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 Posted - June 08 2020 : 7:40:55 PM
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I can't believe I've obtained another Tyco Prototype locomotive in matter of 2 weeks....but here it is.
A Western Pacific ALCO C430!
This is quite interesting, actually, as first off, it features pre-installed handrails, and decals for both the Western Pacific logo beneath the cab windows & "Western Pacific" lettering along the side of the C430. Also, the front (powered) PT truck features Tyco's EMD "Bloomberg" truck covers, while the rear truck sports the typical Alco/Baldwin truck covers. And the EMD truck covers on the front truck are NOT glued on, but rather factory-installed.
   
Besides the factory-quality black striping on the nose and the rear of the locomotive, there is also some experimentation below the railings; the front features orange paint around the coupler, while the rear is silver. It seems like they were trying to see which color would look better.
*Also, the "5628" numbers above the front cab windows are painted over in silver, while the rear of the locomotive does not have number inserts.
 
Something else I found to be weird, on the right side of the C430, is what appears to be a piece of plastic that popped-out, but was never removed, when the weight was installed. I've never seen anything like this before on any Tyco locomotive, and interestingly stayed on the locomotive, showing that it definitely didn't pass an inspection. 
This is by far an amazing prototype, and would have looked great if Tyco had approved it to be officially produced. I cannot believe that this is the 2nd prototype locomotive I've added to my collection, and at that, was purchased from a different seller and interestingly, for a similar price ($40). Incredible Tyco history!
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in Heaven." - Matthew 5:16
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Posted - June 08 2020 : 9:03:39 PM
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| Whooa Nelly! Isn't that a rare one?
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Posted - June 08 2020 : 9:43:12 PM
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quote:Whooa Nelly! Isn't that a rare one?
Originally posted by Chops124-June 08 2020: 9:03:39 PM
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Well, this is rare in that is a prototype, in that Tyco never made it. However, Chops, I think you're referring to the WP GP20, which is rare indeed, yet not as rare as this "Pre-Pod" obviously.
Image credit to Worthpoint.com
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in Heaven." - Matthew 5:16
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Posted - June 09 2020 : 09:11:10 AM
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| Besides the factory striping, how are you sure its a prototype and not just a, uh, mediocre custom? I thought when doing the prototypes they often left one side blank of all graphics.
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Posted - June 09 2020 : 10:56:30 AM
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5628?
looks more like 4301!
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Posted - June 09 2020 : 1:48:02 PM
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quote:5628?
looks more like 4301!
Originally posted by microbusss - June 09 2020 : 10:56:30 AM
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Yeah I noticed that it was 4301
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Posted - June 09 2020 : 10:44:51 PM
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Yeah, it is definitely 4301. That is what working 12+ hours at Dunkin' does to your brain.
No, not all of the Tyco "Pre-Pods" that have surfaced over the years have only 1 side painted. Alex, please check out all of the other prototype finds under this thread - you will be amazed.
I know this one is definitely not custom as the striping on the front is factory done (which would be impossible if the paint job was custom.) Also, the paint lines (especially in the orange on the front "nose" of the locomotive) is too perfect for a custom job. Although the paint job is prototype-quality (not that great) it is above that of a custom job. Definitely.
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in Heaven." - Matthew 5:16
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Edited by - RP model railroads on June 09 2020 10:45:54 PM
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Posted - June 10 2020 : 01:06:31 AM
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The paint is most interesting, including the
orange paint over on the rear number plates.
I like the slivering out of the number boards and
may imitate that feature on a few of my projects.
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Posted - June 10 2020 : 08:57:18 AM
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quote:The paint is most interesting, including the
orange paint over on the rear number plates.
I like the slivering out of the number boards and
may imitate that feature on a few of my projects.
Originally posted by Chops124Â -Â June 10 2020Â :Â 01:06:31 AM
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I like to black out the number board then use a silver sharpie to highlight the numbers 
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Posted - June 10 2020 : 9:17:36 PM
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| Better yet.
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Posted - June 11 2020 : 11:51:33 AM
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Not to rain on anyone's parade here, but how do we really determine if it is a pre-production model and not just a repaint? In looking at others pre-prods, some have mentioned only one side mocked up and accompanying blank box that is hand lettered on the flap as to the contents. But even that would be inconclusive for these locos you recently purchased.
Looking at the photos, I see plenty of decal film from commercially printed decal sets. Many decal sets have hi-vis angled striping. As to the ends being painted different colors by the coupler, that would be inconclusive as the modeler's whim with a brush or spray can.
The thing that sets off my "home-brew paint job alarm" is the silver paint over the number boards and the base red by the head lights. That is simply not masking off the number boards and sloppy painting around the lights. Have you opened it up and looked for overspray paint on the inside. My first guess is that it is a red Burlington loco someone painted over.
The black loco in your other thread runs into the same issues. But particularly, the mismatch in fonts and white opacity in the numbers and the main lettering. The Southern Pacific lettering uses a Roman font marked with serifs and the cab number is much brighter and uses a modern sans-serif font. Had Tyco done decals for the whole unit, all the graphics would be the same opacity and brightness of white- unless, of course, they did actually grab bits and pieces of various decal sets...
So I am not saying they couldn't be pre-prods, but I would be suspect of the seller's claims that they were.
But if that's the case, you're in good company with museums and professional art dealers and historians who have misidentified forgeries as the real deals.
In any case, they are nice units and great additions to your collection- Enjoy them as unique specimens.
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Posted - June 11 2020 : 10:37:06 PM
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Very good points here, as it is difficult to determine a real pre-pod from a custom job. For starters, neither one of the sellers I bought both of my pre-pods from, claimed they were pre-production units - as a a Tyco Collector, it is what I determined.....
Here's how I know the Southern Pacific GP20 is a pre-pod:
For starters, the black paint is not custom, as it is factory-quality. Also, it is impossible to explain the fact that the "5628" below the cab windows are factory-painted on the shell, while the other logos and "Southern Pacific" roadname are decals. No custom job would feature factory-painted numbers and decals, as first off, it is impossible to paint numbers factory-quality, by hand. I understand that it would make sense that they should have used decals with all the same font, but as there is no way to explain the factory-painted numbers and decal mix, then it is indeed a prototype. Also, nobody customizing a loco would use decals and then spray-paint numbers on, that appear like factory quality, which would take quite a bit of effort.
For the Western Pacific C430, this was very difficult even for me to determine, however I agree the silver paint job over the number boards is sloppy, however, the interior of the shell doesn't have overspray, (it is silver.) Also, I understand that it is possible for an airbrush to paint the intricate orange detailing on the front of the locomotive, however, there is no explanation for the striping on the front and rear (and NO, they are not decals.) I don't even think an airbrush could have done this, and let's say if someone was this talented, would they really focus on getting the striping so perfect, but make the silver paint job so sloppy, on their own model???? Also, no person customizing this loco would have decided to use different truck covers on the front & rear trucks, after spending the time to paint the shell. It just doesn't make sense. After answering the same doubts myself, I have no other explanation than to conclude that these are pre-pods.
I've looked through the entire pre-pod gallery, and many examples have clear usage of decals, including the neat "Rock Island" Shark where the decal striping is literally peeling off. Also, in doing so, I've seen many such comments where there is serious doubt of the authenticity of such finds, and while I do agree, that these are a bit sketchy to determine, I'm pretty confident that these are pre-pods.
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in Heaven." - Matthew 5:16
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Posted - June 12 2020 : 09:30:09 AM
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| I looked over the pictures again. And took a closer look. Only the stripes on the front are perfect, the ones on the rear, you can see many imperfections. If the stripes on the front were not perfect, it would be a custom job. At this point, for me, that is the only thing about it that still proves it is a pre pod.
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Posted - June 12 2020 : 3:37:18 PM
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quote:I looked over the pictures again. And took a closer look. Only the stripes on the front are perfect, the ones on the rear, you can see many imperfections. If the stripes on the front were not perfect, it would be a custom job. At this point, for me, that is the only thing about it that still proves it is a pre pod.
Originally posted by BlaxlandAlex3Â -Â June 12 2020Â :Â 09:30:09 AM
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The only way to prove a piece is a true Tyco factory prototype is to have some sort of documentation, aka "provenance". Paperwork, photos, a letter from a ex-Tyco employee....something of that nature. These things would be incredibly easy to reproduce with any old Tyco loco, a set of decals, paint, and a box.
I'm not saying it is or it isn't, and it's a moot point if it's not going to be sold as such.
This goes for any collectible piece. You can point out ways it likely is a prototype loco, but it's really just an opinion.
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Posted - June 12 2020 : 9:36:48 PM
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quote: quote:I looked over the pictures again. And took a closer look. Only the stripes on the front are perfect, the ones on the rear, you can see many imperfections. If the stripes on the front were not perfect, it would be a custom job. At this point, for me, that is the only thing about it that still proves it is a pre pod.
Originally posted by BlaxlandAlex3Â -Â June 12 2020Â :Â 09:30:09 AM
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The only way to prove a piece is a true Tyco factory prototype is to have some sort of documentation, aka "provenance". Paperwork, photos, a letter from a ex-Tyco employee....something of that nature. These things would be incredibly easy to reproduce with any old Tyco loco, a set of decals, paint, and a box.
I'm not saying it is or it isn't, and it's a moot point if it's not going to be sold as such.
This goes for any collectible piece. You can point out ways it likely is a prototype loco, but it's really just an opinion.
Originally posted by Crown Vic-June 12 2020: 3:37:18 PM
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Very true, and unfortunately, there was no documentation to verify the absolute authenticity of both of my possible pre-pod locomotives, however, there are points that cannot be explained that in my opinion, verify that these are indeed not custom jobs.
The factory-painted "5628" numbers on both sides of the Southern Pacific GP20 - it is not custom. And no custom job would include a mix of both decals and factory-painted numbers.
The EMD "Bloomberg" truck covers vs. Alco truck covers on the Western Pacific C430 - the Bloomberg trucks are not glued on, and if it was a custom, someone would have had to screw on a whole new bottom plate on the front truck, then. And yes, the striping on the rear of the locomotive is a bit off, but still, as these are not decals, the attention to detail is extreme, and just doesn't match with the theory that it is a custom. Again, no one would invest the time in customizing the striping to a T, and then do a poor job on the rest of the paint, and paint over the number boards. In-explainable in terms of custom work.
However, without any form of verification, both of my locomotives remain a mystery, which is the fun of being a collector. I'm convinced they are pre-pods, but either way, they remain open to theory.
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in Heaven." - Matthew 5:16
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Posted - June 13 2020 : 09:15:58 AM
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quote: quote: quote:I looked over the pictures again. And took a closer look. Only the stripes on the front are perfect, the ones on the rear, you can see many imperfections. If the stripes on the front were not perfect, it would be a custom job. At this point, for me, that is the only thing about it that still proves it is a pre pod.
Originally posted by BlaxlandAlex3Â -Â June 12 2020Â :Â 09:30:09 AM
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The only way to prove a piece is a true Tyco factory prototype is to have some sort of documentation, aka "provenance". Paperwork, photos, a letter from a ex-Tyco employee....something of that nature. These things would be incredibly easy to reproduce with any old Tyco loco, a set of decals, paint, and a box.
I'm not saying it is or it isn't, and it's a moot point if it's not going to be sold as such.
This goes for any collectible piece. You can point out ways it likely is a prototype loco, but it's really just an opinion.
Originally posted by Crown Vic-June 12 2020: 3:37:18 PM
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Very true, and unfortunately, there was no documentation to verify the absolute authenticity of both of my possible pre-pod locomotives, however, there are points that cannot be explained that in my opinion, verify that these are indeed not custom jobs.
The factory-painted "5628" numbers on both sides of the Southern Pacific GP20 - it is not custom. And no custom job would include a mix of both decals and factory-painted numbers.
The EMD "Bloomberg" truck covers vs. Alco truck covers on the Western Pacific C430 - the Bloomberg trucks are not glued on, and if it was a custom, someone would have had to screw on a whole new bottom plate on the front truck, then. And yes, the striping on the rear of the locomotive is a bit off, but still, as these are not decals, the attention to detail is extreme, and just doesn't match with the theory that it is a custom. Again, no one would invest the time in customizing the striping to a T, and then do a poor job on the rest of the paint, and paint over the number boards. In-explainable in terms of custom work.
However, without any form of verification, both of my locomotives remain a mystery, which is the fun of being a collector. I'm convinced they are pre-pods, but either way, they remain open to theory.
Originally posted by RP model railroads - June 12 2020 : 9:36:48 PM
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All good points, and the most important one is that you are happy with it. It IS definitely a mystery!
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Posted - June 13 2020 : 09:37:51 AM
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| Let's hunt down some TYCO employees. We want answers!
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 Posted - June 13 2020 : 10:24:19 AM
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Theory and conjecture are irrelevant as far as I am concern.
The item looks nice and Robert is satisfied with it.
That is good enough in the end.
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 Posted - June 13 2020 : 11:51:29 AM
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quote:
Theory and conjecture are irrelevant as far as I am concern.
The item looks nice and Robert is satisfied with it.
That is good enough in the end.
Originally posted by wks - June 13 2020 : 10:24:19 AM
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And that is what matters.
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Posted - June 13 2020 : 9:30:29 PM
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quote: quote:
Theory and conjecture are irrelevant as far as I am concern.
The item looks nice and Robert is satisfied with it.
That is good enough in the end.
Originally posted by wks - June 13 2020 : 10:24:19 AM
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And that is what matters.
Originally posted by BlaxlandAlex3-June 13 2020: 11:51:29 AM
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Indeed. However, I would love to actually speak to a former Tyco employee someday, either of the New Jersey plant or the Hong Kong plant, and get their perspective/s. That would be amazing.
Who knows. If I visit enough train shows....
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in Heaven." - Matthew 5:16
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Edited by - RP model railroads on June 13 2020 9:31:01 PM
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Posted - June 14 2020 : 09:14:40 AM
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| Tough luck during these times. I've been itching for a show for the longest time!
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Posted - June 15 2020 : 9:11:44 PM
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Here's a video and short summary of my find which accompanied my video on YT. Please enjoy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb-zJyDu7OA&t=9s
I believe what I have here is yet another TYCO "Pre-Pod" - a Western Pacific RR ALCO C430! Seemingly custom at first glance, there are several key observations I've made which in my opinion, certify that this is indeed a pre-production locomotive. For starters, both of the black striping patterns on the front & rear of the locomotive are factory quality paint (NOT decals,) and there is no overspray on the interior of the locomotive. Not to mention the difference in truck covers; the front truck surprisingly sports TYCO's EMD "Bloomberg" trucks, while the rear features the typical ALCO/Baldwin truck covers. No one customizing a locomotive would have made such a decision.
Although a theory, this locomotive is by far my favorite possible pre-pod find out of the 2 so far in my collection, and is right at home on RETRO TYCO!
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in Heaven." - Matthew 5:16
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Posted - June 16 2020 : 12:35:20 AM
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| Runs like a gem, looks amazing. Not so much as a flicker.
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Posted - June 20 2020 : 3:41:17 PM
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| how often do these prototypes show up on ebay?
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Posted - June 21 2020 : 10:40:55 PM
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quote:how often do these prototypes show up on ebay?
Originally posted by Erik The Train Nerd-June 20 2020: 3:41:17 PM
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Not often, to say the least. I've been a Tyco collector for at least 4 years now and this year was the first time I've ever seen anything that even resembled a pre-pod locomotive appear on Ebay. And I consider myself quite fortunate to have obtained 2 strong prototype candidates.
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in Heaven." - Matthew 5:16
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Posted - June 22 2020 : 8:18:10 PM
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Here is a Western Pacific Alco FA-1, made in the USA. HObbyline.
frnk.
toptrain
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Posted - June 22 2020 : 9:09:32 PM
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| Nice! I just now notice the brass horns
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Posted - June 22 2020 : 9:27:22 PM
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LOVE the retro-e-goodness of those FA's, Frank! Awesome.
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in Heaven." - Matthew 5:16
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Posted - June 22 2020 : 11:29:51 PM
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| Frank's "Dawn of HO" collection is killer.
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Posted - June 26 2020 : 1:40:38 PM
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Very interesting find.
I'm not too sure on it being a prototype. It's really hard to say whether it is or isn't however my vote (which carries no weight) is that it is just a home-made Tyco Alco 430 WP.
Is it cool?
Absolutely.
It's a cool find regardless and any Tyco collector would be happy to have it in their collection. It definitely makes me want to try to make one.
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