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 Posted - February 19 2022 : 10:15:33 PM
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Just wondering, has anyone else replaced the tender pickup wheels on Mantua 4-6-2's/2-8-2's with nickel silver wheels, and if so, what type did you use?
The reason I'm asking is because I really want to increase power pickup on my various Mantua heavy steam locomotives - as the old brass tender wheels just do not pick up power very well, even on a tuned-up steamer.
Thanks.
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Posted - February 20 2022 : 06:40:21 AM
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Bob, well with Mantua the tender picks up on the left side. loco is right side. wheel sets must be insulated on one side. Wheels and axels must be the same size so they will fit nicely.
frank
toptrain
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Posted - February 20 2022 : 07:58:27 AM
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quote:Just wondering, has anyone else replaced the tender pickup wheels on Mantua 4-6-2's/2-8-2's with nickel silver wheels, and if so, what type did you use?
Originally posted by RP model railroads - February 19 2022 : 10:15:33 PM
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Intermountain 33" wheels fit Mantua trucks.
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Posted - February 20 2022 : 1:34:28 PM
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The Intermountain 33" wheels are great and should help. But, be aware that the tender trucks provide the electrical path from the truck bolster and screw to the frame. This is a weak link and the zamac oxidation provides resistance and needs to be super clean. Other folks have fashioned phosphor bronze wipers and soldered wires to the wipers to bypass that electrical path.
Regards, Vic B.
quote:Bob, well with Mantua the tender picks up on the left side. loco is right side. wheel sets must be insulated on one side. Wheels and axels must be the same size so they will fit nicely.
frank
Originally posted by toptrain - February 20 2022 : 06:40:21 AM
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Vic Bitleris
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Posted - February 21 2022 : 09:12:20 AM
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So, Intermountain 33" wheels - gotcha. Thanks guys.
Yes, for a long time now I've been aware that Mantua tenders are poor at electrical pickup, and with my Ephrata Valley custom steamers, I've fine tuned them so much to get the best out of the tenders (this includes cleaning/removing corrosion from the tender contact wheels, tops of both metal trucks/screw hole on bottom of metal tender base where trucks attach, place where the wire connects to tender) and I even put oil down in the points of the tender brass pickup wheels where they turn inside the trucks, but they still provide weak electrical pickup to the loco. I will try these wheels and see what type of improvement in performance I get. 
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in Heaven." - Matthew 5:16
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Posted - February 21 2022 : 5:08:08 PM
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Following this thread closely. I have a Pacific that's torn apart right now for remotoring with an NWSL kit, and any workable upgrades I can do on it before it gets DCC will be greatly appreciated.
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Posted - February 22 2022 : 1:27:13 PM
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quote:Following this thread closely. I have a Pacific that's torn apart right now for remotoring with an NWSL kit, and any workable upgrades I can do on it before it gets DCC will be greatly appreciated.
Originally posted by jward - February 21 2022 : 5:08:08 PM
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A while ago, I did a thread about some modifications to a Pacific. Not all of them will be appropriate to a DCC conversion, but there might be some ideas to glean from it.
http://www.tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16693
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elkski
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Posted - February 25 2022 : 4:48:34 PM
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I looked through an old childhood Ho train box a few weeks ago. Its a box of what's left after mom fell for some guy at one of her garage sells who asked about any old train sets and took all my super old engines I was gifted in the 60's. Sad to think what I lost. besides my 2-3 1960's diesels I only have a Santa Fe Mantua steamer and I couldn't get it to run on track. As a young kid I didn't have a chance to get it working. the motor now runs good when supplied power to the motor but I can't get a good electrical connection from the tender. It appears the axles have needle tips and have worn down so much I cant get a good contact from the brass wheel to the truck. I don't see a good way to remove these axles? and how would I get a new not worn longer axle into the trucks? it looks like the trucks on each side are pushed on and then a punch is used to lock them to the center cross member. Not sure how to get that off and also that is a janky electrical path. I see in this post that the intermountain 33" fit but I only see bulk 100 for sale? the connection between the truck and car is also a weak spot. there are brass washers but no spring or brushes? what the best solution? I'm just planning on running this engine around the xmas tree each year. I cant figure out how to add an image. I just get {img}?
Edited by - elkski on February 25 2022 5:05:27 PM
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Posted - February 25 2022 : 8:13:44 PM
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I have bent the steel truck bolsters and pulled out the old Mantua wheelsets, put in the Intermountains and straightened the truck bolsters. It takes some care to get the bolsters straight and level. Oil the axle ends to protect the Zamac bearings from arcing and corrosion. The brass washer between the truck and the tender frame is a big help. It's a better electrical connection than having the Zamac tender frame ride directly on the steel truck bolster. A little oil there will help, too.
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elkski
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Posted - February 25 2022 : 8:35:49 PM
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| I was able to get 1 axle out by stressing the bolsters apart. the tips look worn and rough. I am guessing it needs to be lubed a conductive oil? or perhaps graphite? not sure I am getting a good connection, what is a good ohm reading? 3? 30? 120? the truck seems a bit loose even with the brass washer. seems like it should be a wavy washer.
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Posted - February 25 2022 : 9:59:55 PM
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For oil, I usually use automatic transmission fluid. It doesn't have to be conductive. The axle will press through the oil and make the connection. It just keeps from arcing and oxidizing the metal.
I never put an ohm meter on it. There shouldn't be much resistance. If there is, there may be some old crusty oxidation to wear off.
The washer that usually comes with the engine is a wavy one.
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elkski
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Posted - February 26 2022 : 1:04:55 PM
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https://www.micromark.com/Kadee-593-Arch-Bar-Trucks
seems like this would be a better solution if they will fit. but a bit pricey.
hmm my washers are flat brass.
I can get anywhere from 3 to open circuit... its just not a good connection. I was able to get 1 axle out but it was the one wore short.. I would hate to break the bolsters. has anyone drilled out the centerpunch dimple and then used epoxy to hold them together?
I'm really not sure how this ever made good contact.. maybe the man who gave these old engines to me via my father had worked on it. I keep having sad thoughts of the many other old super heavy steam engines that made this one pale in comparison that were lost to that thief at the garage sale while I was away at collage.
how do I tell if its a 4-8-2 or 4-6-2? and what do those numbers mena?
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Posted - February 26 2022 : 2:08:33 PM
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Numbers like 4-6-2 refer to wheel arrangements. The system is called the Whyte Classification.
The first digit is the number wheels in the pilot truck.
The middle digit is the number of driving wheels.
The first digit is the number wheels in the trailing truck.
If there are 4 numbers, it's an articulated engine. For example, 4-8-8-4 would be 4 pilot wheels, a frame with 8 drive wheels articulated to another frame with drive wheels, and then a 4 wheel trailing truck.
In terms of electrical continuity, you might want to polish the metal where connections are made, like where the trucks swivel and, if you can get the wheelsets out, the bearings. It should be possible to put something a little abrasive such as toothpaste on a toothpick and rotate it around in the bearings, then thoroughly clean out all the abrasive, oil it up and put the wheelsets back in.
Some of the trucks have small notches in the bottom of the truck by the bearing holes, which would mean you wouldn't have to bend them as far to pull out the axles. Others do not. If you only got out one axle, you may not have those notches.
It may work to drill out the punched spot that holds the truck frame to the bolster. If you can think of an all metal way to reattach it, like a screw or a press fitted pin, that would conduct electricity better than epoxy.
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elkski
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Posted - February 26 2022 : 2:55:43 PM
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| just went to LHS and bought some Kadee592 33" pickups. will see if they work.
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Posted - February 26 2022 : 4:42:18 PM
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quote:just went to LHS and bought some Kadee592 33" pickups. will see if they work.
Originally posted by elkski - February 26 2022 : 2:55:43 PM
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A direct pickup, bypassing the truck and its moving parts is an approach that many swear by. I haven't done it on a Mantua, but I can't see why it shouldn't work.
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elkski
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Posted - February 26 2022 : 6:35:33 PM
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well I'm messing with mounting the first truck and its disappointing how the inconsistent the continuity is from the wire to a rail. I cleaned it with with white scotch bright and alcohol. even from the wire to the new trucks wheel as it rotates... hmmm I cleaned the wheel thinking three was a protective coating but not much help.. the 2nd truck appears better.
Now looking at my engine. not sure what model of Mantua I have but the current must go through the axels and then pass through a brass U bushing and into the frame and then into the motor. It really seems like this area needs conductive lube. I have read about mixing in graphite since I dont know if I have a conductive lube. I measure about 100 ohms on the engine so far.
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Posted - February 26 2022 : 7:03:47 PM
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I've greased the driver axles with anything from Vaseline to the nice Labelle 102 gear grease. The lubricant doesn't need to be anything special. On the engine, itself, you shouldn't have much resistance if the wheels are clean and there isn't some old dried up grease or obvious corrosion.
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elkski
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Posted - February 27 2022 : 11:25:28 AM
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| well its running my Mantua is now running.. seems strong and has good pull. IT would be nice to put some lights on it... I would have to drill like a 3/4" hole to get wires near the headlight. it would need to be like a .15" diameter or smaller to look good.
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Posted - April 14 2022 : 10:19:44 PM
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Just to update everybody, I did not forget about this thread. I did install Intermountain wheels on the tender trucks of my custom EVRR Mantua Berkshire, but hope to make a video in the near future, replacing the tender wheels on another one of my Mantua steam locomotives, in order to capture the difference in performance.
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in Heaven." - Matthew 5:16
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Posted - September 28 2023 : 02:04:30 AM
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Hey beg pardon I got interested reading this page and I would like to know if the Intermountain wheels will fit the General? I was never in love with the brass wheels and would like to keep upgrading.
This is my loco here, it uses parts from different eras of Mantua & Tyco like 1950s wheels and a 90s boiler.
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Posted - September 29 2023 : 7:14:13 PM
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quote:Hey beg pardon I got interested reading this page and I would like to know if the Intermountain wheels will fit the General? I was never in love with the brass wheels and would like to keep upgrading.
Originally posted by steamerthesteamtrain - September 28 2023 : 02:04:30 AM
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It looks like they should. In your picture, the wheelsets on the General are the same Mantua ones as are being replaced on the Berkshire, further up the thread. I've used them on the 2-axle trucks typical of the switcher and Prairie tenders.
I think the Intermountain wheel flanges are a little smaller, so it's very important that the drawbar is not lifting up on the tender. Take a look to see if the drawbar sits level between the locomotive and tender.
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