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 Posted - December 18 2010 : 3:37:58 PM
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Found what will be my first Gilbert HO loco at the haunt today: the paint job was too pretty to pass up. It's a B&O F-3, #421, powered. In great cosmetic shape but hasn't turned a gear in eons.
The fact that the grease has aged into rock-hard mortar doesn't help its cause. But it should be fixable... SHOULD be... if I could figure out how to get the #&%# gears out of the thing. How the heck do you do this? It was hard enough to get the wheels off... but now I fear the axles aren't going to slip off the gears as I thought they might.
Despite the Gilbert-deco shell and trucks, the chassis and drive is stamped Varney. So I suppose there are clues there, but I haven't worked on a vintage Varney either.
This thing seems very well-built and solid, but is a real puzzle compared to most diesel locos in HO.
What's the best way to remove the grease and clean the trucks without ruining the zamac? Or is this already a lost cause since I can barely get the axles to turn even when using pliers (still hoping it's just that gummy; the loco and parts otherwise seem tasty minty).
Any help would be appreciated!
Edited by - spiderj76 on December 18 2010 3:40:15 PM
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Posted - December 18 2010 : 7:56:16 PM
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Hi Tony,
91% alcohol and a toothbrush (preferably one not currently in use) is fine for dissolving that hardened grease. It may take a little longer than stronger solvents, but it's safe for the gears. Once you free up the axles, they should be easier to push out of the gears. The AF steamers and diesels were made the same way, with one piece frames or trucks that trapped the axles.
If there's knurling under them thar gears, be careful when pressing them back on to avoid a split.
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - December 18 2010 : 8:14:03 PM
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* You should clean the gears in place. Dont remove them. If you do you are adding steps that add chanches for damage to occur.
toptrain
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Posted - December 18 2010 : 9:07:47 PM
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quote:* You should clean the gears in place. Dont remove them. If you do you are adding steps that add chanches for damage to occur.
Originally posted by toptrain - December 18 2010 : 8:14:03 PM
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I second this approach. There is really no need to remove the gear, other than make it a bit easier to ream out the shaft opening, but you risk damaging the gear doing so. Give the alcohol some time to soften the hardened grease, and soak it some if you have to ( alcohol shouldn't damage any gears, and those look like nylon in the picture, so should be impervious to alky ). Time and patience are good partners when dealing with old equipment, and old grease.
Jerry
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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Posted - December 18 2010 : 9:52:15 PM
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Thanks for the adive and help everyone. Here's an update... and an SOS for HELP! PARTS! Nooooo!
So... 91% alcohol and some careful scraping and scrubbing did the trick. After a soak and some elbow grease, everything was shiny and pristine. Beautiful! And one axle even began turning freely.
The other 3, unfortunatley, were bound. TIGHT.
I let the axle bearings soak in WD-40 for most of the evening. When I returned, the loose axle was even more so, but the other 3 were tight as ever. Even using pliers and a Samson grip, they wouldn't turn at all. AT ALL. Trust me on this.
How to deal with this?
Best thing I could come up with was to remove the brass wheels (plastic were alreay gone). Once they wheels are out of the way, I could press the axles sideways through the housing and hopefully loosen the bind.
Well, with extreme coercion, 3 of the wheels came off. I actually even had to pry two of them. The last one... well, I knew the consequences and believe me when I say I was trying to prevent this... but it snapped off with the axle end inside anyway. Arrrgh.
Anyway... with the wheels gone I could inspect the issue more clearly. STILL could not turn the axles. Could not see any contaminants either. So, time to press them out.
I don't have a press. So I made a jig out of wood blocks and used precision strikes with a small 8-pound sledgehammer. Don't laugh... it's more careful and precise than it sounds.
Noneltheless, I had to BEAT THE $#!^ out of the things to even get the axles to budge! But 2 of the 3 stuck ones finally relented. The last one? Yeah, it bent... and broke.
Once they finally busted loose, I could see fine white powder - zinc pest, I presume. I don't think I would EVER have gotten these loose any other way. I had to work them in and out quite a bit to ream them to spin "free". With a lot more cleaning and soaking, all the axles now spin fine.
But two of them are broken.
Does anyone have any parts they can spare? I learned better for next time but honestly I am not sure if I could have gotten them loose without some sort of casualty. I'm no stranger to patience and finesse when it comes to stuck parts... but the amount of force I had to apply to get these things loose was astounding. Like nothing I've ever had to do in the hobby before. So I'm hoping I get a pass on what may have been a lost cause anyway. But I'd still love to salvage it...
Thanks for reading.
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Posted - December 19 2010 : 06:56:57 AM
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A long soak in Liquid Wrench might have loosened the grip on the axles (a few years ago Cheez was able to revive a Blue Box motor with the armature rusted to the magnet ring), but that's hindsight now. I didn't suspect corrosion because the wheels and axles look bright and clean.
I can't help you with the parts, but hopefully someone here can. If the axles don't have any special shouldering or multiple diameters you might be able to find shaft material the right diameter and cut it to length.
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - December 19 2010 : 07:34:46 AM
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quote:
Once they finally busted loose, I could see fine white powder - zinc pest, I presume. I don't think I would EVER have gotten these loose any other way.
I'm no stranger to patience and finesse when it comes to stuck parts... but the amount of force I had to apply to get these things loose was astounding.
Originally posted by spiderj76Â -Â December 18 2010Â :Â 9:52:15 PM
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I guess in this case, your supposition to have to remove the axles was correct, Spiderj76. If the metal had expanded, there was no way you could have done any different. Not a case of hard grease, but metal-to-metal freeze-up. Oh well. Some things are never easy.
Ok, next question, parts - do you have any pictures of the complete axles? I have axle parts, but not sure if any might work, if you show me a small ruler with the axle along it, or give me dimensions, and a picture of the gear and axle assembly, I'll look through my axle parts to see if any might match up. I guess you don't have a micrometer to measure the axle diameter, either. ? Probably not. Well, we'll do the best we can. If you can find a drill bit the same diameter ( to fit the hole in the chassis ) I can work with that, too.
Just make this a long-term project. You can always acquire parts as you go, and someday it may run again. Long as the rest of the parts appear good, I wouldn't throw anything out.
Jerry
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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Posted - December 19 2010 : 08:51:06 AM
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It may just be corrosion that seized the axles, which is common to find under hardened lubricants. The trucks don't appear to have any distortion or crazing from the photos. If the screw holes in the truck castings and the bottom covers still line up, then there probably hasn't been any expansion.
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Posted - December 19 2010 : 10:22:13 AM
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 no idea but still want to know what that PC car is in back 
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Posted - December 19 2010 : 4:12:33 PM
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Form the jaws of defeat I manage to snatch victory! This should be on the list of "heroic fixes", if there was such a thing. Anyway...
Looked very carefully at the axles where I snapped off the ends - the housing bores are thicker, as is the axle at this point. The axle ends are narrower, and the back of the wheels butt up against the thicker part of the axle. There's enough size variance to consider boring out the axle itself, to insert the end I broke off. Might not work, but what have I got to lose?
Especially since it was quite clear that removing the rest of the axle (sliding it out of the gear) would result in the destruction of not only the housing, but probably my sanity and house as well. Seriously: How the F*** were these things assembled? Nuclear Fusion? Just reassembling the ones that WEREN'T broke once again required a wooden block jig, a socket small enough to sit flush within the wheel face, and a few precision sledge strikes to pound the wheel onto the axle sufficiently, in order to clear gauge tolerance. W. T. F. ??
Anyway... the housing itself was a perfect "jig" of sorts to hold the axle true, once I squared it in a block of wood. Some precision drilling with a Dremel and a #54 bit reamed out a hole in the end. I inserted the busted pin into the wheel, leaving extra material sticking out the back. A precision drop of CA in the axle-tip hole, then inserted the wheel and pin. Held it square and true while it set, and then reassembled the whole works. Of course, I had to do this twice... once for each truck.
I really wasn't holding my breath.... but holy moley, it WORKED! And while I don't think it will last forever, it DOES RUN down the track... and it doesn't even wobble, meaning I manged to keep the wheels in gauge AND the axle tips perfectly straight. Don't try this at home kids.
Anyway... as I said I don't expect this to last very long. I guess I need to keep an eye out for Varney parts to truly effect a proper repair. But in the meantime it's at least suitable for display and it does prove the mechanism works and sounds great.
And now here's the reassembled shots. Got the nose sticker back on too.
(PS Microbuss it's an AHM Calcium Chloride car).
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Posted - February 01 2011 : 05:48:34 AM
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| I just picked up that same loco over the weekend - but I'd forgotten I already have the #422 dummy to go with it. I need to come up with a couple of clunker Varneys to use for parts now. They also did these in a Gilbert-only DL&W Freight scheme, and I have just a shell for one. Trouble has been even the Varney versions have become both rare and somewhat valuable depending on roadname...
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Posted - February 13 2011 : 8:38:20 PM
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I just bought my first Gilbert/Varney engine this weekend at the show. The axles don't appear to be frozen, but I'll have to check the motor out. I paid $20 for just the chassis and two trucks, and the special Gilbert stamped gear cover plate (one only ). Vendor said that was the reason it was $20, that plate. Otherwise it's just a Varney.  Here's a pic of mine in pieces, came in a cigar box -
The Gilbert gear plate cover is laying on the track in the background. Doesn't have the driveshaft to go from front to rear, but maybe I can find one in my junkbox. But I do have a Gilbert, sort of, now. 
Jerry
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waw47
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Posted - February 13 2011 : 9:24:29 PM
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Jerry
What you have here is a frame for a Lackwanna. F3. It was produced in 55-56. The B&O F-3 shown above was first catalog in 1957. Varney changed their frame design between '56 and '57. The Lackwanna only came with one bottom plate, it did not have a front coupler.
Bill
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Posted - February 13 2011 : 9:31:01 PM
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Nice job on that rebuild Tony, looks like new.
Next time you have one frozen up like that, and I'm serious, throw it in the freezer overnight. Everything should shrink and that would make the axle smaller and should make the holes in the housing larger as the metal starts to pull itself together. We're talking minute measurements but sometimes that all it takes.
Sounds good in theory anyways.
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waw47
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Posted - February 13 2011 : 9:32:50 PM
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| Check out Top Train's post 1/4/11 in the American Flyer Forum under My Gilberts for a picture.
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Posted - February 14 2011 : 12:54:33 AM
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quote:Jerry
What you have here is a frame for a Lackwanna. F3. It was produced in 55-56. . Varney changed their frame design between '56 and '57. .. only came with one bottom plate, it did not have a front coupler.
Bill
Originally posted by waw47Â -Â February 13 2011Â :Â 9:24:29 PM
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Hey, thanks for that info, Bill. That is good to know...will later shells fit, though?
Jerry
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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waw47
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Posted - February 14 2011 : 06:58:20 AM
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Jerry
Yes, any Varney or Gilbert F3 shell will work. A large screw is used to attach the shell to your frame. On '57 and later frames the shells snaps on.
Bill
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Posted - February 14 2011 : 07:16:46 AM
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HI Jerry, and Bill.
With the bottom plates Gilbert didn't feal it necessary anymore to place a plate on the foward driven truck. My Lackwanna F3 is the same as yours. Name plate only on the power truck.
Gilbert purchased there parts from Varney for the F3. Also if you notice in there car line many of there freight cars are Varney.
* frank
toptrain
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Edited by - toptrain on February 14 2011 07:24:57 AM
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Posted - February 14 2011 : 07:30:19 AM
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quote:
With the bottom plates Gilbert didn't feal it necessary anymore to place a plate on the foward driven truck.
Gilbert ... car line many of there freight cars are Varney.
* frank
Originally posted by toptrain - February 14 2011 : 07:16:46 AM
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I learn more every day. I knew Varney supplied some cars to others, but I'm not up on all of the details. Cool thing to know, now I just have to figure out (some day ) which of my varney cars is Varney,and which are Gilbert. My Gilbert consist is getting closer to a real train,I have an engine, some cars, and maybe even a caboose. Another thing to do this year is get all my various makers in their own set boxes so I know what I have. They're all scattered right now. Anyway, thanks for that info, Frank.
Jerry
" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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Posted - February 14 2011 : 08:54:32 AM
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Jerry , All gilbert cars have gilbert series numbers. I have seen where a standard paint skeem of another manufacture is done on a car a second Gilbert number is applied on the car.
frank
toptrain
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waw47
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Posted - February 14 2011 : 11:46:31 AM
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| Check this site out, it will clear up somethings. www.gilbertho.org
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waw47
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Posted - February 14 2011 : 12:13:13 PM
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| Jerry, this will be useful www.myflyertrains.org/gallery/album215/HO_420_1
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