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 Mantua Tender Picking Up from Both Rails
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scsshaggy
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scsshaggy

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 Posted - January 29 2015 :  5:10:34 PM Link directly to this topic  Show Profile  Add scsshaggy to Buddylist
I like to modify my Mantua steam engines to pick up electricity on all the drive wheels. Since the engine is then picking up from both rails, it makes sense to change the tender to do the same.

One way to do this is to cut the frame and electrically isolate the two halves and then turn one truck around to pick up from the opposite rail. Step one, then, is to cut the frame and reassemble it with the two halves insulated from each other:

1) The frame is drilled with a #50 bit to put three screw holes in each half. Here's the frame with the holes drilled:

A plastic splint has been drilled with the same pattern of holes.

2) Now, the holes are tapped for 2-56 screws:


3) The plastic splint is test fitted:


4) With the splint removed, the frame is hacksawed in half, just inboard of one of the center cross braces:

I used to use a razor saw to keep the kerf to a minimum, but that wasn't necessary and would wear out razor saws too quickly.

5) The plastic splint is now put back on to restore the frame to its original alignment:

The splint should be stiff but not terribly brittle. The screws on the ends are 2-56 x 5/8". The four toward the center are 2-56 x 3/8".

6) A piece of plastic about as thick as the saw kerf is epoxied into the gap. This one was from a used-up Subway gift card that I roughed up with sand paper to give the epoxy something to grip besides slippery smooth plastic:


The epoxy is slow setting, so the project is now on hold at least until tomorrow while the glues sets. More to come, in the days to come.

Carpe Manana!
Edited by - scsshaggy on January 29 2015 5:12:25 PM
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Barry
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 Posted - January 29 2015 :  8:29:26 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Barry to Buddylist
Well I'll be interested in following this Don. I am curious about how much an improvement in performance one can expect to gain with this procedure. I "measure" [pretty imprecise I'm sure] performance changes in locomotives on my track by how much throttle I need to give them to do what I want. What makes it imprecise is that I don't measure the scale speed at the same time. I have measured/calculated scale speed with a stop watch in the past. So, by my crude measurements, it seems that I can get locomotives to run maybe 25% throttle when everything's just been cleaned, to 30% throttle without a load (tender only); then depending upon the load (seems like about 5 of those metal cars is about it before wheels start spinning), maybe 35 to 45% throttle. These throttle speeds are meant to describe how "slow" I can make the locomotive go. Anyway, for the sake of discussion.
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mytyco
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 Posted - January 29 2015 :  8:59:45 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add mytyco to Buddylist
Hi scsshaggy,


Very interesting. I will be watching your progress as well.

Thanks for sharing.


Mytyco

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scsshaggy
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 Posted - January 29 2015 :  11:00:04 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add scsshaggy to Buddylist
quote:
Well I'll be interested in following this Don. I am curious about how much an improvement in performance one can expect to gain with this procedure.
Originally posted by Barry - January 29 2015 :  8:29:26 PM


This is the seventh tender I've changed this way, so I already know the outcome. For a clean engine on clean track, it makes no difference in low speed control or efficiency.

Compared to the original design where the engine picks up power from one rail and the tender from the other, picking up power with all drivers forgives a little more dirt on the rail. The tender picking up on both rails supplements the engine's wheels so it's more forgiving on switches and rough track.

Taken together, the improvements in electrical pickup allow the engine to run on track that is not perfectly clean with very little sputtering and stalling. The wheels get dirty more slowly because arcing seems to bake dirt onto the wheels.

I've never really quantified it, but there's a noticeable reduction in stalling and sputtering, and in the need to clean wheels.

Carpe Manana!
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Darth Santa Fe
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 Posted - January 30 2015 :  01:19:57 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Darth Santa Fe to Buddylist
Very interesting way to improve the electrical pickup! That'll make it more like the steam engines from Spectrum, IHC, and other higher quality brands, so I can see how it'll make it run better. If you don't mind my asking though, why not just replace the half plastic Mantua wheels with all metal wheels and add wipers?
Darth Santa Fe, doing weird and challenging projects for the fun of it!

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scsshaggy
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 Posted - January 30 2015 :  08:19:26 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add scsshaggy to Buddylist
quote:
If you don't mind my asking though, why not just replace the half plastic Mantua wheels with all metal wheels and add wipers?
Originally posted by Darth Santa Fe - January 30 2015 :  01:19:57 AM


That would have the advantage of 4 more points of contact. This way, though, there aren't wires to the trucks potentially making them pivot less freely nor are there wipers to wear out or get bent up through mishandling. You might call it a timid approach.

I did change an MDC mogul so that it had a wire from the truck to the frame without any ill consequences, so it's probably less potential for trouble than I initially figured.

Carpe Manana!
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AMC_Gremlin_GT
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 Posted - January 30 2015 :  12:39:54 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Send AMC_Gremlin_GT an AOL message  Send AMC_Gremlin_GT a Yahoo! Message  Add AMC_Gremlin_GT to Buddylist
While I like the outcome, I can't say I like the mod which literally cuts the original chassis in half. It's your own tender, do what you like. But I think I'd personally rather modify the trucks for dual pick-up, than chop the frame in half to accomplish it. While I am certainly NOT a die-hard originalist, keep-it-stock guy, I don't think I'd go that far in modifying the original chassis. But an interesting variation for a more positive electrical pick-up.
One of my recent upgrades was to an all-metal Mantua RF-16 Sharknose, the front truck basically uses the end points of the axles for electrical transmission through the chassis, and that contact is dicey. I ended up installing some very thin copper mesh under each front axle inside the truck, so the copper lightly touched each axle shaft, and had more surface area as well. Before, the RF would jerk and surge, afterwards, it was slow but very smooth operating, as the electrical contact area had increased by a quantum leap. The friction is minimal, as the soft copper mesh doesn't put as much pressure on the axle shafts as a rigid contact would. I may use the copper mesh approach on other engines as well. Don't know how long ( hours of operation ) it will last, but I think it's a good solution for now.

Jerry

" When life throws you bananas...it's easy to slip up"
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Barry
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 Posted - January 30 2015 :  1:16:58 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Barry to Buddylist
"more like the steam engines from Spectrum, IHC, and other higher quality brands" . . . I'm curious now how these brands mentioned above pick up electricity?
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scsshaggy
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 Posted - January 30 2015 :  1:28:54 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add scsshaggy to Buddylist
quote:
"more like the steam engines from Spectrum, IHC, and other higher quality brands" . . . I'm curious now how these brands mentioned above pick up electricity?

Originally posted by Barry - January 30 2015 :  1:16:58 PM


I have an IHC Mogul. The tender picks up from both rails: one truck for the right and one for the left, then two wires connect it to the engine. The engine has little spring wipers in contact with the back side of the drivers, so all drivers do electrical pickup. I was taking a page from their book in modifying my Mantuas the way I do.

Carpe Manana!
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scsshaggy
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 Posted - January 30 2015 :  10:36:13 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add scsshaggy to Buddylist
Here's the next installment. The glue has set up and the plastic that fills the saw kerf has been trimmed flush with the frame. A wire has been added that will run from the back half of the tender to the screw that holds the drawbar on the engine. The truck is turned on the back half to contact the rail to which the engine frame is grounded.


Here's the underside.

The aforementioned wire is attached to the engine frame. The usual wire back from the engine attaches to the screw that holds the drawbar on the tender. The truck on the front half of the frame contacts the left rail electrically. In the engine's internal wiring, this connects to the left motor brush and to the pickup wipers on the left drivers.

Here's a more general view of the underside of the tender and the engine. The two are connected for testing. In the shot, you can also see that the tender needs some body work. It's missing the engineer's side ladder and a pilot step is broken off of the rear end beam.


Here, the tender frame sports a coat of primer. That'll be a day or two drying thoroughly. Note two of the screws used to hold the plastic splint on the frame were longer than usual. The one on the front half holds a piece of brass in place that keeps the wire to the engine from sagging and fouling the front truck. The one in back sticks down just ahead of the truck mounting bolster. These are good places to attach alligator clips for test running the engine upside down.


Now, I've got to wait for the primer to dry while I kick around ideas for fixing the broken parts on the shell.

Carpe Manana!
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Barry
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 Posted - January 30 2015 :  11:16:53 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Barry to Buddylist
Don, that's a nice tidy bit of work you did there. And also, for me, seeing how you did it with this tender, I now understand the electrical idea better. For some reason, the previous one you did using the wipers seemed foreign to me; maybe because the only time I tried to make some wipers, they didn't work and I gave up on the idea. I may have to review the wiper method, though, and try that. I just can't bring myself to cut up a tender frame yet. Yeah, so post some photos of the tender as you finish it. I'd like to see how the whole project turns out.
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Barry
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 Posted - January 31 2015 :  1:05:12 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Barry to Buddylist
Hey Don, I was just looking around for some baggage car doors when I came upon these trucks with attached pickup wire (Bethlehem Car Works). You ever have any experience with any of these products?

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scsshaggy
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 Posted - January 31 2015 :  1:54:39 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add scsshaggy to Buddylist
quote:
Hey Don, I was just looking around for some baggage car doors when I came upon these trucks with attached pickup wire (Bethlehem Car Works). You ever have any experience with any of these products?
Originally posted by Barry - January 31 2015 :  1:05:12 PM



No, I haven't ever worked with those. They look like the wipers are only picking up off of the axles, so I think they're just picking up on one rail. I assume that the truck frames are plastic and wouldn't conduct electricity through to the frame so the wire is needed.

Carpe Manana!
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scsshaggy
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 Posted - January 31 2015 :  11:45:48 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add scsshaggy to Buddylist
Today was spent making replacement parts for the broken parts on the tender shell.

1) One ladder is broken on the front.


2) One step is broken off of the end beam.


I made two ladders for the front. I didn't think I could replicate the good one very faithfully on the broken side, so I'll just replace both. The new ones are just boxed in ladder rungs. I made them by folding up thin brass into a box shape so the end is the bottom step. Then I added 3 more steps in the middle. The first time, I soldered in separate steps (a painful process). The second time, I cut a strip of thin copper as wide as the ladder steps and folded it so the steps stuck out, then soldered in the three steps as one unit. That's the redder ladder in the photo.

Also in the photo is a new set of end beam steps. These are on a copper cover that'll be glued over the molded on end beam. Also included is an uncoupling lever made of .020" wire. The steps are made of brass.

Neither the ladders nor the end steps are perfectly square and even, but by the time they're painted black, they should look okay by the 3-foot rule. Next comes installing the new parts, adding a coupler and priming the new parts.

Carpe Manana!
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JNXT 7707
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 Posted - February 01 2015 :  07:58:01 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add JNXT 7707 to Buddylist
That is some excellent work there sschaggy. Looks good!
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scsshaggy
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 Posted - February 01 2015 :  5:09:11 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add scsshaggy to Buddylist
Thanks for the kind words, Jerry.

The new parts are now epoxied onto the tender shell:


Those parts that need to be are clamped or braced in place while the epoxy sets up.

Carpe Manana!
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scsshaggy
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 Posted - February 09 2015 :  4:19:00 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add scsshaggy to Buddylist
The coupler pocket was missing and the hole for the small screw that holds it was stripped, so I drilled the hole and tapped it for a 2-56 screw and screwed on a Kadee coupler. The coupler and drawbar work best with the frame sitting just a little higher, so I added thin washers (home made from brass) between the frame and the trucks.


Here's the same view with both trucks mounted. Note that they pick up from opposite rails:


The trucks, wheels, body and frame are all painted black:


The coal pile has real coal. First I glued a layer to the plastic coal with Duco cement. When that was dry, I spread on some coal dust and some lumps and glued them down with diluted carpenter's glue. Also, the rear slope has been weathered some and water streaked below the manhole cover:


That about completes the project. The tender will be numbered when it is mated to an engine, which won't be right away. Meanwhile it'll be easier to store than a bunch of parts.

Carpe Manana!
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Barry
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 Posted - February 09 2015 :  8:28:10 PM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Barry to Buddylist
Very nice Don. I like the work you did on the tender steps; particularly the rear ones with the grab irons. I'm looking forward to photos of the whole package.
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Darth Santa Fe
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 Posted - February 11 2015 :  01:30:00 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add Darth Santa Fe to Buddylist
Very nice! Looks really clean!
Darth Santa Fe, doing weird and challenging projects for the fun of it!

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scsshaggy
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 Posted - February 11 2015 :  08:23:03 AM Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Add scsshaggy to Buddylist
Thanks, Barry and Darth, for the kind words.
Carpe Manana!
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