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 Posted - December 01 2014 : 11:21:12 PM
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I got a 1950's Mantua Pacific at a train show with a freight car for $30 a month or so ago. But sadly, it had a couple of problems I had to fix. One of them that I finally got fixed today. Unfortunately though, within minutes after my little "victory", this happened.
The linkage for this thing cracked much like those cheap Bachmanns from the 70s and 80s. And when this happened, I heard a crack and the power pack overloaded. After that, anytime I turned the power up, I hear a buzzing sound from the locomotive. First the front truck problem (understandable), next the wire problem (also somewhat understandable), now this?! Good gosh, I feel like this thing is against me.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
Edited by - kovacste000 on December 02 2014 10:07:23 AM
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Posted - December 02 2014 : 08:33:59 AM
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What's the other side look like? Usually, when the old Bachmanns did this, it was because the wheel spun in the hollow axle and got out of quarter. Mantuas tend to hold their place on the axle better, so this looks like what would happen if a crank pin fell out or the connecting rod on the other side bent or broke. If so, it might not be a very hard repair.
Carpe Manana!
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Posted - December 02 2014 : 08:49:05 AM
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I'm with shaggy, For a Mantua you should show both sides. They don't go out of quarter often. Usually it means a side rod screw fell out. Or you need another driver.
frank
toptrain
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Posted - December 02 2014 : 09:14:20 AM
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Alright, here's the other side.
Oh, and when this happened yesterday, the wheel on the other side fell off but I was able to get it back on before taking the first photo. On top of that, I do believe one of the connecting rods were bent at some point yesterday, along with the fact that the locomotive started acting up on corners again before that happened for some bizarre reason. And another thing, my parents are calling this thing a piece of junk, I'm wondering if I should think the same thing.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
Edited by - kovacste000 on December 02 2014 09:43:36 AM
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Posted - December 02 2014 : 09:35:09 AM
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Well, definitely the fact that the wheel fell off is important. I imagine that when it was acting up, the wheel was already coming loose. I don't know if there's a handy way to fix that or not.
If you have to go shopping for a new wheelset, be aware that there are two kinds of tire. The ones like yours have a lower profile tire and the big pizza cutter flanges. Newer ones have the same wheels and axle, but the tire is higher and the flanges are lower so mixing a new wheel with the old ones would result in different diameters at the tread. That's a bit incompatible when all the wheels are linked together and turning at the same rpm.
Carpe Manana!
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Posted - December 02 2014 : 09:53:00 AM
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| The whole rear driver is out of quarter. Look at the position of the counter weight on the rear driver, I would say approximately 1/8 turn out. All the counter weights should be in the same position relative to each other on the same side.
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Posted - December 02 2014 : 10:38:59 AM
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k:
I posted some info about quartering and some Autobus soapboxing over on your other thread. Copypasta here for posterity...
k:
<AUTOBUS SOAPBOX>
Truism: The average person's "junk" is the resourceful mechanic's "learning experience". A person who habitually takes that experience when it becomes available gains insight and pushes himself out of the primeval fog that clouds the average person's eyes when looking at technology. Those who the average person sees as technical wizards (and annoys to death whenever anything breaks) are simply those who took the experience enough times. You've leveled up once with the first fix, let's diagnose this and attempt a fix, and maybe level up again...
</AUTOBUS SOAPBOX>
Your driving wheel is slipped. This happened on old Bachmanns for a different reason. On those, the axles were half-axles, connected by a brittle plastic sleeve. The sleeve cracked and allowed slippage. Your driver has slipped on its metal axle. The Mantua assembly is fixable without purchasing new OEM parts.
The loco probably started having trouble on curves when the driver started working loose. Wheel gauge has to be narrower than the track gauge. Too-wide wheel gauge and the loco will derail, and it will show up first on curves. Curves are curved, and rigid wheelbases are not. Too-wide wheelsets get pinched out.
You can press the driving wheel back on with some Loctite. The Loctite may help keep it in place if the fit isn't as tight as it should be. It looks like the insulated driver is the one that came loose, so no worries about losing electrical pickup on that wheel.
There is one further wrinkle to this learning experience: Quarter. Driving wheels are set with their crankpins rotated 90 degrees apart. This is needed to avoid 'dead spots' where all crankpins on both sides are in line with the axle centers. At this point, forces pulling on the rods could potentially rotate the wheel either way just as easily. This shows up in real life as a crank mechanism locking and binding. You can put together some Lego Technic gears with connecting rods to observe this in action.
At any rate, you will have to set these drivers in quarter. There are jigs for this but they cost a lot. You can do without the jig using a hard, flat surface, a steel straightedge, a reasonably accurate 90 degree square, and a reasonably accurate eyeball:
Hard flat surfaces can be a scrap piece of thick window glass (plate glass is best but modern window glass is probably close enough) or ground flat steel, stone, or iron. A piece of marble or granite countertop might well be flat enough.
Take all your driving wheel sets out and measure the good ones first, in your quartering setup. This will show you what the assembly should look like. Note that the quarter angle does not have to be exactly 90 degrees as long as it is the same on all driver sets.
Wheel gauge (spacing) is also important. If you don't have a NMRA sheet-metal gauge, measure what the other two driving wheelsets are with your 6 inch steel scale, and press yours to the same distance. That should be close, anyway. :)
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Posted - December 02 2014 : 10:51:59 AM
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Thanks AP,
Your soapbox was very informative. I can really use this information to help me restore an old time MDC 2-8-0.
Regards John
Good judgement come from experience, and experience comes from a lack of good Judgement <> Junior
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Posted - December 02 2014 : 11:02:03 AM
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quote:Thanks AP,
Your soapbox was very informative. I can really use this information to help me restore an old time MDC 2-8-0.
Regards John
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No problem, I'm always up for a 'cranky' rant. :D
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Posted - December 02 2014 : 12:42:54 PM
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Hey Stephen, if you want some help with that repair I will be glad to do it for you. PM me and I will send you my address so you can mail it.
Randy
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Posted - December 02 2014 : 6:35:18 PM
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AP,
I second what John said. This poor man's quartering jig looks like just the thing for someone who wants to fix an out of quarter driver without owning every tool in the store for one repair. I appreciate that kind of resourcefulness. 
Carpe Manana!
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Posted - December 02 2014 : 6:36:36 PM
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It's hardly a piece of junk. It's a 60 year old model locomotive, and just like the real thing requires maintenance. Just be glad you don't have to re-flue the boiler.
The wheel centers look intact; as others have said the driver just slipped. Mantua axles are only slightly knurled (ridged) on the ends, so it's not impossible for one to work loose. I would take Randy up on his offer if you'd rather not attempt quartering them yourself. Replacement driver sets for these Pacifics are also very easy to find, but newer ones (60's onward) will have smaller flanges.
Nice diagram, Autobus.  I have pretty good luck eyeballing it with all the drivers in the frame, then gluing the loose driver(s) once they match and all side rod play is even.
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - December 02 2014 : 8:09:16 PM
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quote:Hey Stephen, if you want some help with that repair I will be glad to do it for you. PM me and I will send you my address so you can mail it.
Originally posted by rbturner - December 02 2014 : 12:42:54 PM
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I think I might do that as long as it's okay with my parents. I'll get back to you guys on that within a few days or so hopefully.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
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Posted - December 02 2014 : 10:14:15 PM
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quote: quote:Hey Stephen, if you want some help with that repair I will be glad to do it for you. PM me and I will send you my address so you can mail it.
Originally posted by rbturner - December 02 2014 : 12:42:54 PM
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I think I might do that as long as it's okay with my parents. I'll get back to you guys on that within a few days or so hopefully.
Originally posted by kovacste000Â -Â December 02 2014Â :Â 8:09:16 PM
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Stephen,
I have tons of spare drivers. PM me your address and I'll send you a driver. I''ll even include a socket wrench for you to use and keep to help with the repair, tightening & loosening of the brass hex-head shoulder screws. You'll round the heads if you try to use anything else. Let me know if you need any of those too.
Sean
"If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti!
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Posted - December 13 2014 : 7:00:20 PM
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Alright guys, I finally set out to fix the issue once and for all.Today, I sent the Pacific in to my local hobby shop for them to fix and I found that I'm gonna have to pay at least $25 total for the loco on top of the fact that I won't be getting it back for about 4-5 weeks. Take a look a the card.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
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Posted - December 13 2014 : 10:11:35 PM
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Why did you take it to a hobby shop and pay extra when Sean would give you the parts? 
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - December 14 2014 : 12:08:08 PM
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quote:Why did you take it to a hobby shop and pay extra when Sean would give you the parts?
Originally posted by NickelPlate759Â -Â December 13 2014Â :Â 10:11:35 PM
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For one thing, I didn't want to break the locomotive even more than by doing all of that on my own along with the fact that I'm fairly confident that the hobby shop can fix the issue and any other possible issues that might've come up afterwards. On top of that, I kinda forgot about that because of other important matters like school, clubs, etc. I'm sorry.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
Edited by - kovacste000 on December 14 2014 12:22:04 PM
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Posted - December 15 2014 : 09:39:29 AM
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Knowing one's limitations is very important Stephen - you made the right choice. Also nice to see support of a LHS.
rich p
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Posted - December 15 2014 : 09:43:31 AM
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quote:Knowing one's limitations is very important Stephen - you made the right choice. Also nice to see support of a LHS.
Originally posted by richard p - December 15 2014 : 09:39:29 AM
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Thanks, Richard.You see, hobby shops are a very important part of model railroading. Seriously, there's nothing like walking into a hobby shop or train show and seeing all the possible purchases everywhere. Not even Ebay or websites where you can buy model trains can truly emulate it.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
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Posted - January 10 2015 : 11:03:56 PM
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She's back from the shops and running like brand new now. She even got here wheels cleaned and wire replaced.Here's a photo of her as of now.
http://www.tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/uploaded/kovacste000/20150110230021_IMG_0881.JPG
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
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Posted - January 11 2015 : 07:11:10 AM
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* Congratulations " Good to see the old girl running again. If you have those Mantua 4-6-2 and 2-8-2 locos you should have a spare set of drivers somewhere for them. It does help and give a little piece of mind.
* Long and happy running !
toptrain
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Posted - January 11 2015 : 11:13:30 AM
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Very glad to hear that she is OK.
Randy
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Posted - January 11 2015 : 12:20:29 PM
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Thanks, guys.After I got it back, they told me not to run it fast, which I'm guessing is why the wheel came loose and stuff to begin with. I guess the model is a bit sensitive to that sort of stuff.
-Steve
"A lot of modellers out there who go to these train shows see broken HO stuff and go, 'This is useless' when, in reality, they can still be used for modeling whether it's as a prop on your layout or a cool project to make something old new again."
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