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 Posted - April 03 2010 : 8:27:31 PM
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At first I thought the two Ebay engines were tyco Dockside engines, but they're Rivarossi's. I took the first one totally apart, and found in the motor the following :
One brush jammed, not moving up and down, not touching commutator.
One brush replaced with a copper wire mesh, burnt on one end, apparently not touching anymore, either.
Well, don't that beat all. I cleaned out both brush chutes, and then got some brass finishing nails,and used those to stick down onto the commutator pads. After cranking the power supply up past halfway, the motor finally turned over and ran rather smoothly. Ok, so I may just need some repair parts for this one. I haven't taken the other B&O dockside engine apart yet, it didn't move either. PRobably something similar. Since I now have experience on one unit, may as well tackle the other one to see what's wrong with it. Both look clean and unabused, although the mesh trick was rather funny. I guess it'd work ok for awhile.
Is there any source for generic brushes, or would I have to look for Rivarossi types, you think? They don't look much different than the Athearn types I got to repair some of my other diesel engine motors. If I can find my leftovers, I may try them. No telling where I put those extra brushes right now, though.
While taking it apart, I also removed the little driver rod shoulder screws,and took off the main rods. Now I have a more prototypical British steam driver system, and I'll have to find that Lady body I wanted to power to see if it'll fit underneath. More fun ahead!
Jerry
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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Posted - April 03 2010 : 8:48:17 PM
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Can you measure the brushes with a micrometer and post the dimensions?
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Posted - April 03 2010 : 9:30:23 PM
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Hi Guys. The Rivarossi Part number for the brushes is: 109-550 and the AHM part number is P-120-032. you get one of the wire mesh brush and one solid brush Approx. cost $3.00 a set. They pop up on eBay from time to time.  Carl
Numquam Immoderatio Satis Est
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Posted - April 03 2010 : 10:05:03 PM
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quote:Hi Guys. The Rivarossi Part number for the brushes is: 109-550 and the AHM part number is P-120-032. you get one of the wire mesh brush and one solid brush Approx. cost $3.00 a set. They pop up on eBay from time to time.
Carl
Originally posted by VintageHOÂ -Â April 03 2010Â :Â 9:30:23 PM
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Why a wire mesh brush? Most motors use two solid brushes. One self-cleans the commutator pads? Maybe...interesting.
Anyway, I found a vendor/ seller on Ebay, name of :
http://stores.ebay.com/K4-Supply-Company?_rdc=1
He has more than 10 sets of 4 brushes each. I just bought 2 sets, 8 total brushes , $5 per set of 4.
As far as measuring the brushes? I had to dig out the solid one with an Exact-0 and pick tool, so it disintegrated, it would not budge in the housing. The wire mesh one came out easily enough, though. since it gives, doesn't do much good to measure it, although I could do an approximation. But since I found a seller for Rivarossi / Athearn brushes, and he showed pics of several motors, one of which was in my 0-4-0, then I'm certain it's the right ones. Another happy Ebay customer! LOL. Thanks for supplying those P/N's Carl. Always handy to have the correct #'s.
Jerry
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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Posted - April 04 2010 : 04:33:59 AM
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The brushes K4 sells are both carbon, which IMHO is probably better. I can only assume that Rivarossi used one mesh brush to polish the commutator, but I don't really see the need. Commutators get fouled either by oil, or brush dust packed into the slots, and neither situation is going to be remedied by mesh. It's just another one of RR's interesting quirks, like their early ball bearing motors.
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 Posted - April 04 2010 : 08:32:00 AM
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quote:The brushes K4 sells are both carbon, which IMHO is probably better. I can only assume that Rivarossi used one mesh brush to polish the commutator, but... It's just another one of RR's interesting quirks, like their early ball bearing motors.
Originally posted by NickelPlate759Â -Â April 04 2010Â :Â 04:33:59 AM
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Guess it was worth a shot experimenting. Never seen a mesh brush before in a motor. I'd think it'd wear out long before the carbon type, it sure was burnt on the end.
2nd 0-4-0 Dockside maintenance review - I started taking it apart right before bed, the motor was locked up, some rust on the outer casing, probably stored in a basement Anyway, I took my pick tool and got the armature moving, although it was doing a bit of grinding when I finally broke it loose. That was enough, it at least wasn't totally seized.
Got up this morning, let the coffee out, started the cats , waitaminute that was the OTHER way around...anyway, had some waffles, then got back on #2 . Sat down at my PC keyboard shelf to work on it. Spun the armature around with the pick tool a bit more, then hooked up a transformer to it ( he wasn't happy being woken up, either ), and lit the electrical fire....had to crank it up to 3/4 power and spin the worm gear a bit to get it to move, then it took off and ran, so I just let it go, it ran rough for 10-15 seconds then started to smooth out. Light bulb up front even still works in this one! A bit noisy, but with a drop of oil on each bearing, should probably be alright. WOrked the throttle back and forth, it seems to do ok at slower RPMs now as well. I'm rather pleased with this one, even the driving rods are nice, they were bent on the other unit, the inner ones, these are all straight.
(sipping Folgers) Wow, I'm suddenly getting good at starting AND finishing projects! Amazing. I think #2 should be running the oval today without question. #1 Dockside B&O will have to await the arrival of K4's brushes i bought last night, to see if it'll also be revived. Glad it's just a cheap fix, and not requiring a whole new motor ( although that would be fun, I'm looking last night at a website that sells surplus small DC motors, I'm thinking of getting a lower RPM unit to repower some of my Hustlers and now maybe these steam engines ).
( Immediate update ) Just oiled the two bronze bearings, now it's really running smooth :
Amazing what a little maintenance can do. I'm happy. I'll let it break in a bit on the repair bench, then reassemble it and see how it works on the tracks.
BTW, did these things ever come with tenders? Seems like you always find them loose as loco's, I've never found them with tenders. I think K4 has some small tenders, might be worth looking at. Opinions?
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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Posted - April 04 2010 : 08:44:54 AM
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Docksiders are "tank" engines therefore they didn't use tenders, though as with all RRing there will be an exception somewhere!
-Gareth
"A is A"
-Aristotle
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Posted - April 04 2010 : 08:58:23 AM
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quote:Docksiders are "tank" engines therefore they didn't use tenders, though as with all RRing there will be an exception somewhere!
-Gareth
Originally posted by romcat - April 04 2010 : 08:44:54 AM
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Really? They could keep the fire up all day? What did the tank hold, oil? Guess I'm not familiar enough with their operations yet....
Jerry
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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Posted - April 04 2010 : 7:33:39 PM
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I'm pretty sure the Docksides burned coal, which was stored in the small bunker on the back of the cab. These were yard engines, so they never strayed too far from the coaling facilities, although I wonder how much of a range they had. The Baltimore & Ohio probably wanted more range because they eventually converted them to standard shifters, and I was able to obtain 1961 Rivarossi version at the last train show I attended.
About a week ago I discovered that some Atlas worms I mesh perfectly with the 0-4-0 axle gear, but halves the speed. The Rivarossi worms are twin lead (2 threads), but the Atlases are single, so I put it on an old CD ROM motor, and didn't have to modify the chassis much to make it fit. The Dockside runs super-smooth and much slower now.
I didn't notice until taking these photos that the boiler weight has the slightest bit of cracking, but it's most likely done expanding.
The Tyco Depot
Edited by - NickelPlate759 on April 04 2010 7:47:52 PM
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Posted - April 04 2010 : 7:56:32 PM
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Nice work and thanks for elaborating on the docksider ops. many tank units are yard goats and as you say don't stray far from the water and coal Mommy hence no need of a tender. that short wheelbase can be critical as they were often used to pull large steamers onto & off turntables as they could ride the turntable with the larger unit...
A little while back Ken posted a pic of a friends Brass UP "S" class shop switcher. Have a look at where it's tank is!
-Gareth
"A is A"
-Aristotle
Law of Identification
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Posted - April 04 2010 : 8:45:49 PM
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Here's a shot of #98 in action from the Rivarossi Memory site.
http://s159.photobucket.com/albums/t131/NickelPlate759/Rivarossi%20Dockside/?action=view¤t=BOprototipo.jpg
(I just made it a link, because for some reason that image won't display here.)
Those S class switchers are awesome looking little bruisers, but I don't know how the crew could see anything around that tank. The hogger must have spent all of his time hanging out the cab window!
The Tyco Depot
Edited by - NickelPlate759 on April 04 2010 8:49:34 PM
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Posted - April 04 2010 : 8:55:32 PM
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Hey Nelson:
Glad you noticed. Always love that little monster myself. I'll find one, one day and add it to a very meager Brass collection which is now 1 Diesel and two steamers with one to arrive late month. I like small canadiaan Steam and they are only available in brass unfortunately....
-Gareth
"A is A"
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Posted - April 07 2010 : 10:21:15 PM
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quote: I took the first one totally apart, and found in the motor the following :
One brush jammed, not moving up and down, not touching commutator.
One brush is a copper wire mesh, burnt on one end, apparently not touching anymore, either.
Jerry
Originally posted by AMC_Gremlin_GTÂ -Â April 03 2010Â :Â 8:27:31 PM
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UPDATE on repair :
I got my Athearn / Rivarossi brushes today from K4 Ebayer, they're little hollow-core solid units, no mesh ones with these. Size is 0.094 inches by 0.256 inches, hollow on one end for spring. These are looser than the originals, although that might have just been due to crud. I started to reassemble the motor, and the first spring sprung away, somewhere on the floor....ARGH! ( insert cuss words here ). Took me awhile, but I turned off the light, got down with a flashlight, and finally saw it laying in a plastic lid on the floor under a box. Whew! Retrieved that little guy, and held it over a box AGAIN ( was trying not to lose it, it sprung away anyhow ). Got them both on, and hooked up my Model Power power supply with mini J-clips to the connections. Motor sprang to life at 1/2 throttle, and ran fairly smooth. Did have some up and down rpm idle issues, but otherwise it ran ok. So I think it's going to work, and I'll reinstall it in B& O Dockside engine #1 tomorrow night and try it. Looks like these Riva motors are fairly easy to fix, once you get them apart and oiled / cleaned properly. Not real happy with the little tiny spring contact, not much contact area. I noticed the other unit's motor was hot after just 10 minutes of running. Maybe that's normal.
Anyway, another Rivarossi Dockside will hopefully be running around soon. That's all for tonight, I think.
Jerry
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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Posted - April 07 2010 : 10:34:21 PM
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They tend to run a little warm, but I've never had one burn up. They seem to run cooler after they've been well broken in.
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Posted - April 08 2010 : 07:31:55 AM
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quote:| I'm pretty sure the Docksides burned coal, which was stored in the small bunker on the back of the cab. |
Ah, so that little area is where the coal goes? Wow, very small amounts! Then again, as said, they don't stray far, so easy to reload. Learn a little more every day.
quote:| About a week ago I discovered that some Atlas worms I mesh perfectly with the 0-4-0 axle gear, but halves the speed. The Rivarossi worms are twin lead (2 threads), but the Atlases are single, so I put it on an old CD ROM motor, and ...runs super-smooth and much slower now. |
AFter looking closely at your pic and my worm gear, I see the difference. I'll have to try to find some atlas worm gears, then. How old is/was that CD rom drive you used? Did the worm fit on it perfectly? I have a few, I'll have to check on stripping the motors out of them. Very nice retro-fitting, indeed! Thanks for posting that.
Jerry
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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Posted - April 08 2010 : 1:47:41 PM
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Yep, the motor shafts are 2mm, which is pretty standard, and what the Atlas worms fit. I happened to have a motor with a long enough shaft, but I don't remember what it came out of. I assume it was a disk drive, but their shafts tend to be short because space is tight, so it could have been from a carousel CD player. Anything from the earliest CD Rom drive up through the most recent should have them.
The worms I bought were listed as part #707315 for Atlas Alcos, but all I can find in their parts lists is 707305. It's probably the same worm, or close. I got them in from a guy on eBay who was selling off a lot of them a few years ago.
http://www.atlasrr.com/pdf/PartsPDFs/HORepairManual/HORSD4512Locomotive.pdf
http://www.atlasrr.com/hoparts.htm
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Posted - April 19 2012 : 09:40:47 AM
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quote:I'm pretty sure the Docksides burned coal, which was stored in the small bunker on the back of the cab. These were yard engines, so they never strayed too far from the coaling facilities, although I wonder how much of a range they had. The Baltimore & Ohio probably wanted more range because they eventually converted them to standard shifters, and I was able to obtain 1961 Rivarossi version at the last train show I attended.
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The 4 locomotives, built as tank engines burned fuel oil in a bunker; hence there is no coal load on the rear, just a small tank. Range was probably small, and coal was likely more plentiful compared to oil after the auto-boom, so in the twenties they rebuilt 2 locomotives to burn coal and have tenders. Their range was a little better, and it may have allowed greater visibility without the saddle tank in the way.
BTW; who made that nice pacific there in the background?
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Posted - April 19 2012 : 11:13:39 AM
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Actually, being a B&O historian, the C-16, 0-4-0T came first, in 1912, and was rebuilt as the C-16A 0-4-0 with tender in 1926. The "Docksiders" burned oil as true to what was said in the last posting. These locomotives were made to travel/ or traverse through the downtown streets of Baltimore, for the tight radius curvature track through the city. While running through the city, they were picking up "locals" for the railroad to be taken to the yard. So all in all, they were more of a transfer locomotive, then anything else, and because of their size, they made GREAT city creepers so to speak and were pretty strong as well. They also done chores for the docks at the inner harbor as well. This is why the B&O had a few of them.
They never really went to to far as to travel besides back and forth from the city streets to the docks, to the yard.
They remained up tlll 1925 in the city, for this purpose when the first Plymouth diesels and the IRGE "Boxcab" came along......Which was also tested out on the streets of downtown Baltimore.
When rebuilt in 1926, with tenders they then were true yard locomotives.....and were retrofitted from oil, to coal firing....With that, they did have alittle more range, but not by much!
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid... 
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
Edited by - EM-1 on April 19 2012 11:15:34 AM
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Posted - April 19 2012 : 5:20:25 PM
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I stand up to be corrected.  
It's true, the bunker at the back of the cab would be open at the top if it were coal.
Some photos of 98 in service.
/tyco/forum/uploaded/NickelPlate759/20120419171645_Dockside Prototype Photos06.jpg
/tyco/forum/uploaded/NickelPlate759/20120419171729_Dockside Prototype.jpg
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Posted - April 19 2012 : 9:43:19 PM
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Nelson, Its all good, its just me being me, and loving the B&O and ALL of there steamers, I have quite the steam history, right off the top of my head and memory! I've done my homework so.....
Not to mention, I've recently done a set of the Rivarossi 0-4-0 Docksiders, so......(In B&O of course!) And the history of them, was fresh on the brain!
Thats just me tho!
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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