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 Posted - February 28 2012 : 05:35:52 AM
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I was reading the MR general forum last night and a thread about "train yard shops" was posted by a fellow who wanted some info on appropriate buildings and such for his layout's servicing area. A number of replies were given in response, mine included (Cedarwoodron). Then some guy made a crass comment which apparently upset the OP, resulting in the thread being locked.
That is a good example of what I have been seeing more of lately on the MR forums- and why I like this one.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and as much as some think they are einsteins of model railroading, there is always someone else coming along who may claim greater wisdom.
Sometimes it's the purists or rivet counters who do this, other times, it may be just a particular poster's personality. Everyone should be able to look to these forums as a resource, not a way to raise blood pressure.
(That is why I'm glad that teenager issue from last fall is settled.)
As much as I need advice and help is as much as I also try to offer the same, when I am capable of doing so myself. Let's make sure that we don't let these snarky attitudes I have seen elsewhere infect this forum, as others have been.
Just my thoughts...
Siouxlake/Ron
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Posted - February 28 2012 : 08:57:58 AM
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For fun Ron I went and found that thread. The OP did confuse things a little by saying "Present Day" then go into talking about steam engines. But I went off and read a few more of his post and he's doing his own thing. Nothing wrong with that. Also the battle between those two guys extends beyond that post so that's playing into it.
All that said, ignorance is not a rarity on those forums. I like these forums well because if I post a picture of my uber detailed MTH K4 parked next to my 20 year old Chessie F7 (no F7's were ever painted by Chessie), I get questions wondering if the F7 is Bachmann or Life-like lol.
I have a rivet counter friend who always says that buying whatever I want will be the end of me in this hobby because eventually I'll end up with no focus and a ton of random engines. Yea I'm totally fine with that  To be fair half the engine's he wants for his prototype makes my buying habits look like childs play. He's so freaking picky that I don't ever think he'll get started on building the layout for his prototype. He's so worried about everything being 100% perfect. I guess that is fun for some people? But its a hobby, you put into it what you want to get back out of it.
One more rant. A local RR club runs a very well detailed protoypical local route that's based in the late 50's. NOTHING that is not within the prototype road or era is allowed onto the layout since the layout actually serves as a museum piece showing the history of the area back in the old days. Here is the kicker though, due to several factors the layout features two roads. One prototypical, one fantasy which is really a combo of 2-3 real life railroads that existed in that era. So the fantasy railroad on the layout gives them some liberty to show off engines that might not have existed in this area. Man has THAT caused some issues lol. When we were there we talked to some of the members as we toured the layout. You can tell there are some "divided" opinions if you point to certian engines and ask why they are there hehe.
And now for a picture of a railroad based in the year 2063!
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Posted - February 28 2012 : 10:03:42 AM
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Hey Ron:
Important to distinguish between legitimate differences and "snarky". Easiset way I find to tell, is whether the criticism is of someones actions (position/opinion) or them (Ad hominem).
-Gareth
"A is A"
-Aristotle
Law of Identification
Edited by - romcat on February 28 2012 10:07:01 AM
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Posted - February 28 2012 : 10:23:26 AM
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You know, it's one thing to be attentive to detail for historical purpose, but as I am not building a diorama for a technology museum, where inattention to detail and inaccuracy would make my work product less than satisfactory, I- like most of us- do it for the sheer fun of the trains themselves. Designing a "what-if" railroad theme or alternate scenario is an expression of creativity, and keeps your wits working as time takes it's toll over the years.
I am willing to bet that many hobbyists are in better mental shape as they hit the final stretch because they keep themselves mentally active in their respective hobby. I am not a fine scale modeler of planes or tanks, but I can sure appreciate careful work done by someone who took time and effort to detail a Russian T-34 or a 1960 F-102 fighter model.
Getting back to topic, this poster on MR may be mixing his metaphors, so to speak, but if he gets satisfaction from it, fine by me. I am not grading him on accuracy, but I am willing to give him an A for his efforts!
Could be worse- this could be a political forum, and then boy, would the fur fly!!!!!!!
May your engine house be busy and your RIP tracks be full of projects!
Ron
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Posted - February 28 2012 : 11:46:11 AM
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I don't like the rivet counting group. Thats why I hang out here at the TF. Nobody seems to wanna run trains for fun. They all get serious and everything has to be perfect or else.... I own a majority of steam and a few newer style diesels and they all run side by side. From a 4-4-0 to a U36B. I do appricatate fine work and my N scale layout of the future will exhibit this. After all, John Allen is my role model.
" Heck with counting 'em rivets, TRAINS ARE FOR FUN! Not called the Mad Scientist for nothing either!"
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Posted - February 28 2012 : 12:12:37 PM
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quote:.... I'll end up with... a ton of random engines. ...
Originally posted by ChrisCÂ -Â February 28 2012Â :Â 08:57:58 AM
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And the problem with that is????
By the way, Chris, nice looking backdrop that's painted on your wall. I would like to do something similar if I ever get a layout room.
Unspoken expectations are premeditated failures.
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Posted - February 28 2012 : 12:41:11 PM
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quote: quote:.... I'll end up with... a ton of random engines. ...
Originally posted by ChrisCÂ -Â February 28 2012Â :Â 08:57:58 AM
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And the problem with that is????
Originally posted by NC shortlines - February 28 2012 : 12:12:37 PM
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None at all. I'm well on my way to that point already why stop now My goal is to someday take awesome locomotive group photos like Toptrain does haha.
What's funny is my rivet counter friend has a closet FULL of maybe 100+ engines and God knows how much rolling stock. He's been stockpiling for a layout for so long that some of the engines he bought years ago have been superceeded by newer stuff. So he sold off the older ones ( good for me ) to replace them with newer sound capeable or higher detailed units. But he's got boxes of PK2's, Stewarts, and some Atlas engines maybe 10 years old and they haven't even been out of the box. Some of my first decent running & pulling engines I bought few years back were orginal Atlas RS-3 units with Kato drives. Brand new and fantastic pulling engines. But he replaced them when Atlas re-released them with higher levels of detail.
I told him if he ever builds a layout I'll help. I constantly get on his case that him buying engines to stockpile is as bad as me buying whatever I want lol. He's agreed to let some of my stuff come up and run as interchange engines on his layout if it does happen haha.
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Posted - February 28 2012 : 2:14:21 PM
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The thing to remember is there's no real right or wrong way to go about the hobby - everyone has their own objectives, budgets, approaches, and primary facets of enjoyment. I do however believe that everyone should sample "everything" it has to offer, in all philosophies, so as to better determine where their own affections lie. And especially before passing judgment, not that experience entitles them to.
I like to think I have done most of it. I have competed and won in NMRA AP contests and built and photographed convincing scenes. I've also kitbashed and built cars to match prototypes as closely as possible within my means. This takes a surprising amount of effort - what seems so matter-of-fact simple on the page or screen is so difficult to pull off - one's skill advances rapidly in the attempt, and contempt for the craft all but vanishes.
That said, I still remember my roots, and have far too many Tycos and other "inferior" equipment than most serious modelers. I'm not even sure I call myself serious. I have box of equipment I have put effort and time into, and a layout that presents itself well... well enough to be on the cover of a national hobby mag (as it soon will be). But most of it is simple Athearn bluebox stuff with middling detail.
I find Model Railroading to be like producing a movie: you have your "stars" (well detailed engines and cars), key set pieces (buildings, scenery, etc), and objectives for the script. But everything else is a bit player. Not everything needs to be perfect. Once a few good locos and cars hook the viewer, the rest just falls into place if it meets a consistent standard.
But I like cartoons too, and Tyco, et al fills that role nicely. Imagination is what this hobby was founded on.... and itself more laudable than armchair modeling and closet stuffing. Anybody can buy the same stuff - it's all a budgetary whizzing contest. DOING something with it is what matters.
As long as you're doing something that appeals to you, and doesn't interfere with the next guy, there's no harm done. Like any art, it's all in the eye of the artist, and all subject to interpretation.
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Posted - February 28 2012 : 5:09:49 PM
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Nicely put Tony.
Prototype modelling isn't for everyone. For some it is fun, perhaps enjoyable is a better word to build to the highest degree. I like metaphysics, some people like comic books. As Tony said I'm paraphrasing here: French kiss it all BABY!!!! 
-Gareth
"A is A"
-Aristotle
Law of Identification
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Posted - February 28 2012 : 8:37:57 PM
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Thanks for posting this. I was thinking the same thing today. Specifically, I was thinking about those who look down on things like 18 inch curves or other rivet counting issues. It's all a matter of compromise. Every layout is a compromise, the question is at what level are you comfortable with your layout. Even the most accurate prototypical layouts compromise on some level. Do all the windows open and close on the buildings? Do they have working AC? Of course not. We all draw the line somewhere. My layout has a crazy yard that only holds like 10 small tankers while the one I modeled it on holds hundreds. Would I want a scale accurate yard in my basement? Of course not, it would take up the entire room and be a waste of space. I'm comfortable with the compromises I've made for the sake of having a layout that works for me. It is frustrating when people are not respectful of the modeling decisions of others because they think where they happened to draw the line on compromises is better than where someone else drew the line. It is 100% arbitrary. Happy the TycoForum welcomes everyone of all levels, abilities and interests.
~CamdenLine
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Posted - February 28 2012 : 8:46:31 PM
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Actually I got pressed for time when I wrote that earlier, and forgot to expand the "movie" analogy a bit, to where it makes more sense...
So... we all know there are different movie genres: drama, action, comedy, thriller, etc.... as well as hybrids. So too can a model railroad be produced to fall into into one one more categories. Yet within any movie genre you can have several approaches - from the meticulously crafted period piece, to the abstract, to the fantastical, to the contemporary day-to-day. And while everyone might have a preference for one genre and style over another, not many of those same people will refute another entirely out of hand. We all know good movies when we see them - it matters not if we "like" them or not. Some movies become cult classics - as are some railroads. Some movies are so bad they're almost good in an ironic sense - hello, Tyco (and Lionel). Some of the most beloved movies never even dared to play to the Academy, but had enormous popular appeal - hello, museums and N-trak.
So too, then, it should be with model railroads, and our opinions of one versus another. There's no right or wrong "genre". Just different levels of craft within each.
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Posted - February 28 2012 : 8:49:08 PM
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Tyco = "Hudson Hawk" Love that movie!
-Gareth
"A is A"
-Aristotle
Law of Identification
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Posted - February 28 2012 : 10:28:31 PM
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Jack Benny: Oh, Rochester!
Rochester : Yes, boss?
Jack: I had no idea that one silly little comment would create such a fuss! Will you look at all the people who had something to say!
Rochester: Mmmmmmm, ain't that something!
Jack: Yes, it seems that this forum has some good folks on it!
Rochester: That's right, boss, real good folks, and smart, too!
Jack: After all, they do love trains. Which reminds me, did you pack the bags for tomorrow? We are on the El Capitan at 9AM at Union Station.
Rochester: Yes I sure did, Mr. Benny. I even got you a ride up front with the engineer!
Jack Benny: No!
Rochester: Yessir, and it only cost $5.00 more.
Jack Benny: You mean you mean you PAID more for the tickets?
Rochester: No boss, I paid the fireman- he's my brother-in-law!
And with that, it's time to say good night!
Siouxlake/Ron
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Posted - February 28 2012 : 10:48:01 PM
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quote:
I find Model Railroading to be like producing a movie: you have your "stars" (well detailed engines and cars), key set pieces (buildings, scenery, etc), and objectives for the script. But everything else is a bit player.
Originally posted by spiderj76Â -Â February 28 2012Â :Â 2:14:21 PM
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"The Art of Model Railroading" Parts 1-5, Model Railroader magazine, 1959...
I'm a rivet counting snob...I just hide it well....
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Posted - February 28 2012 : 11:07:00 PM
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quote:
"The Art of Model Railroading" Parts 1-5, Model Railroader magazine, 1959...
Originally posted by shaygetz - February 28 2012 : 10:48:01 PM
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O.O You're kidding, right? Please tell me you are, because that's too damn eerie otherwise. I've never read any MRs older than like 1970-something; any older and they're generally too disgustingly musty and/or disintegrating to touch...
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Posted - February 28 2012 : 11:10:43 PM
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I have some from them, not all Aromatic...
Oh and for the few in the know, I am getting a "dividing head" in a trade for my Unimat! Inching ever close to custom gear production!
-Gareth
"A is A"
-Aristotle
Law of Identification
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Posted - February 29 2012 : 07:12:58 AM
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quote:
O.O You're kidding, right? Please tell me you are, because that's too damn eerie otherwise. I've never read any MRs older than like 1970-something; any older and they're generally too disgustingly musty and/or disintegrating to touch...
Originally posted by spiderj76Â -Â February 28 2012Â :Â 11:07:00 PM
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Nope...it was even published by Kalbach in book form many years ago. Among other things, Frank was a set designer who was known for his ability to make you see things that weren't there, his most well known being his stone work that you had to touch to believe that it was simply painted on flat stock.
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Posted - February 29 2012 : 11:48:22 AM
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Well, so much for trying to have an original thought!
(1959? Really?? Egad - my friends joke that for a tech guy I'm a hopeless throwback... suddenly I'm glad they're not model railraoders )
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Posted - February 29 2012 : 11:52:19 AM
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hi bob i have 2 off those books 1946/7 and 47/8 very interesting reading ken
oops its called trains
Edited by - catfordken on February 29 2012 12:08:00 PM
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Posted - February 29 2012 : 12:22:53 PM
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Hey Tony:
Excellent idea original thought! The world is way short of them. Trust me it's an honourable thing holding back the next Dark Ages!
and `59 awesome year!
-Gareth
"A is A"
-Aristotle
Law of Identification
Edited by - romcat on February 29 2012 12:32:56 PM
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Pierce
Big Six
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Posted - March 01 2012 : 6:04:14 PM
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quote: quote: quote:.... I'll end up with... a ton of random engines. ...
Originally posted by ChrisCÂ -Â February 28 2012Â :Â 08:57:58 AM
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And the problem with that is????
Originally posted by NC shortlines - February 28 2012 : 12:12:37 PM
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None at all. I'm well on my way to that point already why stop now
Originally posted by ChrisCÂ -Â February 28 2012Â :Â 12:41:11 PM
Ok good I thought I was the only nut out there who stockpiles engines now if I only had a layout big enough to run them all. Bottom shelf some of my Athearn GP-30's take that you rivet counters lol.
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Posted - March 04 2012 : 3:06:12 PM
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Souixlake-I wish that were so.
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Posted - March 04 2012 : 3:58:11 PM
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To be honest I don't care how my layout is gonna look Era? who really cares?? Modeling is for fun not accuracey Which I'm not going for authentic nope I is going to use Hot Wheels, Matchbox & other cars on my layout roads
Yes some are rivet counters well I'm not I'll go for what looks neat & stuff
Also some of the accesories that Tyco, Life-Like, Bachmann made or make aren't prototypical
For example the single sided crossings, bascule bridge or the signal man etc etc That really isn't real hehe
Edited by - microbusss on March 04 2012 4:02:35 PM
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Posted - March 08 2012 : 04:35:45 AM
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Put on "fun-brand model railroad glasses" and remove the age and ranking hierarchic ribbons.
Run your trains until there's a power outage. Light candles, burn incense, raise your arm if you run model trains, check to see if you can make a funny sound from your hand cupping your armpit, (as Rodney Dangerfield did on the diving board in "Back To School), and give rants, beefs and bouquets about the lack of electricity (er... unless you actually got a generator for emergencies as a power outage, then, if so, please disregard this notice, but still do the armpit thing)... then, do a roll test on the rails with your best (and worst) train cars, chalk up the length, (get new candles 'cuz the first lit ones are too short... light them, silly)... where was I?
Gosh dernnnit! HAVE FUN!!! or get out and let everyone else have fun. Shoe application to your caboose is optional upon your exit!
End sigh... and vented.
John
p.s. If you read my entry, you may be a member to this forum, so, the application of the shoes does not apply to you... or your caboose.
Carry on... Enjoy!
I don't have a one track mind. It depends on the turn-out.
"I love your catenary!"
Is that a power-trip or just another pick-up line?
Edited by - zebrails on March 08 2012 04:42:39 AM
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