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 Posted - June 28 2011 : 5:38:37 PM
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i'm wondering if any of you has ever remotored an ahm challenger or big boy? i know it won't be hard, but i don't know crap about motors. what i want is this.
I just bought an old ahm rivarossi challenger. It is beautiful & runs OK, but it doesn't have much power. i want more power without losing top end speed. if it gets faster that's fine too. which
motor would you recommend?
does anyone know what kind of rpm the factory rivarossi motor turns? i'll post a few links to some motors. tell me what you like & why.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Flat-can-Canon-motor-has-5-skewed-poles-high-power-/360334031988?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item53e594fc74
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360375190259&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120742183778&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
jerry
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Posted - June 29 2011 : 01:59:50 AM
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Jerry,
The third motor on your list is a bruiser, but looks too big to fit. The other two would probably suffice, though I don't know how they compare torque-wise to the original. I did some side-by-side comparisons when I was considering remotoring mine, and was surprised at how much torque the original motors have, because they bested everything I tried in it.
Don't forget these Igarashis, which are a great deal:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Igarashi-18X33mm-Flat-Can-Motors-New-Double-Shaft-/270774314311
There is a remotoring tutorial on steamlocomotive.com: http://www.steamlocomotive.com/model/remotoringbigboy.shtml
If you wanted a drop-in fit, these Canon motors are as close as you'll get, although they have less torque than the original motor, and are a lot slower. They will make it crawl.
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/DCM-300/12-VDC-IRON-CORE-MOTOR/1.html
I'm guessing the large Rossi motor is under 10,000 RPM at 12v, based on motors I've compared it to.
I'm just wondering why your Challenger is sluggish to begin with... have you ruled out any mechanical binds, cleaned dried grease out of the gearing, cleaned the commutator and brushes? A little tuneup can do wonders. My original 1975 Big Boy is still running strong.
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Posted - June 29 2011 : 02:17:31 AM
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it runs fine, but when i start putting more cars behind it it starts slowing down. it would most likley do better with some free rolling rolling stock, but right now i'm using old tyco cars with a lot of heavy drag. i think it's got 13 cars behind it now. it does ok i just want more.
i run them wide open because i'm used to lionel o gage stuff. i don't have a ho layout started so the only action i have is speed.
how does the Igarashi motor stack up to the factory rivarossi?
jerry
Edited by - smokie on June 29 2011 02:38:43 AM
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Posted - June 29 2011 : 8:44:35 PM
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I can't guarantee the Igarashi has as much torque as the original RR, but it will be far smoother at low speeds. I don't know how it would do in tractor pulls like that. NWSL reduction kits for the upper gearboxes would increase power while reducing speed significantly.
Traction was always a bigger problem than motor torque for me with my old Big Boy. I was able to haul a lot more with it than 13 cars, though. As for speed, these aren't tinplate locos, and while they were geared a little fast to begin with they won't be tearing around the layout like old Lionel or Flyer. Those who repower them are generally looking for speed reduction.
If you haven't already, I would concentrate on stripping out the old grease and replacing it with better modern lubes like those from LaBelle. Start simply with a tuneup and take it from there, and use some dry lube on your rolling stock journals.
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Posted - June 30 2011 : 5:27:11 PM
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| Try adding some weight to the locomotive over the drive wheels if possible. Tractive effort may be lost if there is not enough weight were it is needed. Lead fishing sinker can be hammered into all kinds of shapes.
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Posted - June 30 2011 : 10:28:22 PM
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Try: www.nwsl.com They have or had remotoring kits for the big AHM locos.
I'm in the process of remotoring my AHM y6b. If you got some $$$$$ go with a gearhead
motor.
Unspoken expectations are premeditated failures.
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Posted - July 01 2011 : 4:05:10 PM
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quote:Try adding some weight to the locomotive over the drive wheels if possible. Tractive effort may be lost if there is not enough weight were it is needed. Lead fishing sinker can be hammered into all kinds of shapes.
Originally posted by tkruger - June 30 2011 : 5:27:11 PM
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another idea is to find the lo temp meltable weight, Ive used this to add some weight into my mogul (still can use a bit more...still can't pull worth a dern...)
just me Ray... and just because I have Tyco doesn't mean I am not a model railroader
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Posted - March 27 2012 : 9:09:28 PM
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I've been repowering Rivarossi since the stone age....(No comment from the peanut galery Nelson LOL)
Heres a picture of what I done, on the last one I done, a Rivarossi Big Boy....
and a better one:
The Canon DN-22 is a POWERFULL motor (VERY torquey!), and the Igarashi is even more so..... I've got 10 of these awaiting repowewers!
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid... 
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - March 27 2012 : 10:27:32 PM
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quote:I've been repowering Rivarossi since the stone age....(No comment from the peanut galery Nelson LOL)
Originally posted by EM-1Â -Â March 27 2012Â :Â 9:09:28 PM
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I couldn't joke even if I wanted to... I'm older than you.  
It looks like that just involves cutting off the old motor mount and hogging out some of the plastic ribs on the cab casting. Those big screw bosses they put in the rear of the boiler drive me nuts... they're always in the way of a larger motor!
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Posted - March 28 2012 : 12:27:14 PM
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John,
I've got a Riva. Y6b to repower. Do you use the NWSL gearboxes or just repower with the Canon motor? Have you ever used the NWSL gearbox? I"m thinking of buying a pair.
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Posted - March 28 2012 : 7:02:00 PM
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quote: quote:I've been repowering Rivarossi since the stone age....(No comment from the peanut galery Nelson LOL)
Originally posted by EM-1Â -Â March 27 2012Â :Â 9:09:28 PM
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I couldn't joke even if I wanted to... I'm older than you.
It looks like that just involves cutting off the old motor mount and hogging out some of the plastic ribs on the cab casting. Those big screw bosses they put in the rear of the boiler drive me nuts... they're always in the way of a larger motor!
Originally posted by NickelPlate759Â -Â March 27 2012Â :Â 10:27:32 PM
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Sorry Nelson, yeah I have to agree with your first comment from our talks in e-mail before I ever joined!
As far as the repower goes, the Canon DN-22, is one torque-y motor, it runs well, (I think the RPMs is like 7,200, but please, don't quote me on that) They run about a scale 90 MPH, if you time it right, and under low voltage, run slow, and have an amazing amount of torque at low speeds.
Nice thing on the DN-22 is the fact that it runs silently, and unless you hear the drivers hit a rail joint, you don't even hear them at fast speeds, and at low speeds, only the sound of the rods can be heard......AND they are DCC friendly, (NOT that I'M DCC friendly!) ALL my own collection is regular ole Analog! Besides my newest addition.......The Bachmann Spectrum B&O EM-1!
Also I agree with the screw mount lug inside the boiler of Rivarossi, I am working on a way to eliminate them on ALL my repowers! 
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - March 28 2012 : 7:07:11 PM
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quote:John,
I've got a Riva. Y6b to repower. Do you use the NWSL gearboxes or just repower with the Canon motor? Have you ever used the NWSL gearbox? I"m thinking of buying a pair.
Originally posted by NC shortlines - March 28 2012 : 12:27:14 PM
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I've been repowering for awhile, BUT, I will say I have never needed to use the NWSL gearboxes! And must add to that, I haven't had an issue with the factory gearboxes, myself, others have and I have replaced them with replacements from the factory.....Biggest issue, is that most don't keep them well greased and then the steel worm, chews the brass gear into gearbox "gold dust" which is a real issue once it even begins!
I am however building a custom 2-6-6-4, to be a B&O KB-1, and then another to be a B&O KB-1a, which one of them is from a pair of Mantua 4-6-2 frames, milled, and the other is being built from a Bowser Challenger. You guys after awhile will see, I get into the kits and scratchbuilding like no other, but as Nelson can say for me, I have a miniture machine shop so......I even cast my own line of detail parts, and to add to that, for sale as well, or even trade!
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - March 28 2012 : 8:46:03 PM
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Paul, I've used the NWSL gearing, and it works beautifully, but it usually isn't necessary with a new motor like the Canon John used unless you want the loco to really crawl. Also be aware that the NWSL gearing with a stock motor will probably increase noise, because the motor will be running faster.
NWSL has two ratios available. The most common gear kit gives a 60% speed reduction, which is a lot. The other gives a 30% reduction, and that's what I used in this Y6b along with a volume control motor from and old shelf stereo. It runs really well, and has a realistic speed range.
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Posted - March 30 2012 : 6:34:57 PM
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Nelson,
NICE repower! Is that a record player motor? Even so, I bet it runs GREAT!
As for the NWSL regear, I agree, 30% is close and the 60% is WAY to much! Not that I have used them, but I may in the future specially on items that have larger diamter drivers, to get speed with a slower RPM motor.....
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - March 30 2012 : 6:39:52 PM
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Nelson,
NICE repower! Is that a record player motor? Even so, I bet it runs GREAT!
As for the NWSL regear, I agree, 30% is close and the 60% is WAY to much! Not that I have used them, but I may in the future specially on items that have larger diamter drivers, to get speed with a slower RPM motor.....
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - March 30 2012 : 7:52:32 PM
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John, and yet the 60% reduction kits are the common ones! They are way too slow, and really make the stock motor noise obnoxious. You have to search for the 30% kits, and the part number isn't even in their current pdf catalog. I hope they are still available.
The motor in the picture was actually a CD spindle motor, but I changed it to a volume control motor because it was a little slower and quiter. Different manufacturer (Panasonic instead of Mabuchi, IIRC), but the same basic can. The only reservation I have about motors like this is the precious metal brushes wearing out after a while, which has happened to some of the Power Torque retrofits we've done. If that happened, I'd open it up and put carbon brushes on new wipers.
And yes, she's quiet! 
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Posted - April 01 2012 : 03:02:49 AM
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You done a good job on that remotor Nelson! VERY clean!
Those precious metal brushes last a long time if they don't get hot, once they warm up is fine but extensive run time on them and "overheat" them, which isn't much is causes them to wear.....Or atleast thats what I have seen in the past with them....(I have one loco thats had a cassette deck motor in it for 15 years, and it runs as it did when I put the "NEW" motor it.....
The cassette player was litterally brand new! I got it and the cord, got slamed in a door jam, and riped the cord out, and snaped a PC board in side, in half! So.....I think I paid $29.99 for it so......... instead of returning it took about $125.00 worth of electronics out of it to use in the choo choo's! At lass back then, thats what you would have paid for the larger A-Line can motor set up so......That same motor is in a Rivarossi 2-8-4.
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - April 01 2012 : 5:19:58 PM
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Thanks, John. That Y6b was the 60's version with the ball bearing motor, and it had slotted couplings that were noisy because they weren't in a straight line. The original owner tried unsuccessfully to quiet them down, so I just ditched them for NWSL shafts and universals in addition to the gearing.
I don't know about the longevity of precious metal brushes. Manufacturers say they're for low current applications, so whether they're moving a volume control or spinning a CD at relatively low RPM, they don't have much of a load on them. We run them at higher voltages and make them do more work, so it will be interesting to see how they hold out, but since I don't run the Y6 often it's not getting put to the test. The other issue is that the brushes already have wear on them when we pull them from equipment. Either way, it's always fun to experiment!
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Posted - April 24 2012 : 06:54:54 AM
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Nelson,
That Y6 looks GREAT all together, the inner "middle" drive shaft, where did you get that from? It looks like a Micro-Mark, drive shaft that they sell as a kit!?
I would definately change EVERY ONE of those in all my older Rivarossi's!
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - April 24 2012 : 5:37:13 PM
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John,
The middle universal is made from a NWSL universal kit (2mm) with the horned balls pressed on to some NWSL 2mm shafting.
How did you get a Challenger and two Big Boys for $100 that you mentioned in the other thread?  What condition are they in?
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Posted - April 25 2012 : 07:38:35 AM
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Nelson,
Thanks for letting me know of the NWSL universal kit......you have a part number for that?
As for your question on the Challenger and 2 Big Boys....The Challenger is BRAND NEW! Never ran, paid $50.00 for it. The guy that had it I buy off of him at shows alot as he treats me pretty well so.....Told me the Challenger had a "gearing issue" and I was like, OK, (thinking to myself, it can't be that much wrong with it and even if it did, I got plenty of parts to make a repair! So, upon getting home with it unpacking everything I put it on the test track, and it "bucked" a few times in around 2 feet of run length. Took the top boiler off, and the screw on the front set of engines that is used to make it articulate was loose and the horned ball shaft that runs between the top and bottom gear boxes was jacked. I re-aligned everything and tighten down the screw that is the pivot, and Voila! Test ran it once more, smooooooooooth as glass!
The Big Boy's, are in alittle more difficult shape, Got them for $25.00 each off of another guy that had 'em both, one has a cracked cab, the other is missing a tender. I'm going to take the 2 to make one, and then the one thats left over will set for a parts donor, OR be re-built over time as I look for parts for him!
$100.00 total, new old stock Challenger that was probably like I got it from the day it was brand new!
Big Boys, need some work but.....(I got one of the Big Boys sold already so........Thats why I picked 'em up!)
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - April 25 2012 : 11:24:08 PM
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John,
The # is 489-6. Universals are listed in part 5 of their catalog.
http://www.nwsl.com/NWSL_Online_Catalog.html
You stole those Big Boys, even if they are parts donors. I can't believe what I see damaged ones going for on eBay.
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Posted - April 26 2012 : 07:18:02 AM
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Thanks Nelson, for the parts numbers!
As for the Big Boys, yeah I seen them, sort of hidden so......I asked what they were going for and he said $25.00 each I was like, I'll take 'em!
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - July 16 2012 : 11:44:11 PM
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I'm still using the stock motor in my Big Boy (actually, the stock motor ran so poorly that I bought one from Nelson ), and it's not as powerful as the Canon DN22 or Igarashi motor, but it still gets the job done with the stock gearing and runs nice and quiet. The NWSL regear kits really aren't needed unless you need more torque for low-speed freight.
The Big Boy did have an annoying vibration and rumbling noise at first. The motor is balanced and the gears are quiet, so I figured the problem was the universals. I put in NWSL universals, and it got a LOT quieter!
And speaking of obnoxious motor noise, check out my 40:1 regearing of a Rivarossi Dockside!
Too bad I like the noise those old ball-bearing motors make!
Darth Santa Fe, doing weird and challenging projects for the fun of it!
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Posted - July 17 2012 : 01:51:50 AM
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Darth, you've got to love a Dockside that sounds like a 747 spooling up... cognitive dissonance! That actually sounds like a smooth one.
I've posted this before, but this is my Dockside with a disk drive motor and Atlas single lead worm. It runs very quiet, and while I've had the precious metal brushes on a few of these motors wear through, hopefully a lightweight switcher won't load it down enough to cause that. I'm sure it would really crawl with the NWSL gears.
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Posted - July 17 2012 : 04:54:52 AM
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I love the speed change in the dockside! But the 747 taking off would have to go! Steam engine shouldn't sound like planes!
HOWEVER, because of the old motor and the new gear ratio, wouldn't the motor have to spin alot faster to make it run at the new gear ratio full speed as you showed in your video?
I would venture a guess to say that motor will run aehile but not long at high speeds as they're known to overheat from high motor RPM's!
GREAT job tho! I would simply be putting in a new flat can motor if it were me!
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - January 12 2020 : 2:12:40 PM
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| What motor is that that you used in the dockside? I'm going to do one myself
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