounds like I should pull up and at least partially reroute/replace some of my track anyway.
I'm going to have to print out this thread and look at my track as I read it, since I can understand at a high level what people are saying, but i'm going to have to digest it in terms of making specific changes. Not sure if I should just take everything off the board and start over, or just pull some of the problem areas and fix them, but I'll keep thinking on this as I get more ideas.
I really do appreciate all this help...
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Posted - July 28 2007 : 4:34:36 PM
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I have one of those power paks. They are not supposed to buzz. They do have a built in circuit breaker so if they get a short or over heat, they will shut off. Unplug and allow to cool and they come back on.
That NHS hobbies I posted a link to has those remote turnouts for $10.
You'll have to buy the switch controls seperate.
If you get your track all nailed down on the 4x8 and solder all the rail joiners in place, you'll kid proof it and have a lot less problems. (but you won't be able to change your track plan easily)
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Posted - July 29 2007 : 07:19:06 AM
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| I doubt I'll solder the pieces together - besides the flexibility issue, I'm not good at soldering, and I'll probably be assembling the track in one marathon night (which is when I have my time to do these kinds of porjects). Now that I'm starting to get myself edumacated on this area, if one of the kids seems to have a semi-serious interest, then i'd like to be able to work with them to make track enhancements and such over time...
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Posted - July 29 2007 : 9:11:42 PM
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| If your not going to solder and still use some of your old track, do yourself a favor and replace all the old rail joiners with new ones. These can come loose over time and cause electrical problems. $5 well spent.
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Posted - July 30 2007 : 11:47:58 AM
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Good idea..should I therefore not re-use the existing joiners I assume? And would 20 year old joiners still be ok? In other words, is it time or use that would make them not useful? Not that it is a big deal to get more either way, just curious if I should keep my existing ones or throw them all out.
Another question - most of my adopted kids have physical/behavior issues, given the circumstances of their childhood. They get very frustrated trying to get trains, especially the engine, on the track successfully. While certainly I could always do that for them, but obviously I'd like them to be able to do it, for a couple of reasons. I have some sort of track piece that was presumably intended to facilitate that, but it is curved, and that makes it hard to use, especially for engines. Is there a track piece that makes it easy to add engines and cars for people with such difficulties? right now they can't quite get them on, so they immediately derail, and I need to address that issue if at all possible.
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Posted - July 30 2007 : 1:22:34 PM
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Whether or not you use the joiners depends on their condition. Sometimes, they were crimped onto the rails at the factory and are not removable.
I would say that if they are not discolored or oxidized, and not bent, you should be able to reuse them with care. You can squeeze them to make the gap smaller and the fit more snug, which helps a lot.
Certainly for the minimal investment, replacing them all is a good way to go if you can do so. But it's not always necessary. If you buy new track sections, joiners are included. You'd only need spares to potentially replace on the track you already have.
There is a straight-track piece like the one you describe. Look for a "Rerailer"' or a "terminal rerailer" (they are the same but the terminal version has power pack connectors). The straight track might be easier for them to handle.
There are also ramps made to roll rolling stock onto the rails. One if made by a company called "Rix" and they call it the "Rail-It". You set the ramp on the rails, then put a car on the ramp and let it roll down. But I don't know if it would work well for a locomotive. Way I see it, most locos don't roll freely, so it they might just slide down and thunk onto the rails more by luck, and then you'd have to move the ramp to set the back wheels down.
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Posted - July 30 2007 : 1:42:23 PM
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| A striaght rerailer sounds exactly like the answer. I agree, not sure about the ramp thing, but let's start with the standard solution and see how that works for the kids.
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Posted - July 30 2007 : 2:37:58 PM
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This is the ramp Tony is talking about. You simply set it on the rails in the two slots, then roll your cars down it. Works like a champ.
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Posted - August 18 2007 : 4:42:40 PM
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thanks for all the help from people...I've got a part of the new track up and running, as the pictures show (only some of my kids would be in the pictures...teens were reluctant as they often are..oh well.  
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 Posted - August 18 2007 : 5:00:42 PM
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| Whew...that last camera angle gave me a 70s flashback...[:D]
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Posted - August 18 2007 : 5:08:27 PM
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| yeah, well, like most things in my life I have 3.5 seconds to do them or I lose my window of opportunity, so I ran down, took some pictues, and moved on. The kids loved the sound-enabled transformer - we heard train whistles for hours :). Fortunately, that is our basement, so the sound didn't drive us tooo crazy...
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Posted - August 18 2007 : 6:57:08 PM
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Roger that...I have two of my own[:D]
Is that Bachmann EZ Track? If so, I have a right hand switch and 3 pieces of straight that were part of a box lot you're welcome to.
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