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 Posted - July 08 2009 : 11:37:47 AM
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I have an elderly AHM RS-3 (manuf. in Yoguslavia, presumably by Mehano?), which trundles down the track like a coffee grinder.
I have opened it up & had a good look at it & noted that it has a vertically mounted 'open frame' motor & it only drives through the back wheels.
When one opens up the underside of the driven wheels there are , in parallel, a geared axle then , [i think from memory], 3 small gears & another geared axle. Somewhere in there is the gear poking down from the motor.
I suspect the noise is a mix of motor & plastic gears.
The Loco has tons of character, but I was wondering if there is a known motor swap that could quieten it down??
Tanked
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Posted - July 08 2009 : 8:28:05 PM
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I have one of those. Haven't run it, yet. I suspect you have a cracked gear. Or have you looked at the end play on motor armature? Too much end play might get things out of alignment.
As for motor swaps. Later version of that same unit used a different drive
system, I think it is the same used in their GP18. As for using the same gear set and using a different motor, anything is possible but, sounds like major surgery. Might be a good project to put a little can motor in there. Just curious what roadname or does it have one?
(by the way, I am using bold, large print because I have a hard time seeing the little letters on my screen)
Unspoken expectations are premeditated failures.
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Posted - July 09 2009 : 09:09:08 AM
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quote:[size=3] [b]I have one of those. Haven't run it, yet. I suspect you have a cracked gear.
Originally posted by NC shortlines - July 08 2009 : 8:28:05 PM
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Hi SL
The road name on the Loco is Pennsylvania.
Re a cracked gear - I have some pics below & would appreciate it if you could suggest which one[s] are most likely to crack.
I ran it again last night & noise isn't as bad now & loco may be in a 'running in' mode.
Thanks
Tank
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Posted - July 09 2009 : 12:24:27 PM
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The problem thea I have had with those are that the magnet flux plates hit the armature. If the motor over heats, the top part (bearing mount/brush holder) distorts and allows the flux plates to rub the armature.
I have repaired a few by trimming the top piece and shimming the flux plates.
I have fit can motors in them by removing the top. the flux plates, the magnet and drilling the bottom bearing out to fit the mounting boss of the can motor.
Depending on the motor used some trimming is needed.
I saw some photos of that remotor posted here, I can't recall who posted them.
Ray
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Posted - July 09 2009 : 9:23:13 PM
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My guess it's the gear on the wheel axles. That's what I have seen before on other locos.
The ones you show appear to be in good condition. Ray seems to have suggested the most likely source for the noise.
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Posted - July 10 2009 : 02:43:38 AM
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Those motors are noisy on a good day, and as Ray said they were prone to overheating. The Pennsy RS-2 I had as a kid burned out in the first few weeks.
The worm would be the only gear that could split, but that was more common on the AHM C-Liners and BL-2's. They had the same size worm, but the motor shaft was a larger diameter, so the gear was thinner and prone to splitting. The RS-2 has a smaller 2mm motor shaft, so the gear is heftier and not likely to crack.
I think the photos Ray was referring to were mine. I remotored an AHM Alco switcher (same power truck) with a Mabuchi FK-130, which is almost a drop-in fit.
This is the truck with the motor assembly removed.
I ripped out the bottom bearing...
... then ground the bottom flat and opened up the hole to accept the can motor bearing. The new motor is a little wider than the old magnet and pole pieces, so the hardest part was widening the sides of the opening without grinding away the flimsy plastic tabs that hold the truck inside the loco's frame.
I added pickup wipers to the rear truck while I was at it.
Here it is assembled. The gray fuzz to the front of the motor is some foam I used to shim the motor for the best gear mesh between the worm and idler gears. A bent paperclip works as a motor retainer, with the original motor screws holding it down.
The original gear ratio isn't bad, because this engine can crawl with this motor. Now it performs better than many high-end diesels. 
The Tyco Depot
Edited by - NickelPlate759 on July 10 2009 02:55:08 AM
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Posted - July 10 2009 : 09:51:13 AM
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NP,
very clever. I might try something like that myself.
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Posted - July 10 2009 : 11:33:48 AM
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Thanks Nelson.
Those are the photos I was thinking of.
Ray
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Posted - July 10 2009 : 4:58:02 PM
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Thanks. I couldn't believe what a perfect fit those motors are when the idea first hit me. That power truck was used in a lot of Mehano hood units, and the can motor makes them run like a serious model instead of a toy.
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - July 13 2009 : 3:43:11 PM
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quote:Thanks. I couldn't believe what a perfect fit those motors are when the idea first hit me. That power truck was used in a lot of Mehano hood units, and the can motor makes them run like a serious model instead of a toy.
Originally posted by NickelPlate759-July 10 2009: 4:58:02 PM
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Brilliant use of a paper clip, Nelson.
#8 fencing wire engineering at its best.
Thanks for the 'How To', very useful. I may give that a go.
Tanked
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Posted - July 14 2009 : 10:51:56 AM
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quote:
I added pickup wipers to the rear truck while I was at it.
Originally posted by NickelPlate759-July 10 2009: 02:43:38 AM
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Nelson - where did you get the wipers?
They don't look home made.
Thanks
Tanked
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Posted - July 14 2009 : 6:43:22 PM
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They aren't. They are IHC tender pickups I bought from the AHM/IHC parts guys at my local Greenberg show. I always stock up on various wipers when I'm there. The washerhead screws are from some scrapped piece of electronics.
You can use just about anything. I used the pickup wipers from the remnants of an old Bachmann cheapie to add 8 wheel pickup to a GP18. If you have some phosphor-bronze sheet (I think Micro-Mark sells it) you can cut your own.
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - July 28 2009 : 1:40:39 PM
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quote:
Nelson
Do you have another shot of the complete wiring set up??
Why I ask is I have assembled what I need to follow your example, but I note that in the 'add wipers to rear truck' photo there is a black wire, then the shot of the new motor shows a red & white wire, so I am wondering where the black wire went.??
Thanks
Tanked
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Posted - July 28 2009 : 3:01:21 PM
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I was hoping you wouldn't notice.  The last photo was taken after I had the motor installed and was testing it, but before I installed the wipers on the rear truck. When I did, I just used the screws that hold the wipers to hold the wires as well for easy service. I tend to use all black wire because it doesn't show. (On the wipers I used, I bent the lower corner of the rectangular center section away from the end of the idler gear to prevent it from grinding any plastic off the end of the shaft. This may not be an issue with whatever wipers you've chosen, but I thought I'd mention it. You can just see the lower corner curled away from the truck if you look at it full size.)
On my unit, the red wire comes from the right rail, and the white wire from the left, so just connect the wires from the right and left wipers to the correct color. I'd like to assume that Mehano used consistent color coding, but you know what they say about that.  I would confirm the color code on yours to avoid giving yourself a dead short. 
The Tyco Depot
Edited by - NickelPlate759 on July 28 2009 3:03:18 PM
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Posted - July 28 2009 : 7:54:14 PM
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Nelson,
Very cool. I can't wait to do one of those. Glad to hear how well it runs.
Alco Fan
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Posted - July 28 2009 : 8:42:58 PM
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Thanks, AF.
I thought I'd throw a shot of the gears in for good measure. I cleaned everything when I was done, as you can see the plastic shavings in the grease.
I had to play with the gear mesh a little bit, and discovered it was quietest with the new motor pressed against the back of the truck. I ground a few thousandths away from the rear wall, and used a shim in front of the motor for the best mesh. It didn't like being dead center, for some reason.
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - August 03 2009 : 6:48:54 PM
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quote:
This is the truck with the motor assembly removed.
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Ok Nelson
How did you get the motor out of the chassis?
I have started my conversion & am stuck with the commutator shaft & pinion & magnets still in the housing.
I can't see that I can get a gear puller in at the moment.
Thanks
Tanked
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Posted - August 03 2009 : 7:23:55 PM
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I couldn't use a gear puller in this case either, because of the truck housing. I removed the axles and idler gears and pried the worm off with a small screwdriver slipped between the worm and the truck housing.
It's only a plastic gear, so there isn't much friction holding it on the shaft. The armature assy. will lift right out once it's removed.
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - August 03 2009 : 9:02:59 PM
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quote:I couldn't use a gear puller in this case either, because of the truck housing. I removed the axles and idler gears and pried the worm off with a small screwdriver slipped between the worm and the truck housing.
It's only a plastic gear, so there isn't much friction holding it on the shaft. The armature assy. will lift right out once it's removed.
Originally posted by NickelPlate759-August 03 2009: 7:23:55 PM
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Okay.
will try that.
Thanks
Tanked
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Posted - September 06 2009 : 7:57:29 PM
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[quote] [quote] I remotored an AHM Alco switcher (same power truck) with a Mabuchi FK-130, which is almost a drop-in fit.
I added pickup wipers to the rear truck while I was at it.
I have been working on this off & on & have the can motor in & the wiper contacts added to the rear truck.
The motor unit sits in a plastic housing that has 2 'wings ' either side & you have to twist the motor unit to position those wings in a chassis plate, one above & one below the plate. (See Nelson's 'pickup wiper' potos, the wings are just above the wiper)
I was able to get the motor unit out, but damned if i can get it back in!!.
Nelson, is there a trick to that??
Tanked
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Posted - September 06 2009 : 10:05:32 PM
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quote:
I was able to get the motor unit out, but damned if i can get it back in!!.
Nelson, is there a trick to that??
Tanked
Originally posted by TankedEngine-September 06 2009: 7:57:29 PM
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No, I didn't have a problem with that. It's just the reverse of removing it, so you push the truck in turned at an angle and twist until it locks. You used the same motor, or at least one with the same dimensions, right? Unless the motor is wider and blocking the opening, I can't imagine why it isn't going in.
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - September 07 2009 : 03:15:38 AM
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I tried this swap. I have some aligning to do. I also found it hard to get the power truck back in. Thanks for the pics too.
Alco Fan
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Posted - September 07 2009 : 08:59:53 AM
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quote:quote:
I was able to get the motor unit out, but damned if i can get it back in!!.
Nelson, is there a trick to that??
Tanked
Originally posted by TankedEngine-September 06 2009: 7:57:29 PM
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No, I didn't have a problem with that. It's just the reverse of removing it, so you push the truck in turned at an angle and twist until it locks. You used the same motor, or at least one with the same dimensions, right? Unless the motor is wider and blocking the opening, I can't imagine why it isn't going in.
Originally posted by NickelPlate759-September 06 2009: 10:05:32 PM
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Ok, a picture is worth a thousand words etc, what am I doing wrong Nelson??
Thanks
Tanked
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Posted - September 08 2009 : 2:28:53 PM
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Originally posted by NickelPlate759-September 06 2009: 10:05:32 PM
[/quote]
I had another look at it & decided it wasn't going to work unless I shaved some of the motor tube where it was blocking the plate - so that has been Dremeled. Rather agricultural outcome, but the motor is now in the chassis plate, its wired up & circulating the track as I write.
Noise is chalk & cheese - much much quieter & smoother.
Some minor gear binding at slow speed I am hoping to 'wear off' during the motor break in period.
That was my fault for JB Welding the motor in place rather than leaving the ability to make subtle adjustments to the gear mesh.
Tanked
[/quote]
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Posted - September 10 2009 : 4:33:00 PM
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Tanked,
I didn't know the RS-3 had a steel frame, as the Alco I worked on has a plastic one which must have more clearance for the truck. I'm nit quite sure what you ground from your description, but removing steel from the diagonal parts of the frame opening would have allowed the truck to turn farther.
"Chalk and cheese?"
I don't know if using toothpaste or valve compound is a good idea, since the gears are overmeshed on one side. You can probably break the JB Weld by prying with a sharp screwdriver or razor blade, so you can adjust the position of the motor. I've been able to break epoxy bonds that way.
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - September 24 2009 : 2:49:59 PM
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quote:Tanked,
I didn't know the RS-3 had a steel frame, as the Alco I worked on has a plastic one which must have more clearance for the truck. I'm nit quite sure what you ground from your description, but removing steel from the diagonal parts of the frame opening would have allowed the truck to turn farther.
"Chalk and cheese?"
I don't know if using toothpaste or valve compound is a good idea, since the gears are overmeshed on one side. You can probably break the JB Weld by prying with a sharp screwdriver or razor blade, so you can adjust the position of the motor. I've been able to break epoxy bonds that way.
Originally posted by NickelPlate759-September 10 2009:
I was surprised to see you had a plastic chassis in your photos. I scraped plastic off the outside of the motor housing, it was easier than going at the chassis. Running in the loco is smoothing out the running behavior.
Tanked 4:33:00 PM
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Posted - September 25 2009 : 05:59:08 AM
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Glad to hear it's quieting down.
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - August 08 2010 : 11:53:15 PM
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I got one of these today, a Santa Fe that I wanted for a long time. Unfortunately, after a few minutes of running the motor started "seizing." It would sit and hum and get hot. It seems like the magnet plates are rubbing, like Ray mentioned in a previous post. I tried tinkering with it, but I think it's time to remotor.
So I have a couple questions. I may scrounge a motor to fit in it, but the one in this demo seems to work great. So to anyone who can answer I ask:
1. Where can I get a FK 130 motor?
2. What do the numbers FK 130 mean exactly? A quick search of ebay reveals an FA 130 and an FF 130, and some just labeled 130. What's the difference? I know nothing about Mabuchi motors.
Otherwise, I'm going to start going through my "junk" to find something that will fit.
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Posted - August 09 2010 : 02:36:03 AM
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B77. The motor is a FK-130SH. you can see the number in one of the pictures of the motor. Here is the link to the Web page. It has the Higher Voltage range.
http://www.mabuchi-motor.co.jp/cgi-bin/catalog/e_catalog.cgi?CAT_ID=fk_130rhsh
Also here is link to a site that sells them. Carl
http://www.bonanzle.com/booths/k4_pacific/items/Parts__Small_12V_Motor_For_Model_Train_Mabuchi_FK_130SH
Numquam Immoderatio Satis Est
(Too Much Is Never Enough )
Edited by - VintageHO on August 09 2010 02:40:05 AM
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Posted - August 09 2010 : 02:39:50 AM
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B77, you can get some at All Electronics: http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/DCM-368/3-12-VDC-MOTOR/1.html
The Mabuchi data sheets are here: http://www.mabuchi-motor.co.jp/en_US/product/p_0306.html
You can find out what their designations mean from the following chart.
http://www.mabuchi-motor.co.jp/en_US/technic/t_0302.html
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - August 09 2010 : 11:49:22 PM
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| Thanks for the great info, guys. I've ordered from k4 before, so I'll go ahead and get that motor.
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Posted - August 10 2010 : 01:36:57 AM
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VHO, you beat me by 3 minutes.
The RS-2 I got when I was about 9 burned up in a few weeks. I always assumed that the armature had a short in the windings, but maybe it was rubbing the pole pieces.
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - August 28 2010 : 4:38:21 PM
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I just finished this, and it was a real learning experience. First of all, I figured out that I could solder much easier if I used smaller solder. So know I'm going to solder all kinds of things that I've got temporarily taped together.
There were some problems as I went along. My loco is the metal frame type like TankedEngine's. As I look back at the pictures, the it's obvious the metal frame version is completely different. The plastic one has that "mehano-y" (that's a new word) look, with the handrails molded into the chassis. The metal frame version is more like other AHM's in that the handrails are on the shell and the whole thing comes off to leave a flat metal chassis.
So the problem came when I put the shell back on. It ran fine with no shell, then when I put it on it made a horrible noise and would barely wobble down the track. The trouble is that the motor is just barely too big. The shaft and one terminal rub the shell. After messing with it a while, I tried grinding the shaft down flush with the motor housing. That helped stop the noise, but the loco would still stutter when taking a turn. I looked in the shell and found a scrape mark right above one of the terminals. Bending it down didn't help. I tried to carefully scratch out a spot in the shell, but I had to quit to keep from going through.
In the end, I shimmed the front and back of the shell with some thin cork I found in the junk box. Not sure of the size...thinner than a CD is all I can think of. It works fine, and the height difference on the shell isn't noticeable.
Other than some less than perfect traction tires, it runs like a champ now.
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Posted - September 29 2012 : 12:30:28 AM
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Nelson,
I been doing that for years with the vertical motor in the truck with the can motors! I tell ya, it makes a really loud, poorly running locomotive crawl, pull well and even be strong, with some muscle if you add in a little more weight then what the factory did!
I got 3 or so, AHM RS-2's I plan to do that with! THEN, I plan to add in a SECOND powered truck, made the same way for dual motored units, with 6 VDC motors wired in-line to run together and not exceed the 12 volts of power going to the motors!
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - September 29 2012 : 01:36:48 AM
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John, wiring the 6 volt motors in series like that will do the trick, because it will halve the voltage going to each. I dual motored my RR GG-1 and wired the motors in series to halve the top speed, and it works really well. The motors work like a differential in tandem like that: if one is loaded down, the other spins faster, so they balance each other.
At least now you know where that Alco 1000 body came from! Now the power truck is in an RS-2.
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - September 29 2012 : 01:39:33 AM
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Cool beans Nelson.....
Not that I'm real worried about the ALCO 1000 trucks went as I got a set to slip right under it!
Not to mention will end up a painted shell, anway as I want to add in another one to my Western Maryland diesel switcher fleet.....AND the WM never had ANY EMD switchers! Baldwin and ALCO, only!
~John
Many have tried to, and failed, ya just can't repair stupid...
Do NOT try to Idiot-Proof anything!!!! God, will simply create a better......IDIOT!
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Posted - September 30 2012 : 12:57:45 AM
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I've got a PRR and NH rs-2, and I couldn't get either to work well stock. I"m wondering if I should do the drive swap from a gp18, get a Model Power GP-20/FA/Alco1000 drive, or just srcap the units. "I don't always like diesels but when I do, it's an ALCO"
Unlike the prototype, I prefer to have my models not make so much noise!
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Posted - November 23 2012 : 01:42:44 AM
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You can't do a drive swap from the GP18 on these, at least not easily. That drive incarnation only uses the upper shell with an entire new plastic frame of similar construction as the GP18. On this one, the decks are molded to the body shell with the handrails a seperate part.
I once started to cut up a shell to do that swap but never did finish it. You'd have to cut the decks away, trim the cab base a bit, and then it would just slip on with nothing to hold it down.
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Posted - November 23 2012 : 11:03:50 PM
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Found out a local hobby shop does in fact have old stock in stock. It looked like it was a store from 30 years ago! Anyway, he showed me how the GP18 repowering isn't going to work that well.
Surprisingly, my rs2 is said to run "very well", and I don't remember it being quite that quiet when runnning... ever! He said traction tires should fix it up to run at least 3 coaches around, and maybe I'll double head it with another rs2 as soon as I get more parts for the formerly "donor" locomotive.
Thank you for the help, I'll keep looking for CD motors though.
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Posted - November 28 2012 : 5:01:28 PM
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| Were there originally traction tires on both axles of the power truck mentioned in this blog? I've thought about it, and I can't remember if there were traction tires or not. In using grease-like lubricants instead of machine oil, I have found the gear noise got to an acceptable standard of "quiet enough". If I add traction tires, I think I can get a bit more pulling power that I thought the motor had. Would I put the motor at greater risk of overheating by adding traction tires?
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Posted - November 29 2012 : 5:15:14 PM
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All of their diesels with only one powered truck had a pair of traction tires, so it won't be a problem for the motor. The all-wheel driven units didn't have any.
The Tyco Depot
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Posted - May 22 2014 : 11:31:05 AM
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| Looking at it again today, why does it only have traction tires on one side? Is that to allow slippage while going around tight curves?
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Posted - May 22 2014 : 4:14:22 PM
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I guess that was the general thought, but Life-Like sold the RS11 with the same power truck and traction tires on all 4 wheels, probably to make up for the relatively low weight. The physics aren't as critical at this scale as they are on the prototype.
Since I added wipers to the power truck, I flipped one axle around to have one metal wheel on each rail, and have noticed no problems.
The Tyco Depot
Edited by - NickelPlate759 on May 22 2014 4:15:26 PM
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Posted - May 22 2014 : 10:21:31 PM
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quote:Looking at it again today, why does it only have traction tires on one side? Is that to allow slippage while going around tight curves?
Originally posted by Islanderh93Â -Â May 22 2014Â :Â 11:31:05 AM
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A lot of model locomotives have traction tires on one rail and pick up power from the other rail. For example, a steam engine might pick up from the right rail with the drivers and the left with the tender, so all the traction tires would be on the left rail. Similarly, some train set diesels had one truck picking up from the left rail and the other one from the right rail. Traction tires would be on the insulated-side wheels.
Carpe Manana!
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Posted - May 27 2014 : 01:55:57 AM
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I followed your lead and built one of these myself using an old computer surplus motor...WOW! I cant believe how good it runs now, with new super traction tires it now pulls like a sled dog and is as quiet as can be, the chassis is currently powering an old Tyco shark that was in need of a drive. Thanks for the ideas and for going to the trouble to post your project! 
Edited by - metalsmith1 on May 27 2014 02:10:52 AM
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Posted - November 20 2017 : 8:01:05 PM
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How would you repower Tyco shark? I thought it's the PT drive?
quote:I followed your lead and built one of these myself using an old computer surplus motor...WOW! I cant believe how good it runs now, with new super traction tires it now pulls like a sled dog and is as quiet as can be, the chassis is currently powering an old Tyco shark that was in need of a drive. Thanks for the ideas and for going to the trouble to post your project!
Originally posted by metalsmith1Â -Â May 27 2014Â :Â 01:55:57 AM
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Posted - January 03 2021 : 10:21:48 PM
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quote:
I followed your lead and built one of these myself using an old computer surplus motor...WOW!
I cannot believe how good it runs now with new super traction tires.
It now pulls like a sled dog and is as quiet as can be.
The chassis is currently powering an old Tyco Shark that was in need of a drive.
Thanks for the ideas and for going to the trouble to post your project!
Originally posted by metalsmith1Â -Â May 27 2014Â :Â 01:55:57 AM
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Venerable engine.
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